Perversion of Liberty

[Emrys]

Thing is... he's given the facts. It's in the bible. People like me tell you about it... and we'll continue to tell you and emrys and others about it until the day you die. You are well informed and you cannot use ignorance as an excuse. You can go and read up on the end times in detail if you choose. I can tell you a bit of what Heaven will be like, and I can tell you a bit of what Hell will be like... and if you decide to not go the heaven route... then you've made an informed choice. Just because you choose to be ignorant and not believe something that you don't want to be true... doesn't mean you get a pass. It means you've made a bad choice and that you must live with the circumstances. And don't say that God's a sadistic God for sending you there, he's trying to get you out of there now, in the past, and in the future. He tries every time I talk to you and every time someone else talks to you about it. He's trying... it's your fault that you choose where to go. It's your choice.

Oh he's a sadist allright. I have seen his rules cause too much misery to my loved ones. His conditions are simply put unacceptable and therfore I and my friends won't follow them even if it would cost our live.

 

[JewishHobbit]

What I am saying is that there are people associated with organized religion who seek power. See the Catholic Church and Evangelical Baptists for reference. Not ALL Christians have this unhealthy lust for power, and that is not what I have been saying. However, imposing belief systems on people in any fashion with the intent of conversion does represent a desire for a certain type of power, regardless of the underlying intent behind it. It's not necessarily evil (though that's an incredibly subjective word that everyone is going to interpret differently), but it is a desire for power.

Hmm, I guess you can say it's a desire for power to an extent.. but not with ill intent attached to it. I know hundreds of christians and not a one of them want power. They want what their belief says is right, but with no ill intent to go with it. With the exception of maybe one christian I remember meeting, the rest simply want people to know the joy that they've found. No power hungry people there.

How does dressing the Statute of Liberty up with a cross and saying the things that they did about it honor God? It doesn't. It's a thumb across the nose at secular America and it was done to get a rise out of people, plain and simple. No, not everything is done to get a rise out of people, but this most certainly was.

jag

Eh, I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree on it then.

 

[Emrys]

You won't have a choice. If Satan has to bow, what chance to you have?

the chance of any free mind, he might force my body but my mind and spirit remains defiant.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

you can count real high. teach me?


Ps- someone should go climb the status and replace the cross with a giant bong.

You're clearly not ready, my young padawan learner.

And if someone puts a bong up there, some one else should tye dye the robes while they're at it.

 

[Daisy]

Lol, their concept of "Liberation Through Christ" is a hoot.
Christians are some of the least "free" people of all.

They're not free to make up their own minds regarding things of which Jesus spoke.
They're not free to have sex out of wedlock, or even to lust after another person.
They're not free to use the "F" word like I am.
They're not free to labor on the Sabbath.
They're not free to tell lies, to punch anyone in the face...

They live in a universe of restrictions.

Actually, Christians are free to do those things. They just aren't free to do them without consequences... and to varying degrees, neither are you.

I can only speak for mainline liberal Protestants, but:

They are encouraged to read/interpret the bible for themselves, as well as to use their own judgement regarding moral questions.

They're free to have sex out of wedlock and lust after others (that's not going to send you to hell in liberal Protestantism), but they have to bear the consequences of their actions (possible pregnancy, disease, emotional damage, etc.).

They're free to use the "F" word, but risk offending someone or being thought 'less intelligent' by others.

They're free to labor on the Sabbath, but risk having a sore back Monday morning.

They're free to tell lies, but risk getting caught out.

They're free to punch anyone in the face, but risk getting punched back or sent to jail, or something else.

Doing any of those things won't get someone barred from salvation so long as they believe in Christ, acknowledge they're a sinner and ask to be forgiven for it (and they don't have to keep track of their specific sins, just acknowledge it in general).

Granted, one is encouraged not to do those sorts of things and to try one's best to follow Christ's example of living a 'virtuous' live, but it's recognized that by in being human, it is simply impossible for one to do so completely.

So, Christians can do them, they just aren't encouraged to (and with the exception of the first one - most people - Christian or not - aren't generally encouraged to do them).

 

[JewishHobbit]

If you raised your daughter properly, then you wouldn't have to worry about her becoming a stripper, regardless of how many strip joints she grew up around.

I agree, but it's always good to get rid of the possibility. Christians will fight it, but then so will non-christians. It's a decency thing, not a religions thing. A strip club went up in my town back before I was a christian and I was strongly against it, even back then. It's all about decency and respect to the community.

 

[jaguarr]

Hmm, I guess you can say it's a desire for power to an extent.. but not with ill intent attached to it. I know hundreds of christians and not a one of them want power. They want what their belief says is right, but with no ill intent to go with it. With the exception of maybe one christian I remember meeting, the rest simply want people to know the joy that they've found. No power hungry people there.

