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Discussion in 'Ant-Man' started by samsnee, Jun 7, 2014.
I still blame most of the movie's crucial problems on Edgar Wright.
The premise and material Peyton Reed got to work with was pure gold.
Pity it had to go through the Marvel blender.
Marginalizing Hank Pym and making him an old man. Marginalizing The Wasp. Hope van Dyne.
I knew you would say exactly that. Doesn't have anything to do with the film / storytelling quality.
Actually it has a lot to do with it. It forces in a character like Hope van Dyne, who is basically made into a Mary Sue. There is no logical reason it is not her who should be going on the heist.
Not to mention the fact that you have a man like Hank Pym giving the Ant-Man tech to Scott Lang. Pym does not have a high opinion of the Avengers, but he allows Lang to keep all the tech to go and join them. It doesn't clarify what Pym wants Lang to do with the tech after the heist. Or if he's OK with Lang going off to join the people Hank Pym WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH! He wanted the tech nowhere near Tony Stark.
There is no reason why Lang should go on the heist. OK, protect the world and keep it out of bad guy hands. But what does that do for Lang? It doesn't clear his record or name. It doesn't keep him out of jail. Was Pym planning on hiring Lang? Was he going to give him something in return? Of course, Pym is off the hook but only out of circumstance and not really anything Pym did directly. The plot never clarifies any of this. "Being a hero" is not a logical reason for Pym to take on the mantle of Ant-Man.
In the comics, he stole the tech for specific reasons that made sense logically at least.
Since when have parents been logical about protecting their children from perceived threats? Have you never thought a parent acted a bit over-cautious regarding the safety of their children? Pym may have been acting irrational and illogical but he was certainly not out of character considering his history.
Lang has not joined anyone yet. However, registration will force everyone to act so it's not like Lang or Pym have much choice. Pym saw the value of his tech in the past, and at the end of Ant-Man he has clearly had a change of heart towards things. Pym may have changed his opinions toward the Avengers, but it's important to note Lang is not on Stark's side in Civil War.
Lang wanted redemption in his daughter's eyes. Lang was never really a bad guy though he did steal from an executive who scammed folks (I think this was the case, I'm too lazy to look it up). Former felons don't get many opportunities in the real world so becoming a superhero isn't such a bad gig if you can get it.
Films ain't the comics, yo. Lang did burgle Pym's property with the intent to steal money, there just wasn't any, so he stole what he thought was valuable, that being the suit. He was then coerced into being Ant-Man, either that or go back to jail.
It doesn't matter. Hope van Dyne if anything seems like the type who wouldn't listen to her father and do it anyway if that's what she believed what was right.
At the end of the movie he's looking to join up with the Avengers. Stark or no Stark, Pym resented the Avengers and wanted nothing to do with them in the film and wanted everything to be done strictly on their own watch. He never gave Lang his blessing to go out and join a superhero team.
He doesn't need to redeem himself in his daughter's eyes because his daughter still loves him and always did. Becoming a hero does nothing to help him or his situation. He's still technically a fugitive from the law when Pym gets him out. And Pym never specifically gave him his blessing to continue using his tech and being a hero. His job was to steal the tech to keep it out of the hands of his would be protege. The only reason his legal circumstance was changed was because of un-planned events that put his own daughter's life in danger. That wasn't supposed to happen. If it all went as planned, what would Pym have done for him? Would he have paid Lang's alimony and child support bills? Would he have given him a job? Getting a superhero gig isn't bad, how is that going to pay the bills for him exactly? You make no sense.
In the comics, Hank Pym kept an eye on Pym, and he gave him his blessing to keep the Ant-Man tech as long as he used it for good and would no longer commit crimes.
Again, I didn't like that they made whether or not Hope could be Wasp completely about Hank and his issues. God forbid it be about Hope and HER character, nope lets do an "overprotective/unreasonable daddy" plot instead. And the fact that the movie draws attention to how uber-competent/qualified she was just makes it all the worse.
Especially since I didn't find their dynamic to be nearly as interesting/compelling as other seem to. I found it rather cliché/predictable honestly and I DO question whether they'd have done this same kind of arc with a MALE hero (because they decidedly have not so far) or if they'd have handled Janet's death the same way either (given the MCU's previous track record, I have my doubts).
Maybe I saw it differently, but as far as I recall the only person who thought that Hope was uber-qualified and right for the job was Hope herself, I think the intention was for her to come across as a little conceited. After all, she hadn't demonstrated at all that she could break in anywhere (Scott had, demonstrating efficient climbing skills as well), she hadn't demonstrated the electronics expertise needed to do the job (Scott had these) and she hadn't demonstrated the ability to think quickly and improvise a new plan (as Scott did when he couldn't open the safe). Yes, she could fight, and had good control of the ants, but the heist required a different skill set that Scott exhibited.
In other words, this idea of Hope being perfect and held back by her Dad is only slightly true, but I feel that there was a level of her having to learn to trust others as part of the story. Her being proved wrong about Scott was part of this (if she were a true 'Mary Sue' she'd have been proved right and had to have stepped in at the last minute to save the day - that didn't happen).
Hopefully they'll put more focus on her in a sequel and highlight these flaws, as well as her strengths, as part of her developing personality. Marvel have a great opportunity to create a really interesting character here - relatively free of comic book lore - I hope they take it.
Hope Pym is not the main character in a film titled 'Ant-Man'. The mind boggles.
I believe its been mentioned elsewhere, but I would be very happy for the sequel to be called Wasp.
There's already some conversation on this on the Marvel films board, but it's probably worth noting here that as part of the current shakeup making Kevin Feige High Lord over Marvel movies, a reportedly much-hated "creative committee" that offered suggestions to directors during production has been axed.
Allegedly it was interference from this group that drove Ed Wright off of Ant-Man. I wonder if Ant-Man's good-but-not-great box office run gave Feige the leverage he needed to finally wrest control of the movie side of the biz?
That's great news, if true! I always hated the idea of the commitee interfering with the work of perfectly capable screenwriters and filmmakers. This is movies we're talking about! Let them filmmakers make MOVIES!
Yet Ant Man was a success after wright had walked off. If they had let him do his thing it would probably be a very different film and most probably not fit well into the MCU.
In a shared universe they must make sure that it all fits together. Hopefully Feige can make it work and directors will have enough freedom to express themselves.