Penny Dreadful

[ArmsHeldOut]

^ I believe we're close to being on the same page, Killer. I just don't think one "takes the backseat" in allowing his/her true essence to emerge. Again, what you describe sounds more like a possession, whereas Vanessa -- in my humble opinion -- embraced the part of herself that is Amunet.

 

[Frodo]

I still can't believe Ethan left Vanessa. That's so unrealistic! Who the heck would refuse Eva Green?!

Even two 007's couldn't..Lol.

 

[KillerWolf]

Yes, but, regardless of what you've just shared -- some of which I agree with -- it isn't erroneous to regard Vanessa and Amunet as one and the same. When I mentioned Christ, I was specifically referring to one popular interpretation of the Trinity (I know there are many). Like Vanessa, prior to his ascension, Christ was very much a human being. While having obvious differences from God the Father, traditional Catholics perceive him as being not only divine but somehow the same in a way the human mind cannot understand.

It's important to note that Vanessa is not possessed (reincarnation is something altogether different). If anything, the finale shows that Vanessa embraced her inner self; and that's how she was able to triumph over the Devil.

^ I believe we're close to being on the same page, Killer. I just don't think one "takes the backseat" in allowing his/her true essence to emerge. Again, what you describe sounds more like a possession, whereas Vanessa -- in my humble opinion -- embraced the part of herself that is Amunet.

I get your point, and I do agree with it... I can see how it might look like I was describing a possession, though I was more or less referring to two natures living interchangeably within the same body/mind more than as one. As of now, that is. It is quite possible that mortal "Vanessa" part and pre-Vanessa Amunet part will completely merge into a more cohesive entity at some point. Could be, that like you suggested, that actually happened in the end and from now on she'll be Amunet on more conscious level. Perhaps that's why Ethan couldn't hurt her as his true inner nature (wolf of God) recognized her true inner nature on some level. Or perhaps he would recognize her as Amunet anyway and he was never able to hurt her, so he was storming out of the Joan's cottage for no real reason few episodes ago.

My point was more, Amunet/Vanessa relationship always seemed to manifest in a rather schizophrenic way, at least to me.

As for the reincarnation, I am actually quite familiar with many teachings regarding that concept. It might strike you as odd that I constantly refer to "two natures" when reincarnation teaches that it is the same soul/entity starting new life in different body, though, as you can guess, like with Christ's nature, there is more than one interpretation and teaching when it comes to it... still, general "rule" would be that even though Amunet that is reincarnated as Vanessa is the same entity that existed for centuries before, she is not entirely the pre-Vanessa Amunet, since she doesn't consciously remember her previous incarnations (or in case of Amunet - primeval life. I'll get to that later) and given the different life experiences or (more in line with hinduistic and buddhistic teachings) different Karma, due to her actions as "Vanessa".

It should be kept in mind that Amunet is a primordial goddess, so it is a bit of a game changer when it comes to the "reincarnation" part. She couldn't live in this world as human being from the beginning, so is it possible that she came from different realm altogether and Vanessa is her first reincarnation in human body?

I think that we in general do agree on most key points here. Thing being that we approach the matter somewhat differently.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I get your point, and I do agree with it... I can see how it might look like I was describing a possession, though I was more or less referring to two natures living interchangeably within the same body/mind more than as one. As of now, that is. It is quite possible that mortal "Vanessa" part and pre-Vanessa Amunet part will completely merge into a more cohesive entity at some point. Could be, that like you suggested, that actually happened in the end and from now on she'll be Amunet on more conscious level. Perhaps that's why Ethan couldn't hurt her as his true inner nature (wolf of God) recognized her true inner nature on some level. Or perhaps he would recognize her as Amunet anyway and he was never able to hurt her, so he was storming out of the Joan's cottage for no real reason few episodes ago.

Yes, that's partly what I'm trying to convey. With Vanessa, I feel that a process of gradual assimilation is at work. While two unique natures inhabit the same form, they are perhaps not terribly dissimilar from each other – at least not in the fictional narrative we’re being given. And those two natures I believe essentially became one (not necessarily for all time but just in the moment) during the climax of the season finale.

