Perversion of Liberty

[jaguarr]

Yes, but those who want to live their lives unbothered cannot. And that is the frustrating aspect.

I disagree with those who go door to door, i disagree with any form of solicitation or converting.

I guess part of the fact that im not religious may be adding to my frustration.

Ironically, the "live and let live, I accept you for who you are and what you believe and I respect your right to do so" philosophy usually comes from people such as you and I who are not religious.

jag

 

[cass]

When Maplethorpe showed "Piss Christ" to the world, Christians were up in arms about it (which really just proved the point he was trying to make to begin with). The hypocrisy is intoxicating.

jag

Define up in arms, as in burning buildings and threatening to behead people? If so, then I think not.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, I post those to address this silly idea that America was founded on Christianity.
Almost all the founding fathers were Deists which is contradictory to Christianity, but still involves a belief in a "God".
If anything the whole point was to have NO established religion in government, so how could America be founded on a religion.
Absurd. It's just ignorance.

Just some interesting things I found on the topic. Take them how you will -

1) Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members
Of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

2) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation!
Was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on
The Gospel of Jesus Christ". - Patrick Henry

3) "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity Of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to Govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God."! - James Madison

4) "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." - First Supreme Court Justice John Jay


just found those interesting.

 

[Sofa]

We react in frustration, thats all.

 

[Daisy]

Maplethorpe's "Piss Christ"
jag

That's Serrano.

 

[lazur]

You know what the difference between when the Statue of Liberty was presented to us by France and now is?

Lady Liberty could have come to us indeed carrying the ten commandments and wielding a cross, and we still would have put it up where it is today. Back then, freedom OF religion actually did exist.

Nowadays, if we received Lady Liberty carrying ten commandments and wielding a cross, she wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being placed ANYWHERE in visible sight of the general public. Today, we don't practice freedom OF religion - we practice freedom FROM religion.

 

[jaguarr]

Define up in arms, as in burning buildings and threatening to behead people? If so, then I think not.

No, as in wanting the work of art destroyed and the artist jailed rather than respecting his right to free speech. Don't exaggerate, and don't try to make it about extremist muslims. I'm talking about how the rights of people in the U.S. are treated by our own citizens.

jag

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Maplethorpe is the guy who posed making a leather whip appear to be his tail, in a, decidely...gross way.

 

[JewishHobbit]

If people say they aren't interested and don't want to hear about it, yet the attempts to convert them persist, then YES, it's wrong and disrespectful of someone's right to believe what they want to believe.

jag

If a person believes that committing suicide is the best choice for him, and you learn this, and you confront him on this and he says he's going to do it anyway. Would it be wrong to continue trying to save him?

In a christian's mind, it's not that differant.

 

[jaguarr]

That's Serrano.

Oh. I sometimes get the two confused.

jag

 

[Emrys]

Just some interesting things I found on the topic. Take them how you will -

1) Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members
Of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

2) "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation!
Was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on
The Gospel of Jesus Christ". - Patrick Henry

3) "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity Of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to Govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God."! - James Madison

4) "Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." - First Supreme Court Justice John Jay


just found those interesting.

if you prefer to be dominated by doctrines instead of rational thought, then those people up there are right. However history has clearly shown where christianity rules things go down the crapper therefore I prefer the philosphies of the age of enlightenment that cleaned house with all the christian nonsense and which by the way were the main influence of the founding fathers. Gimme Jefferson and Franklin over a Jay or Madison anytime.

 

[maxwell's demon]

You're right.
What Jesus "said" in the bible may not really have been said by Jesus at all.

But in that case Wilhelm-Scream can interpret Jesus's speeches as real, could he not?

sure. my main squabble was with his assertion that the bible "teaches", when in reality no inanimate object can be shown, evidentially, to do such a thing.

And while i know its *just* a figure of speech, i believe the use of this figure of speech (maybe..just maybe) reveals an inherent, subconscious, and widely-held belief that one must "believe or not believe" things which are written- and that it isn't impossible to change the meaning of a word once it is written down.

I was just reading a paper someone wrote about how the US School system is a shambles, and students who are taught inthe system wind up not knowing how to distinguish between the symbols and the real world objects they signify. this kinda had to do with that.

 

[Sofa]

If a person believes that committing suicide is the best choice for him, and you learn this, and you confront him on this and he says he's going to do it anyway. Would it be wrong to continue trying to save him?

In a christian's mind, it's not that differant.

A mans choice is a mans choice, is it not?

