Perversion of Liberty

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Imposing yourself on another is abusing the system based on freedom of speech. The system does not imply that physical imposition is allowed, but this statue does just that. It is a physical message, not a verbal one.

Ridiculous.
That tacky statue is "physically imposing" their beliefs on me?

 

[Speedball]

I wish I could put the Statue of Liberty in a hula skirt on the dashboard of my car so it looks like it's dancing.

That would be great!
It would still be patriotic.
I'd buy one.

 

[Emrys]

They declare that Christianity is the official type of religion of the U.S.
Whatever happened to the first of amendment, and the FREEDOM OF RELIGION!
The U.S. will never have an official religion because it will violate this amendment.

And that's the hub, they are perverting the ideal of america with their fundamental religious bull****. Liberty also means that you're free from religions who want to codify their ideology into the law of the land and to use the Statue of Liberty in such a stunt is a perversion of the very idea of Liberty.

 

[jaguarr]

Religion changes these kinds of situations, because religions are not "mind-sets" or "plan of action". They are beliefs through the form of groups or cults.

Imposing yourself on another is abusing the system based on freedom of speech. The system does not imply that physical imposition is allowed, but this statue does just that. It is a physical message, not a verbal one.

Actually, the statue, as ugly and offensive as it is, is a physical manifestation of this group's free speech rights and is protected under the same principles that allow political cartoonists and satirists, controversial artists like Serrano and Maplethorpe, and even filmmakers to do what they do.

jag

 

[jaguarr]

I disagree. While I won't argue that there isn't a side-benefit in bringing in funds (some will send donations because they support thie ideas of this church, but I don't know how much membership increase will really occur), I think there is sincere belief in the ideas they're expressing. I don't think it's a 'stunt' to get money... attention to their 'cause', or 'beliefs' - yes, but I think the money is secondary.

They have to pay for the expansions of their roller rink, bowling alley and bookstore somehow.

jag

 

[Daisy]

Religion changes these kinds of situations, because religions are not "mind-sets" or "plan of action". They are beliefs through the form of groups or cults.

Imposing yourself on another is abusing the system based on freedom of speech. The system does not imply that physical imposition is allowed, but this statue does just that. It is a physical message, not a verbal one.

I'm sorry Sofa, you're wrong. You have a very poor understanding of First Amendment law.

There are numerous court cases all the way up to the Supreme Court where 'non-verbal' speech (physical actions [i.e. burning books, flags, bras, etc.], art, etc.) are shown to be protected by the First Amendendment. This falls under that. Furthermore, the First Amendment prohibits the government from interfering in the 'free exercise' of religion. Part of most religions is proselytizing and attempting to convert others. So long as religions remaing within the law (not use public funding, no coersion, kidnapping, etc.), they are free to do so.

This is VERY MUCH protected.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

whichever way you choose to look at it, the pastor is a moron.

"I decree the spirit of conviction on this intersection," Mr. Williams boomed from a podium decorated with red, white and blue bunting. "This statue proves that Jesus Christ is Lord over America, he is Lord over Tennessee, he is Lord over Memphis."

The Elvis dummy in the wax museum proves that Elvis is lord of Las Vegas!!!

 

[Daisy]

They declare that Christianity is the official type of religion of the U.S.
Whatever happened to the first of amendment, and the FREEDOM OF RELIGION!
The U.S. will never have an official religion because it will violate this amendment.

They can declare that they think it should be all they want. That's their right. Freedom of speech allows for that.

They, however, are not the government, therefore, they have no power to decare that Christianity IS the official religion of the US, therefore it does not violate the 'establishment' clause.

Preventing them from making their statement, however, would not only violate their right to freedom of speech, but also the 'free exercise' clause of the first amendment.

 

[jaguarr]

Ridiculous.
That tacky statue is "physically imposing" their beliefs on me?

Exactly. It tells me that they have poor taste and are unable to formulate convincing, reasonable arguments in support of their beliefs so they have to resort to cheap publicity stunts to get attention, but it doesn't tell me that I have to believe their doctrine.

jag

 

[Daisy]

They have to pay for the expansions of their roller rink, bowling alley and bookstore somehow.

jag

Are you suggesting that they don't believe in what they say the statue symoblizes?

 

[jaguarr]

Are you suggesting that they don't believe in what they say the statue symoblizes?

I believe the statue represents their wanting to gain as much attention for their church as possible, not necessarily that it really represents "Jesus = liberty" like they are saying. Maybe some or all of them believe it at some level, but I think they believe in the attention and controversy it will bring more than the message they say it represents. It's all supposition on my part, of course.

jag

 

[Daisy]

And that's the hub, they are perverting the ideal of america with their fundamental religious bull****. Liberty also means that you're free from religions who want to codify their ideology into the law of the land and to use the Statue of Liberty in such a stunt is a perversion of the very idea of Liberty.

True liberty allows that they have the right to put forth their ideas as much as you have to put for yours.

To suggest that they don't is as much a perversion of liberty as their 'statement'.

 

[Daisy]

I believe the statue represents their wanting to gain as much attention for their church as possible, not necessarily that it really represents "Jesus = liberty" like they are saying. Maybe some or all of them believe it at some level, but I think they believe in the attention and controversy it will bring more than the message they say it represents. It's all supposition on my part, of course.

jag

Perhaps I just have a more benign, childlike view of zealots.

Well, at least zealots that put up really tacky Christian Liberty statues... other zealots... not so much.