I didn’t so much get the sense of an internal struggle; to me, it seemed like Vanessa was playing possum. She played along with the Devil, allowing him to show all his cards; then she revealed her true power. “What makes you think I want to be normal?” As you’ll recall, a priest asked her the same in a previous episode. She already made her decision.

My point was more, Amunet/Vanessa relationship always seemed to manifest in a rather schizophrenic way, at least to me.

In earlier episodes, it did. I didn’t get that from the season finale.

As for the reincarnation, I am actually quite familiar with many teachings regarding that concept. It might strike you as odd that I constantly refer to "two natures" when reincarnation teaches that it is the same soul/entity starting new life in different body, though, as you can guess, like with Christ's nature, there is more than one interpretation and teaching when it comes to it... still, general "rule" would be that even though Amunet that is reincarnated as Vanessa is the same entity that existed for centuries before, she is not entirely the pre-Vanessa Amunet, since she doesn't consciously remember her previous incarnations (or in case of Amunet - primeval life. I'll get to that later) and given the different life experiences or (more in line with hinduistic and buddhistic teachings) different Karma, due to her actions as "Vanessa".

It doesn’t strike me as odd; and again, I wasn’t suggesting that the current incarnation of Amunet, i.e, Vanessa is not without her own divergent characteristics apart from the entity in its preexisting form. That said, the only thing I really took issue with in your original statement when you sought to correct another poster is the fact that you seemed to trivialize Vanessa’s involvement in vanquishing the Devil. By informing you that Vanessa and Amunet are one and the same, I wasn’t implying that they are entirely the same.

 

[BestGirl]

What an excellent finale. I was pleasantly surprised they escaped the witches' castle as soon as they did, since I figured they'd be stuck there the whole episode. Everything after they fled the witches was so touching.

Vanessa scaring the crap put of the Devil was incredible. Do NOT mess with her. I hope she isn't totally cut off from God the way the Cut Wife warned she'd be.

Mr. Lyle lives, YAY! I so figured he'd be a goner. And, yes, his line about not underestimating a queen was spectacular.

Lily terrifies me. She'll be a great villain in season 3.

I'm so glad to see people jumping onto the Caliban bandwagon. I've always been rather sympathetic to him and, in spite of everything he's done, believed there was some good in him. I hope he comes back from the arctic. His friendship with Vanessa was so moving.

How are they going to get Ethan back to London? Its not like the authorities will just let him go.

I hope Sir Malcolm grows his beard back.

The only thing I can't figure out is why they left Vanessa alone in that house at the end. What if some evil entity came back for her?

 

[KillerWolf]

Yes, that's partly what I'm trying to convey. With Vanessa, I feel that a process of gradual assimilation is at work. While two unique natures inhabit the same form, they are perhaps not terribly dissimilar from each other – at least not in the fictional narrative we’re being given. And those two natures I believe essentially became one (not necessarily for all time but just in the moment) during the climax of the season finale.

I think you might be right about this... there have been some clues, like black nightgown someone already mentioned and such.... though there is one trait of Vanessa I believe must be dissimilar to Amunet that has remained in the finale after her presumable assimilation, which puzzles me - she seemed upset that she lost connection with god and Christianity. Why would Amunet care for another god like that and especially a religion that is so much younger than her?

I guess, that it could be that it was more of her saying goodbye to her former self and beliefs she now knows do not befit her and that is why she was upset about it. So she didn't lost connection with god because she opened the book and that somehow tainted her, but because it brought her closer to her true nature. That would make a scene of her burning the cross having a bit different meaning.

What do you think?

I didn’t so much get the sense of an internal struggle; to me, it seemed like Vanessa was playing possum. She played along with the Devil, allowing him to show all his cards; then she revealed her true power. “What makes you think I want to be normal?” As you’ll recall, a priest asked her the same in a previous episode. She already made her decision.

I think you are right. And, yeah, I do recall this. I liked how we returned to that point from the last season's finale.