But you're only equating power with evil. All I'm saying is that power is desired, regardless of the intent. Some would say that wanting power to help ensure that their beliefs are given prominence and more credence as being right IS somewhat evil, though, because it's usually highly exclusionary and prejudice against people who have different beliefs. The issue I have with any religious organization that wants to spread their beliefs is that they just won't take "no" for an answer. They won't respect the right of other people to believe what they want to believe and I find that offensive.

jag

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh he's a sadist allright. I have seen his rules cause too much misery to my loved ones. His conditions are simply put unacceptable and therfore I and my friends won't follow them even if it would cost our live.

His rules aren't hard at all. In fact they're pretty easy. I've never had much problem with them.. what are you, a wuss

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Yepp! and the most funny thing is they actually insulted the founding fathers who where all staunch secularists. It's hillarious, christians are the most anti-american people out there theses days.

Don't I know it! Part of the problem is that many of these people don't actually, um...READ.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" - Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
​

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi - John Adams

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." - Abraham Lincoln

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." - Benjamin Franklin

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” - George Washington


​

 

[maxwell's demon]

Oooh! Oooh! I want to see Mickey Mouse wrapped in a shroud with nail wounds on his hands and feet and a crown of thorns on his head!

jag

someone should really make a line of these things. they'd make SO much money. take every corporate cartoon logo charcter out ther eand refashion them as christlike figures...even better- take them and fashion them as all the *different* world religions!

then take the original religous icons and refashion them as those same corporate logo chracters!

imagine jesus christ with mickey mouse ears going "huh hah!"!
vishnu as the coco-puffs bird!

 

[Emrys]

Hmm, I guess you can say it's a desire for power to an extent.. but not with ill intent attached to it. I know hundreds of christians and not a one of them want power. They want what their belief says is right, but with no ill intent to go with it. With the exception of maybe one christian I remember meeting, the rest simply want people to know the joy that they've found. No power hungry people there.

No ill will? Hahaha that's a hoot tell that to all the people who were burned as witches, tell that to all the believers of different religions through the centuries who ended up experiencing "christian love" before they ended up on graves. Lemme tell you what me and people like me think of you "wanting what your belief says is right". We ****ing don't care what you want this is not your world and we got the same right to want what we consider right than you do and if you guys try to take that away prepare for a **** storm that makes wwII look like a kindergartens day out.

 

[maxwell's demon]

Actually, Christians are free to do those things....

 

[Emrys]

His rules aren't hard at all. In fact they're pretty easy. I've never had much problem with them.. what are you, a wuss

Sorry but I like to have sex with male and female I don't give a rat's ass about marriage and many of my best friends are gay, your rules forbid all that.

 

[Emrys]

I agree, but it's always good to get rid of the possibility. Christians will fight it, but then so will non-christians. It's a decency thing, not a religions thing. A strip club went up in my town back before I was a christian and I was strongly against it, even back then. It's all about decency and respect to the community.

Sorry bur I see absolutely nothing indecent about a strip joint. On the other hand I'm not a christian so therefore I don't have that antiquated mindset about morality.

 

[maxwell's demon]

Don't I know it! Part of the problem is that many of these people don't actually, um...READ.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" - Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
​

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi - John Adams

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." - Abraham Lincoln

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." - Benjamin Franklin

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” - George Washington


​

one thing to keep in mind, though, with a lot of those quotes- is the context in which they were said. back then religion had MUCH more of a stranglehold on govermnent, etc. than it does today (yes, EVEN today). it was a whole differnt ballgame.

Now i agree to some extent with some of what's said in those quotes, but honestly, the same is true of any mode of thought and/or belief.

 

[Daisy]

I LOVE that book. I still have my copy... on my bookshelf. I was just reading a story in it a couple weeks ago, and I sing songs from it all the time.

Christopher John he mowed the lawn
And Agatha Fry helped rake it

Agatha Fry she made a pie
And Christopher John helped bake it

Zachary Zug took out the rug
And Jennifer Joy helped shake it

Jennifer Joy she made a toy
And Zachary Zug helped break it

Now some kind of help is the kind of help
That helpings all about

And some kind of help is the kind of help
We all could do without



Most kids that come in contact with me end up hearing stories from it like "Atalanta" or "Ladies First" ("I am a pretty, sweet young thing... " "And she was! BURP!" ).

I had the record too... Alan Alda participated on a couple of them.

 

[jaguarr]

Sorry bur I see absolutely nothing indecent about a strip joint. On the other hand I'm not a christian so therefore I don't have that antiquated mindset about morality.

Emrys, keep it civil. There's no need to be insulting.

jag

 

[Addendum]

This "statue" is just another piece of kitsch along Winchester in my town.

I've seen it in person once, and just started laughing.

They have a right to build it on their land, thinking it will somehow mean an increase in their membership when all it does is garner laughter from those in Memphis who are atheist, such as myself

 

[Sofa]

Im am not saying that it is not protected. I never said any of those words. I just think that it is a perversion of liberty, simply because it regards a religious group utilizing a physical symbol that has no relation to christianity to impose their beliefs on how things should indeed be. Choosing the statue of liberty, a symbol that is close to American hearts as a reminder of who they are as a nation is insulting and yes, imposing.

Im not American either, but there's something wrong with using such a bbig symbol and twisting it around to one's liking.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Daisy, that may be the view of "liberal protestants", but it's not at all what's taught in the Bible.
Remember, Jesus stopped them from stoning the adulteress, but everyone always forgets that he told her to "Go forth and SIN NO MORE."

To "repent" doesn't mean to say "sorry."
It means "a turning away" from your old ways.
If you're, say, living with someone out of wedlock, you aren't a "Christian", despite the fact that you may use the label for yourself, because Jesus didn't "strongly suggest" that you shouldn't do that.
He forbade it.
He said that at the judgment many would claim to be his followers and call him Lord, but he would say "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Apparently many of those people will be "liberal protestants".

 

[maxwell's demon]

I LOVE that book. I still have my copy... on my bookshelf. I was just reading a story in it a couple weeks ago, and I sing songs from it all the time.

Christopher John he mowed the lawn
And Agatha Fry helped rake it

Agatha Fry she made a pie
And Christopher John helped bake it

Zachary Zug took out the rug
And Jennifer Joy helped shake it

Jennifer Joy she made a toy
And Zachary Zug helped break it

Now some kind of help is the kind of help
That helpings all about

And some kind of help is the kind of help
We all could do without



Most kids that come in contact with me end up hearing stories from it like "Atalanta" or "Ladies First" ("I am a pretty, sweet young thing... " "And she was! BURP!" ).

I had the record too... Alan Alda participated on a couple of them.

nobody seems to want to help anyone else these days. it makes me cry sometimes

 

[JewishHobbit]

No ill will? Hahaha that's a hoot tell that to all the people who were burned as witches, tell that to all the believers of different religions through the centuries who ended up experiencing "christian love" before they ended up on graves. Lemme tell you what me and people like me think of you "wanting what your belief says is right". We ****ing don't care what you want this is not your world and we got the same right to want what we consider right than you do and if you guys try to take that away prepare for a **** storm that makes wwII look like a kindergartens day out.

Ooh, scary. Let me regain my composure. Okay, I'm good now.

Anyhow... last I checked, none of my friends have burnt any 'witches' at the stake. Last I checked, I haven't met anyone who killed someone for having a different belief. Somehow, the mistakes of people of the past equates the desires and crimes of us all? Then I'm assume that secular people all have the same mindset. I'm assuming that you support the idea of killing people for their beliefs or race? Heck you just threatened WW2 on me, so I assume that you think Hitler was a wonderful man with ingenious ideas. I'm assuming that you are like other secular dictators of the past who decided to take over the world, darn secularists. I suppose Jeffrey Dommer, or however you spell it, represents all people who do not worship God. Had any human rib lately? If you aren't represented by all the non-religious people in the world... why would I be represented by all other religious people of the world? Heck... I'm assuming that you believe all white people to be racist, and all black people to be poor and uneducated?

Dude, we're individuals. Get use to that.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Don't I know it! Part of the problem is that many of these people don't actually, um...READ.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" - Thomas Jefferson

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
​

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." - John Adams

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi - John Adams

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." - Abraham Lincoln

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." - Benjamin Franklin

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." - Thomas Paine

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” - George Washington


​

Feel free to post quotes by these same people supporting God. They're out there too.

 

[Emrys]

Emrys, keep it civil. There's no need to be insulting.

jag

I didn't know that the term "antiquated" is considered an insult nowadays, besides it's the truth, the morality mindset of christianity is after all 2000 years old if that's not antiquated I don't know what is.

 

[maxwell's demon]

This "statue" is just another piece of kitsch along Winchester in my town.

I've seen it in person once, and just started laughing.

They have a right to build it on their land, thinking it will somehow mean an increase in their membership when all it does is garner laughter from those in Memphis who are atheist, such as myself

and this...this gives me hope for us all.

but...do any of the local chirstians laugh? (i hope so)