 

[jaguarr]

Perhaps I just have a more benign, childlike view of zealots.

Well, at least zealots that put up really tacky Christian Liberty statues... other zealots... not so much.

I've been subjected to zealots of too many religious and ideological flavors in my life to not think that they always have an underlying agena (often involving money, coincidentally). Call me jaded if you will.

I do agree, however, that it is a perversion of liberty to want to silence people who have views different from your own.

jag

 

[Emrys]

True liberty allows that they have the right to put forth their ideas as much as you have to put for yours.

To suggest that they don't is as much a perversion of liberty as their 'statement'.

I never said they don't have the right, I however have they right to call it what it is, a perversion.

However you can be sure of one thing, that the people who put this filthy thing up are they first who would cry foul if a pride parade was soliticed for their town.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Lol, their concept of "Liberation Through Christ" is a hoot.
Christians are some of the least "free" people of all.

They're not free to make up their own minds regarding things of which Jesus spoke.
They're not free to have sex out of wedlock, or even to lust after another person.
They're not free to use the "F" word like I am.
They're not free to labor on the Sabbath.
They're not free to tell lies, to punch anyone in the face...

They live in a universe of restrictions.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Lol, their concept of "Liberation Through Christ" is a hoot.
Christians are some of the least "free" people of all.

They're not free to make up their own minds regarding things of which Jesus spoke.
They're not free to have sex out of wedlock, or even to lust after another person.
They're not free to use the "F" word like I am.
They're not free to labor on the Sabbath.
They're not free to tell lies, to punch anyone in the face...

They live in a universe of restrictions.

Minor things compared to the thing that christians consider themselves freed from.

 

[Daisy]

I've been subjected to zealots of too many religious and ideological flavors in my life to not think that they always have an underlying agena (often involving money, coincidentally). Call me jaded if you will.

I do agree, however, that it is a perversion of liberty to want to silence people who have views different from your own.

jag

I've generally felt that it has more to do with power - the power to make the world around you the way you personally want it to be. Money is just a means to that. Also, that many 'believe their own hype' (i.e. they truly believe that if everyone followed their direction/beliefs, 'utopia' would follow). Further, that is frequently what ends up leading to their downfall.

I guess that's what I mean when I say the money is secondary. That it's more important to get people to believe in order to carry out the group's bidding. Money is one of the pieces that makes that happen, but it's not the ultimate goal.

Upon reflection... that's really not so benign, is it?

Strangely enough, I never think of myself as jaded.

 

[Emrys]

Minor things compared to the thing that christians consider themselves freed from.

Personaly if I'm given the choice to do all those things and end up in hell the choice isn't a tough one to make. I only have to ask myself, where are all the people throughout history whom I respect the most and then I know where I want to end up.

 

[Emrys]

I'm really curious what those sweeties would say if someone gets the idea to make a statue of Jesus in leather bondage cloth and parade him around the next pride parade. God woudl I love to read their statements.

 

[jaguarr]

I've generally felt that it has more to do with power - the power to make the world around you the way you personally want it to be. Money is just a means to that. Also, that many 'believe their own hype' (i.e. they truly believe that if everyone followed their direction/beliefs, 'utopia' would follow). Further, that is frequently what ends up leading to their downfall.

I guess that's what I mean when I say the money is secondary. That it's more important to get people to believe in order to carry out the group's bidding. Money is one of the pieces that makes that happen, but it's not the ultimate goal.

Upon reflection... that's really not so benign, is it?

Strangely enough, I never think of myself as jaded.

You're certainly right about a quest for power and a desire to mold the world in their own image being a very primary motive. However, I've seen many of them lose sight of that rather heady prospect once they start amassing cash intended to be in support of that and somehow the money starts to become the focus. It's like a drug. And in any case, no...it's not so benign.

jag

 

[JewishHobbit]

Personaly if I'm given the choice to do all those things and end up in hell the choice isn't a tough one to make. I only have to aks myself where are all the people throughout history whom I respect the most and then I know where I want to end up.

Your stupidy never ceases to amaze me. You don't even have an understanding of sin and hell and you go making dumb statements like that.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm really curious what those sweeties would say if someone gets the idea to make a statue of Jesus in leather bondage cloth and parade him around the next pride parade. God woudl I love to read their statements.

I'd say it's a differant situation as that would be nothing but a stab at the religion. THis statue isn't a stab at the country or anything of that nature. It's a differant situation.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

I'm really curious what those sweeties would say if someone gets the idea to make a statue of Jesus in leather bondage cloth and parade him around the next pride parade. God woudl I love to read their statements.

I don't think that works so well because in a parade you have to be given a permit by the city government, public streets are closed down, etc.
Their stupid statue is not a city-sanctioned obstruction of traffic. Nor does it make any loud noises, I hope.

 

[JewishHobbit]

You're certainly right about a quest for power and a desire to mold the world in their own image being a very primary motive. However, I've seen many of them lose sight of that rather heady prospect once they start amassing cash intended to be in support of that and somehow the money starts to become the focus. It's like a drug. And in any case, no...it's not so benign.

jag

What in the world are you talking about a quest for power? You think we're trying to get a preacher to become ruler of the world or something? Christians do what they do because they want people to believe as they do, not for whatever it gets them here, but because they want that person to be in heaven with them. There's been people who do as you say, but that's definately not the majority of christians in the slightest.... rather a signifigantly small number, most of which simply use the christian name for an excuse.