Perversion of Liberty

[Addendum]

So how do you know that they meant the same "god" or "christ" as you?

Jefferson was a deist

 

[JewishHobbit]

I thought the movie was a bit boring in some places

Never seen it myself. Not much on old movies. Prince of Egypt was good though, though biblically inaccurate.

 

[Daisy]

Maplethorpe is the guy who posed making a leather whip appear to be his tail, in a, decidely...gross way.

Was that a self-portrait? I always forget which are.

Oh. I sometimes get the two confused.

jag

Mapplethore - Sex
Serrano - Religion

 

[Emrys]

See the link I posted for Jefferson/Franklin quotes and say that again.

Why should I? I know they were deists doesn't change the fact that they were staunch secularists and believes in the philosphies of the age of reason.

 

[jaguarr]

I would suggest it comes from cultural background more than whether you're religious or not.

For example those raised in areas of the US that were heavily Scandanavian, Finn or Dutch tend to have that attitude, regardless of religiosity.

There is certainly cultural influence to a degree, but I also view organized religious factions as sort of their own cultural entities and such views can and do exist within an otherwise easygoing, "live and let live" sort of community.

jag

 

[cass]

Why should I? I know they were deists doesn't change the fact that they were staunch secularists and believes in the philosphies of the age of reason.

How do you know? By their quotes? Because it's very contradictory.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Don't distort facts, the ten commandments were in a court house, a place that should be per defintion secular and not mirred in arbitrary religious doctrines.

Ten commandments in a court house signifies " this court adhers to christian morality and not rational thought therefore anyone who is not christian cannot hope for a fair and balanced trial.

Whose distoring facts? I just asked people's opinions. And who says non-christians can't be put to a fair trial? And your idea of rational thought is simply your opinion of what should be rational. What makes you any differant from the christian extremists?

 

[Emrys]

If a person believes that committing suicide is the best choice for him, and you learn this, and you confront him on this and he says he's going to do it anyway. Would it be wrong to continue trying to save him?

In a christian's mind, it's not that differant.

If I would be that person and you wouldn't stop pestering me you might get a very physical answer. the same with christians, accept that I don't care or want to hear it, if you can't then better shut up or carry the consequences.

 

[maxwell's demon]

There is certainly cultural influence to a degree, but I also view organized religious factions as sort of their own cultural entities and such views can and do exist within an otherwise easygoing, "live and let live" sort of community.

jag

i think daisy's onto something with the cultural aspect, but beyond the individual religious cultures you mention, i think in large part the culture at play in this mindset is the consumerist/competitor(-ist)/capitalist one.
"my brand beats your brand! yeah!"

 

[lazur]

Ooh, I'll bet typing that just gave you goosebumps. Too bad it's bunk. Who is telling you which church to attend? Who is telling you'll be jailed if you don't acknowledge their conception of God? Who is telling you that you can't pray? Who is shutting down mosques because they might be a hotbed of Al Qaeda sympathizers? There are even American Indians in prison that are allowed to perform their religious rituals that include the ingestion of peyote.
Everyone has freedom of religion, so long as their religion doesn't hinder anyone else in the pursuit of living life under their own beliefs.

This dumb-ass statue is undeniable proof of that.

Do you always have to be so arrogant and confrontational?

All I did was compare the difference in social climate between when we received the statue of liberty and today. Things are MUCH different. The way religion is viewed by the masses is MUCH different.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Oh, I get the Christian mindset. I used to be one. I still find it incredibly invasive and disrespectful of other people's belief systems. And equating not believing in God with committing suicide is a deplorable comparison.

jag

Someone wants to shoot themselves and kill themselves. Someone wants to live without god and in the end result in an eternity of pain and regret. I think both are entitled to a constant plea of 'don't do it.'

Anyhow, out of curiosity (and don't answer if you don't want to), you say you use to be a christian. What sect, how long, how deep, and what changed your mind on it?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

If I would be that person and you wouldn't stop pestering me you might get a very physical answer. the same with christians, accept that I don't care or want to hear it, if you can't then better shut up or carry the consequences.

Pfff...getting physical over words is ******ed.
You should only respond physically to similarly physical annoyances/threats/offenses.
You fight words and thoughts with words and thoughts and fists with fists. duh

 

[JewishHobbit]

If I would be that person and you wouldn't stop pestering me you might get a very physical answer. the same with christians, accept that I don't care or want to hear it, if you can't then better shut up or carry the consequences.