In earlier episodes, it did. I didn’t get that from the season finale.

True.

It doesn’t strike me as odd; and again, I wasn’t suggesting that the current incarnation of Amunet, i.e, Vanessa is not without her own divergent characteristics apart from the entity in its preexisting form. That said, the only thing I really took issue with in your original statement when you sought to correct another poster is the fact that you seemed to trivialize Vanessa’s involvement in vanquishing the Devil. By informing you that Vanessa and Amunet are one and the same, I wasn’t implying that they are entirely the same.

Yeah, this whole conversation have gotten a bit out of hand from the reason behind your reply - correcting my initial post, which I accept and agree with.

Still, I do enjoy our little discussion here.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I think you might be right about this... there have been some clues, like black nightgown someone already mentioned and such.... though there is one trait of Vanessa I believe must be dissimilar to Amunet that has remained in the finale after her presumable assimilation, which puzzles me - she seemed upset that she lost connection with god and Christianity. Why would Amunet care for another god like that and especially a religion that is so much younger than her?

I guess, that it could be that it was more of her saying goodbye to her former self and beliefs she now knows do not befit her and that is why she was upset about it. So she didn't lost connection with god because she opened the book and that somehow tainted her, but because it brought her closer to her true nature. That would make a scene of her burning the cross having a bit different meaning.

What do you think?

Good question. When I say they became one, I believe that Vanessa merely embraced the part of herself that is Amunet. Rather than one side taking the backseat, they instead joined hands – figuratively speaking. Do you know what I mean? They formed an alliance. That isn’t to say that Vanessa’s human nature and recent life experiences were canceled out in the process. To me, it just means that both aspects of the entity found a way to co-exist and perhaps even evolve, incorporating both the old and the new. It may not be a perfect union for some of the reasons you describe, but – for now – it seems to work.

I think you are right. And, yeah, I do recall this. I liked how we returned to that point from the last season's finale.

Was it from last season's finale? Even more fitting then.

Yeah, this whole conversation have gotten a bit out of hand from the reason behind your reply - correcting my initial post, which I accept and agree with.

Still, I do enjoy our little discussion here.

Indeed; and I agree. I welcome good discussion, especially in the absence of any real news pertaining to BvS.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I suddenly felt a need to look this up. t:

[YT]uzDCu1uiEj0[/YT]

 

[KillerWolf]

Good question. When I say they became one, I believe that Vanessa merely embraced the part of herself that is Amunet. Rather than one side taking the backseat, they instead joined hands – figuratively speaking. Do you know what I mean? They formed an alliance. That isn’t to say that Vanessa’s human nature and recent life experiences were canceled out in the process. To me, it just means that both aspects of the entity found a way to co-exist and perhaps even evolve, incorporating both the old and the new. It may not be a perfect union for some of the reasons you describe, but – for now – it seems to work.



Was it from last season's finale? Even more fitting then.



Indeed; and I agree. I welcome good discussion, especially in the absence of any real news pertaining to BvS.

Yeah, I get what you mean and I like this. Once again, I think you're right about this.


And, yup. It was actually the last scene of season 1.

Priest: "So, my question is... do you really want to be normal?"

Cut to Vanessa thinking, then opening her mouth to answer. Fade to black.

That's how the season ended, and I actually meant to complain that they never returned to this part, but, as it happens, they did so in a more interesting way.

I suddenly felt a need to look this up. t:

[YT]uzDCu1uiEj0[/YT]

Now that's some surreal s**t.

I must say I am disappointed that he didn't snap Superman's neck in the end. t:

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

And, yup. It was actually the last scene of season 1.

Priest: "So, my question is... do you really want to be normal?"

Cut to Vanessa thinking, then opening her mouth to answer. Fade to black.

That's how the season ended, and I actually meant to complain that they never returned to this part, but, as it happens, they did so in a more interesting way.

Nice. For some reason, I thought that scene took place in one of the earlier episodes from Season One.

Yeah, they likely had it planned that way from the start.

Now that's some surreal s**t.