There is no right or wrong in that concept. If a man chooses to commit suicide, then it is his choice. It would not be right or wrong to let that choice be.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Just another random thought. People are saying that adding these things to the Statue of Liberty is horible. But what of the people that try to get rid of the Ten Commandments from public places? I mean, not exactly the same thing, but the concept is similar.

 

[Sofa]

I was just reading a paper someone wrote about how the US School system is a shambles, and students who are taught inthe system wind up not knowing how to distinguish between the symbols and the real world objects they signify. this kinda had to do with that.

That's really sad when you think about it.

I see what you mean.

 

[jaguarr]

You know what the difference between when the Statue of Liberty was presented to us by France and now is?

Lady Liberty could have come to us indeed carrying the ten commandments and wielding a cross, and we still would have put it up where it is today. Back then, freedom OF religion actually did exist.

Nowadays, if we received Lady Liberty carrying ten commandments and wielding a cross, she wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being placed ANYWHERE in visible sight of the general public. Today, we don't practice freedom OF religion - we practice freedom FROM religion.

I don't know if I completely agree with you. In my mind, freedom OF religion also includes the right to NOT believe in religion if you so desire.

jag

 

[Emrys]

You know what the difference between when the Statue of Liberty was presented to us by France and now is?

Lady Liberty could have come to us indeed carrying the ten commandments and wielding a cross, and we still would have put it up where it is today. Back then, freedom OF religion actually did exist.

Nowadays, if we received Lady Liberty carrying ten commandments and wielding a cross, she wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being placed ANYWHERE in visible sight of the general public. Today, we don't practice freedom OF religion - we practice freedom FROM religion.

If you have freedom of religion you also have the right to demand freedom from religion.

 

[Addendum]

Just another random thought. People are saying that adding these things to the Statue of Liberty is horible. But what of the people that try to get rid of the Ten Commandments from public places? I mean, not exactly the same thing, but the concept is similar.

I thought the movie was a bit boring in some places

 

[cass]

No, as in wanting the work of art destroyed and the artist jailed rather than respecting his right to free speech. Don't exaggerate, and don't try to make it about extremist muslims. I'm talking about how the rights of people in the U.S. are treated by our own citizens.

jag

If you think that is "up in arms" then you just continue to add onto the liberal stereotype. People thought it was obscene, which is illegal. So they pushed for punishment. They didn't go "up in arms".

 

[Daisy]

Ironically, the "live and let live, I accept you for who you are and what you believe and I respect your right to do so" philosophy usually comes from people such as you and I who are not religious.

jag

I would suggest it comes from cultural background more than whether you're religious or not.

For example those raised in areas of the US that were heavily Scandanavian, Finn or Dutch tend to have that attitude, regardless of religiosity.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Today, we don't practice freedom OF religion - we practice freedom FROM religion.

Ooh, I'll bet typing that just gave you goosebumps. Too bad it's bunk. Who is telling you which church to attend? Who is telling you'll be jailed if you don't acknowledge their conception of God? Who is telling you that you can't pray? Who is shutting down mosques because they might be a hotbed of Al Qaeda sympathizers? There are even American Indians in prison that are allowed to perform their religious rituals that include the ingestion of peyote.
Everyone has freedom of religion, so long as their religion doesn't hinder anyone else in the pursuit of living life under their own beliefs.

This dumb-ass statue is undeniable proof of that.

 

[jaguarr]

If a person believes that committing suicide is the best choice for him, and you learn this, and you confront him on this and he says he's going to do it anyway. Would it be wrong to continue trying to save him?

In a christian's mind, it's not that differant.

Oh, I get the Christian mindset. I used to be one. I still find it incredibly invasive and disrespectful of other people's belief systems. And equating not believing in God with committing suicide is a deplorable comparison.

jag

 

[cass]

Gimme Jefferson and Franklin over a Jay or Madison anytime.

See the link I posted for Jefferson/Franklin quotes and say that again.

 

[Emrys]

Just another random thought. People are saying that adding these things to the Statue of Liberty is horible. But what of the people that try to get rid of the Ten Commandments from public places? I mean, not exactly the same thing, but the concept is similar.

Don't distort facts, the ten commandments were in a court house, a place that should be per defintion secular and not mirred in arbitrary religious doctrines.

Ten commandments in a court house signifies " this court adhers to christian morality and not rational thought therefore anyone who is not christian cannot hope for a fair and balanced trial.

 

[jaguarr]

If you think that is "up in arms" then you just continue to add onto the liberal stereotype. People thought it was obscene, which is illegal. So they pushed for punishment. They didn't go "up in arms".

I respect your right to believe what you may think constitutes being "up in arms", cass.

jag