I'm prepared to carry them. Doesn't phase me at all

 

[jaguarr]

Do you always have to be so arrogant and confrontational?

No offense, lazur, but given the fashion in which you tend to treat people in political threads, that's probably not a stone you ought to be picking up and throwing.

jag

 

[Emrys]

Whose distoring facts? I just asked people's opinions. And who says non-christians can't be put to a fair trial? And your idea of rational thought is simply your opinion of what should be rational. What makes you any differant from the christian extremists?

a fair trial under what? objective law that recognizes that their are things which christianity forbids but which are every citizens right to do (sex out of wedlock etc.)

or a fair trial under religious doctrine that adhers to it's principles even if they fly in the face of rational scrunity?

Nope it is not rational though means you analyse a situation with the data avaiable and come to an conclusion, religious thought means you come to a conclusione because it is written in the bible.

I'm no different from a christian extremist and i don't profess to be, that's my reaction to the constant hammering of the religious nuts, I react with agression, hatred and anger, leave me alone and all is fine try to force yourself into my way of life through the law making process and you get an answer to that.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Do you always have to be so arrogant and confrontational?

It's part of Wilhelm's charm. He's kinda one of those typical "anti-god" confrontational types, same as I'll always be one of those vocal "pro-god" types.

 

[Emrys]

How do you know? By their quotes? Because it's very contradictory.

Have you ever had an Univeristy course on the "early republic" those things normaly analyze quite well where the founding fathers got their ideas from.

 

[jaguarr]

Someone wants to shoot themselves and kill themselves. Someone wants to live without god and in the end result in an eternity of pain and regret. I think both are entitled to a constant plea of 'don't do it.'

Anyhow, out of curiosity (and don't answer if you don't want to), you say you use to be a christian. What sect, how long, how deep, and what changed your mind on it?

I was involved in Methodist, Presbyterian and Lutheran congregations up until the age of 17 or so. I won't go into why my beliefs changed as it would probably just stir up more angst in this thread.

However, I don't equate someone committing suicide with having free thought and deciding not to believe in God, personally. I don't think they are even remotely the same thing, so this is probably another one of those "agree to disagree" things for you and I.

jag

 

[Emrys]

I'm prepared to carry them. Doesn't phase me at all

why is it so damn hard for you people to leave others the **** alone and not try to influence their lives? Get it we don't care about your **** practice what you want but don't try to force us to do the same, cause otherwise you risk civil war.

 

[cass]

Have you ever had an Univeristy course on the "early republic" those things normaly analyze quite well where the founding fathers got their ideas from.

Have you read the quotes or are you too arrogant because you supposedly KNOW they were secularists, etc. and nothing, not even the words from their own lips, can change that?

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Someone wants to shoot themselves and kill themselves. Someone wants to live without god and in the end result in an eternity of pain and regret. I think both are entitled to a constant plea of 'don't do it."

The difference is, a guy standing on a bridge, it's plain to see that as far as our perception of reality goes, it's a guy, on a bridge, about to jump off.

But what you're talking about, there is no physical evidence for it at all. You might believe in it, but hey, there are people that believe George Bush is posessed by a reptilian demon from the fourth dimension.*shrug*

That's why (and I can't believe you never see this), what I say is true.
There is no real choice if you aren't given any evidence and are just told to believe what you're being told.
The only way it's a fair choice is if God takes everyone to Heaven and then to Hell, and THEN asks them to choose, because then they KNOW it's real. Until then...you say people will go to Hell if they don't believe what you believe. Well so do the Muslims, and the Mormons, and any number of religious people.
So what? People believe a lot of crazy stuff.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm no different from a christian extremist and i don't profess to be, that's my reaction to the constant hammering of the religious nuts, I react with agression, hatred and anger, leave me alone and all is fine try to force yourself into my way of life through the law making process and you get an answer to that.

Hah, so you're a hypocrite?

 

[lazur]

No offense, lazur, but given the fashion in which you tend to treat people in political threads, that's probably not a stone you ought to be picking up and throwing.

jag

There's a difference - I'm usually provoked, and the target of my confrontation usually asks for it.

 

[cass]

Hah, so you're a hypocrite?

lol

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Do you always have to be so arrogant and confrontational?

Only when someone says something that's offensively untrue.Sorry.
comparing the current social climate and that of the past was not "all you were doing".

You said that we don't practice Freedom of Religion. And that's balderdash.