I must say I am disappointed that he didn't snap Superman's neck in the end. t:

That's in the extended version, complete with alternate endings!

BTW, did you know that someone we know was in attendance at the Penny Dreadful panel from last year's Comic-Con? Any guesses? lol

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=29363149&postcount=294

 

[KillerWolf]

Nice. For some reason, I thought that scene took place in one of the earlier episodes from Season One.

Yeah, they likely had it planned that way from the start.

It would seem that way.

That's in the extended version, complete with alternate endings!

BTW, did you know that someone we know was in attendance at the Penny Dreadful panel from last year's Comic-Con? Any guesses? lol

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=29363149&postcount=294

Oh, for f's sake!

I knew it even before I clicked on the link. t:

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Oh, for f's sake!

I knew it even before I clicked on the link. t:

 

[KillerWolf]

As a matter of fact, now I remember when he made that post. I was here, logged in, hoping for some pics and news from posters that are at SDCC. Including... yes... TNN.

 

[Roose Bolton]

http://au.ign.com/articles/2015/07/06/penny-dreadful-creator-breaks-down-the-season-2-finale

IGN: One more now. What about Dracula? Not that that's the name he'll be called on the show, but I really did like the explanation, from a few weeks back, about the Fallen Angel being severed in two. And so will be meet the Earthly Half?

Logan: Yes. The central idea of the show, as I mentioned, is the character of Vanessa Ives. And the cosmology around her, the world around her, expanded a lot this season. And that part about the fallen angel, or the fallen angel's brother, will definitely play a part next season.

t:

 

[kedrell]

Well, that was a dissatisfying end to an otherwise good season. It's like True Detective season 1 all over again.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

It'll be interesting next season how everyone will be brought back together.

 

[KillerWolf]

I guess they won't be until mid/late into season... I am also curious where they'll film New Mexico scenes...?

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Anyone know when shooting starts for season 3?

 

[KillerWolf]

I don't think they released it yet.

By the way, here's a nice interview with Logan regarding season's finale and upcoming season 3:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/penny-dreadful-season-3-finale-806786

Also, this quote goes in line with what ArmsHeldOut and myself have been talking about:

"The scorpion is her spirit animal, which she uses to protect herself. It becomes an all-purpose symbol for Vanessa. What the scorpion suggests to me is that she is being powered by this dark, frightening thing within her. When it melts into her hand, this isn't a gross shocking thing; this is her accepting the dark part of herself. She knows from the minute she accepts this scorpion and it gently melts into her, her destiny is set to that cross burning. Vanessa has accepted the complexity and duality of who she is. She is partly angel and partly monster, as are we all. And that finally is what the series is about."

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

As much as that scene made me shudder, I have to agree with that quote. Makes me love Vanessa even more.

 

[Bat Brain]

I kind of want to audition as an extra for next season.

 

[KillerWolf]

As much as that scene made me shudder, I have to agree with that quote. Makes me love Vanessa even more.

Indeed. And it is always interesting when someone who was devotedly religious gets to the point of having to live without that faith and predetermined system of beliefs. It makes all the future actions and ethics more individual, more personal, everything sort of falls on your shoulders - there is no god to judge, punish and award you accordingly anymore. No faith to give you feeling of certainty and sanctuary in dark moments. It can destroy or strengthen the character. At least, that's how I see it.

I kind of want to audition as an extra for next season.

Hey, that would be cool. Do let us know if you do so.

 

[kvz5]

IMO Vanessa is one of the best written female characters in TV right now. It's amazing how she doesn't just cater to one end of the spectrum. She's not just a pretty damsel in distress who's there to further a male character's story but at the same time she's not some heartless/cold female warrior type of character either who's all but scrubbed of any type of emotions that's usually used to depict weakness in a woman.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Yes. I totally agree with your post, Kvz5 I couldn't have said it any better than you

 

[KillerWolf]

@Kvz5
Well put, man with the best avatar ever, well put. t:

She is one of the best written female character I've seen in a long time. She feels like a real character. A very strong one at that.

@DarknessOfDeath
I love your avatar as well. t: