Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

Not to my knowledge. That's interesting. I'll have to go back and look at The Avengers again.

Of course, there could be more than one destroyed planet in the universe. . . .

They're in a different like dimension or something aren't they? It was my impression that Loki landed somewhere outside the 9 realms and met Thanos there. so that would mean it couldnt' be Jotunheim but somewhere else. Otherwise they could use good old fashioned space travel to invade Earth.

I'll reply more to the other posts a bit later....

 

[Guerrilla]

Well, it's possible that Thanos is there, near Jotunheim, viewing it and its near destruction, but not on its same dimensional plain. i.e. similar to loki appearing in the mirror possessing selvig at the end of CA:TFA. I dunno just guessing. Which could explain a lot of the circumstances surrounding the avengers and also setting up some of the "How's" for phase 2.

 

[Guerrilla]

They're in a different like dimension or something aren't they? It was my impression that Loki landed somewhere outside the 9 realms and met Thanos there. so that would mean it couldnt' be Jotunheim but somewhere else. Otherwise they could use good old fashioned space travel to invade Earth.

I'll reply more to the other posts a bit later....

they do indeed use old fashioned space travel (the spaceship that gets destroyed) via tesseract portal to try (and fail) to invade earth in the avengers. I'm not the best at vocalizing my thoughts. Hopefully you all get the idea i'm trying to put out there. t:

 

[American Maid]

They're in a different like dimension or something aren't they? It was my impression that Loki landed somewhere outside the 9 realms and met Thanos there. so that would mean it couldnt' be Jotunheim but somewhere else.

Well, per my earlier post, I am currently thinking in the terms you mention, which is how the structure of the cosmos is presented in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Namely, each of the Nine Realms is in its own dimension, and the dimensional planes have some overlap.

But when I was thinking about Guerilla's comment, I supposed that we have not been given much evidence in the movies one way or another as to where the other realms lie, at least in the movies' continuity.

Thinking about it some more, I realized that when I first watched Thor1, I tacitly assumed all the realms were in the same dimension as Earth, essentially other planets. I think the reason I thought this is because Thor says that we can see traces of Yggdrasil through the Hubble telescope.

Otherwise they could use good old fashioned space travel to invade Earth.

Yeah, but then you'd need the equivalent of a warp drive engine or a way to jump to hyperspace. Edit: or a way for a ship to open its own, or travel through, a portal.

Well, it's possible that Thanos is there, near Jotunheim, viewing it and its near destruction, but not on its same dimensional plain. i.e. similar to loki appearing in the mirror possessing selvig at the end of CA:TFA.

(Thor1, I assume you mean) That's a good point.

And who's to say Thanos is not able to jump from dimension to dimension? (Note: it's been a while since I've seen that scene in The Avengers. Maybe there's something about it that would preclude what I'm suggesting--dunno.)

 

[Guerrilla]

(Thor1, I assume you mean)

Ahh, yes Thor 1. Crap it's been awhile. Thanks!

 

[elizah72]

Thor in Avengers says the Chitauri are not from any world known and they dont know about Thanos at all it seems based on him asking Loki "who controls the would be king?" So that seems like that more evidence that Thanos is in another dimension or separate part the universe far from the 9 realms and Odin's domain. It seems like Odin should be aware of Thanos, as big a threat as he is perceived to be, and would have told Thor about him, if Thanos was known within the 9 realms. And if it was easy for Thanos to travel and send his army to Earth/the 9 realms, (at this point in the story) it seems like he would have done so without some mischievous disgruntled Asgardian/miniature frost giant's help.

Also, my suspicion is that Odin should have picked up on Loki being alive and maybe even where he might be if he were in the 9 realms during that time. Again because he'd be in Odin's domain, Odin would seem likely to pick up on it. But maybe he's not that powerful, or not in that way so I could be wrong on that.

And of course Loki tells Thor that he's seen worlds Thor has never known about, so again, evidence that Loki was, and Thanos and the Chitauri are, outside of the 9 realms. It's interesting to think that the Asgardians might be learning their universe is bigger and more inhabited than they first thought, sort of like Earth suddenly being aware of aliens from another planet.

 

[Guerrilla]

I hear what your saying elizah. I just don't understand how Odin could not know about Thanos, yet possess the IG in his vault. Also, other dimensions is a tricky subject IMO. If we are talking about real world, it's possible that there are infinite dimensions all around us that we are simply unaware of. I doubt that the MCU is intending on explaining all of the details surrounding what "other dimensions" means exactly. But I guess it's also possible that what we see of Thanos, and the background of those scenes, is simply a virtual construct of Jotunheim and he and his army aren't physically chillin in space right outside of Jotunheim. Kinda like the visual they give us in the avengers when The Other contacts Loki about getting the tesseract. Know what im saying?

 

[elizah72]

I hear what your saying elizah. I just don't understand how Odin could not know about Thanos, yet possess the IG in his vault.

it could be Thanos hasn't gone after it yet, maybe? or if he is aware of him from the past, then Thanos would likely have to currently be out of Odin's reach and so not in one of the 9 realms. Otherwise I dont think Odin would let him run rampant in his domain.

Also, other dimensions is a tricky subject IMO. If we are talking about real world, it's possible that there are infinite dimensions all around us that we are simply unaware of. I doubt that the MCU is intending on explaining all of the details surrounding what "other dimensions" means exactly. But I guess it's also possible that what we see of Thanos, and the background of those scenes, is simply a virtual construct of Jotunheim and he and his army aren't physically chillin in space right outside of Jotunheim. Kinda like the visual they give us in the avengers when The Other contacts Loki about getting the tesseract. Know what im saying?

I understand, but I really dont think that's Jotunheim, that's just too much of a coincidence IMO. Plus Thor's sacrifice in the end would have meant nothing if Jotunheim were actually pretty much destroyed with all there living on it, so I expect we will find a devastated but intact Jotunheim in Thor 2.

Besides, there are plenty of worlds out there that either Thanos or other beings could have torn apart, it's a BIG universe!

btw, HEY JON! (I'm "shouting" because this may be too long a post for jaqua99 to read and get to this point. ). Question... Fully powered Odin vs Thanos (with or without IG) who wins?

 

[elizah72]

yes, but some of us may simply not have the 5 minutes or so to read ONE post, as I didn't at the time

Okay well next time I do a long ass post I'll be sure to check with you first to be sure you'll have time to read it then............... NOT!

The animated series Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes does something with portals. In that continuity, each of the Nine Realms is in a separate dimension. They talk about zones on Earth where the dimensional planes overlap, giving rise to weak spots where a portal could be constructed. They could use the same idea here, and have the area around the University of Greenwich have an overlap to Svartalfheim. This would obviate the technical challenge I had identified earlier (in the Jane Foster thread) of targeting accuracy. And Erik already knows how to address the power problem. It would seem odd that Jane & Co. would be targeting that area around U. Greenwich, unless there is, as you suggest, some external influence nudging them in that direction.

Interesting, thanks!

UGH! I just typed up a big response and then I hit something on my laptop that caused it to be lost! ARGH! So I'm not in the mood to type it ALL up again, sorry. (Jaqua99, is probably laughing at this! )

A gap: how would going to Midgard help the Dark Elves invade Asgard? Perhaps they would proceed to the area where the Midgardian plane overlaps with the Asgardian one (which you would think would be in Scandanavia somewhere, except they haven't done any filming there)

As posted in my speculative summary, the proposed strategy is to divide and conquer. So drawing Thor down to Midgard to get him away from the palace, and drawing many warriors to the outskirts of Asgard so the palace is much more thinly defended gives them a better chance of success, and as I said maybe the plan of Malekith's is not necessarily to win right there but more to get access to Odin's vault.

To continue to poke at this gap, the summary has a Dark Elf ship over Asgard City. How does it get there? The Vanir help them, perhaps? You mention that it is cloaked from Odin's and Heimdall's gazes. But I think it makes as much sense to have it arrive suddenly through a portal and start attacking. So they detect it straight away, but that doesn't give them any warning to speak of..

I don't want to overuse portals. I think that is possible to overuse that and so I think that the writers/director/marvel might realize that too. So I was trying to come up with a different way for the ship to not be detected. It doesn't really matter how or from who for this summary, it's just there. I think I'd drive myself crazy with so many minor details, that I probably will wind up being wrong about. If later I can figure a way to tie that in I will, but I don't find it that important at the moment to dwell on.

My quibble about this is that it takes Jane an awfully long time to close the portal. You'd think she'd shut it down right away. But we see from the U. Greenwich photos that she and Erik climb on the piles of dirt and check it out (and run away sometimes) for a while

1. Erik and the other scientists were helpless when Loki opened a portal in the beginning of Avengers, they have made some strides and learned some things I'm sure, but that doesn't mean that Jane can just push a button and open and close portals so effortlessly.

2. They may very well be busy being chased around by Dark Elves

3. Any DE's that were monitoring them might have put in some kind of monkeywrench or "doorstop" to prevent Jane and co from closing it, when it was opened.

Tyr
Jane in Asgardian clothes
Iceland
Stonehenge (maybe Midgard overlaps with Alfheim here, or Asgard, and that's how they get there after the initial battle)
Kurse
Shots over the Thames, around St. Paul's Cathedral, etc.
Alice Krige's character

Nice job, Elizah!

Thanks!

 

[elizah72]

Btw, most of us know that in the comics Malekith kidnaps a woman named Lorelei that Thor has the hots for, and he uses her to get to Thor. They may not use this element at all. However, I have wondered about the possibility that Frigga , not Jane, might end up being the Lorelei of the piece. I already know you don't like that idea American Maid, but...

1 it would give Renee significantly more screentime before Frigga is killed, which would definitely be a good thing. We might even get to really see how brave and tough Frigga is in such a predicament.

2. it would give a reason why Odin wouldn't just go right after the Dark Elves in revenge immediately, if he's got to proceed carefully or risk Frigga being killed.

3. It would also be a "moral sacrifice" situation as he debates whether to negotiate with hostage takers, especially if Malekith's demands are great.

 

[American Maid]

^^Well, it would be a little different, and at least there wouldn't be a love potion involved--hahah

 

[American Maid]

UGH! I just typed up a big response and then I hit something on my laptop that caused it to be lost! ARGH! So I'm not in the mood to type it ALL up again, sorry. (Jaqua99, is probably laughing at this! )

I've had that trouble all too often. Sorry it happened to you!

<Why would the dark elves go to Midgard?>

As posted in my speculative summary, the proposed strategy is to divide and conquer. So drawing Thor down to Midgard to get him away from the palace, and drawing many warriors to the outskirts of Asgard so the palace is much more thinly defended gives them a better chance of success, and as I said maybe the plan of Malekith's is not necessarily to win right there but more to get access to Odin's vault.

Ah, yes, you are right. And if the Dark Elves have spies among the humans, they would have seen the news coverage of the events in New York along with everyone else. So they know if something big happens on Earth, they can get Thor to show up.

The one little nagging thing is this: wouldn't Malekith want to be part of the main assault on the palace, in order to recover the artifacts? Maybe the artifacts have protective spells around them that he would need to defeat. It seems like if your strategy is to pull Thor away from Asgard, you would have Algrim lead the team on Earth, and Malekith lead the team on Asgard. (BTW, I liked the idea of Algrim leading a team )


<how does the asymmetric ship get over the palace?>

I don't want to overuse portals. I think that is possible to overuse that and so I think that the writers/director/marvel might realize that too. So I was trying to come up with a different way for the ship to not be detected. It doesn't really matter how or from who for this summary, it's just there. I think I'd drive myself crazy with so many minor details, that I probably will wind up being wrong about.

Well, as I've said before, it doesn't bother me a bit if you are wrong about these things. The stories are enjoyable in their own right.

You make a good point about overuse of portals.

I'm not 100% convinced that it doesn't matter at all how the ship got there, because it provides a glimpse into how well the whole story hangs together. But I don't necessarily have an alternative to provide (other than the Vanir), either.


<why does it take Jane so long to close the portal?>

1. Erik and the other scientists were helpless when Loki opened a portal in the beginning of Avengers, they have made some strides and learned some things I'm sure, but that doesn't mean that Jane can just push a button and open and close portals so effortlessly.

2. They may very well be busy being chased around by Dark Elves

3. Any DE's that were monitoring them might have put in some kind of monkeywrench or "doorstop" to prevent Jane and co from closing it, when it was opened.

All very reasonable. Thanks!

 

[elizah72]

The one little nagging thing is this: wouldn't Malekith want to be part of the main assault on the palace, in order to recover the artifacts? Maybe the artifacts have protective spells around them that he would need to defeat. It seems like if your strategy is to pull Thor away from Asgard, you would have Algrim lead the team on Earth, and Malekith lead the team on Asgard. (BTW, I liked the idea of Algrim leading a team )

Perhaps he feels that the attack on the palace on Asgard is more likely to wind up being a suicide mission with Odin there, than him facing Thor on Midgard?

I'm not 100% convinced that it doesn't matter at all how the ship got there, because it provides a glimpse into how well the whole story hangs together. But I don't necessarily have an alternative to provide (other than the Vanir), either.

there could be any number of reasons, Thanos, Hela, the Vanir, or the DE's themselves have created technology while they wait for the right time to strike. If something else falls into place and I can fit it into the summary later I will, but I'm not going to worry about it much at this point.

 

[American Maid]

Perhaps he feels that the attack on the palace on Asgard is more likely to wind up being a suicide mission with Odin there, than him facing Thor on Midgard?

I can see that.

 

[jaqua99]

it could be Thanos hasn't gone after it yet, maybe? or if he is aware of him from the past, then Thanos would likely have to currently be out of Odin's reach and so not in one of the 9 realms. Otherwise I dont think Odin would let him run rampant in his domain.



I understand, but I really dont think that's Jotunheim, that's just too much of a coincidence IMO. Plus Thor's sacrifice in the end would have meant nothing if Jotunheim were actually pretty much destroyed with all there living on it, so I expect we will find a devastated but intact Jotunheim in Thor 2.

Besides, there are plenty of worlds out there that either Thanos or other beings could have torn apart, it's a BIG universe!

btw, HEY JON! (I'm "shouting" because this may be too long a post for jaqua99 to read and get to this point. ). Question... Fully powered Odin vs Thanos (with or without IG) who wins?

could be. Well, the one time ( i believe) Thanos and Odin have fought, technically neither won. This is essentially how the fight went

Basically, Odin was in a fighting mood. No reason with him. So Thanos took the silver surfer by his side and they took on thanos. Odin Blasts thanos, as you see, Thanos tanks it. Thanos then blasts Odin along with Surfer, Odin takes it. Odin then blasts Thanos, as he stumbles back a bit. Meanwhile the silver surfer attacks from above! With powerful blasts, it merely gets odin's attention, and pisses him off, he then blasts the surfer, one shotting him. Now its odin and thanos, thanos runs in, and punches him with an amped punch, staggering Odin a bit, who then recovers and counters with a smack to thanos, staggering him a bit more. They talk, putting each other down, in a way, more so thanos, odin sort of is admired by his effort. Then thanos talks and blasts odin, getting him to step back at bit and stagger odin, as he blocks his face (merely stagger, Odin's attacks seem to be a bit more powerful than thanos'. Odin then makes a bunch of rocks and elements fall on thanos, as he creates a shield, protecting himself from it. Thanos then creates a field of pure energy, trapping odin inside. Odin breaks free after a short amount of time. Odin then summons gungnir, and blasts thanos. Sending him FLYING through asgard and into buildings. Odin goes to where thanos landed, and says, all of Odin's enemys fall, as Thanos gets up super quickly emerging from rubble, tells odin that he boasts prematurely. Odin then blasts him again with gungnir, a concentrated blast, except, instead of sending thanos flying, thanos puts his hand up, and slowly wades through the concentrated blast, walks through it, with difficulty, and walks up, and grabs the spear. an explosion happens, and they both go flying up. Thanos lands first, then odin. Thanos is down. Odin lands near him, and says that Thanos was one of the toughest foes he faced in eons, and asked him if he yields. Then Thanos slowly gets up, it takes him 4 panels to get up, and Thanos says no. Odin is shocked. Thanos seemed to have recovered, and chargese up his hands, and warlock and them intervene and explain to odin the situation, and that they needed his help.

For this fight, even though odin couldn't put him down, it was a bit clear who was superior. Thanos' INSANE duribility kept him in the fight. Thanos couldn't really hurt odin, and even though odin was hurting thanos, it took him some effort, and a bit of time. It's why he summoned gungnir, then he was getting the better of thanos. and was hurting him.

Thanos, since then, has been upgraded, and has become a bit more powerful.

However, not enough to put down odin. Thanos is more durable, and seemingly more powerful. I'd say, the fight would go similar now to how it went then. Except Thanos will last a little bit longer, and he will be able to stagger odin, hurting him a bit. But Odin would still be superior, ultimately, Odin is more powerful, thanos has power to disturb him, but the duribility to go toe to toe with him for a bit. So Odin wins.

I can see that.

 

[elizah72]

I can see that.

Also if Malekith has a personal vendetta against Thor, possibly due to his injury to half his body/face then it would make sense that he'd want to be the one to draw him down to Midgard and fight him.

could be. Well, the one time ( i believe) Thanos and Odin have fought, technically neither won. This is essentially how the fight went
Basically, Odin was in a fighting mood. No reason with him. So Thanos took the silver surfer by his side and they took on thanos. Odin Blasts thanos, as you see, Thanos tanks it. Thanos then blasts Odin along with Surfer, Odin takes it. Odin then blasts Thanos, as he stumbles back a bit. Meanwhile the silver surfer attacks from above! With powerful blasts, it merely gets odin's attention, and pisses him off, he then blasts the surfer, one shotting him. Now its odin and thanos, thanos runs in, and punches him with an amped punch, staggering Odin a bit, who then recovers and counters with a smack to thanos, staggering him a bit more. They talk, putting each other down, in a way, more so thanos, odin sort of is admired by his effort. Then thanos talks and blasts odin, getting him to step back at bit and stagger odin, as he blocks his face (merely stagger, Odin's attacks seem to be a bit more powerful than thanos'. Odin then makes a bunch of rocks and elements fall on thanos, as he creates a shield, protecting himself from it. Thanos then creates a field of pure energy, trapping odin inside. Odin breaks free after a short amount of time. Odin then summons gungnir, and blasts thanos. Sending him FLYING through asgard and into buildings. Odin goes to where thanos landed, and says, all of Odin's enemys fall, as Thanos gets up super quickly emerging from rubble, tells odin that he boasts prematurely. Odin then blasts him again with gungnir, a concentrated blast, except, instead of sending thanos flying, thanos puts his hand up, and slowly wades through the concentrated blast, walks through it, with difficulty, and walks up, and grabs the spear. an explosion happens, and they both go flying up. Thanos lands first, then odin. Thanos is down. Odin lands near him, and says that Thanos was one of the toughest foes he faced in eons, and asked him if he yields. Then Thanos slowly gets up, it takes him 4 panels to get up, and Thanos says no. Odin is shocked. Thanos seemed to have recovered, and chargese up his hands, and warlock and them intervene and explain to odin the situation, and that they needed his help.

For this fight, even though odin couldn't put him down, it was a bit clear who was superior. Thanos' INSANE duribility kept him in the fight. Thanos couldn't really hurt odin, and even though odin was hurting thanos, it took him some effort, and a bit of time. It's why he summoned gungnir, then he was getting the better of thanos. and was hurting him.

Thanos, since then, has been upgraded, and has become a bit more powerful.

However, not enough to put down odin. Thanos is more durable, and seemingly more powerful. I'd say, the fight would go similar now to how it went then. Except Thanos will last a little bit longer, and he will be able to stagger odin, hurting him a bit. But Odin would still be superior, ultimately, Odin is more powerful, thanos has power to disturb him, but the duribility to go toe to toe with him for a bit. So Odin wins.

Thanks. Comic book Odin is one badass MoFo.

Now we talk about how different MCU Loki is from Comics Loki but he's not the only one! Odin is kind of a villain in his own right in the comics at times from what I've seen.

Other than Marvel/Branagh/the writers wanting to make him a much more sympathetic father figure, for the "family drama" they were making here, why do you suppose that is that he's been changed so much?

Current MCU Odin wants the realms to be at peace, he wouldnt go out and fight because he's in a fighting mood and basically banishes Thor for doing just that. If Odin was much more warlike like his comics counterpart in his youth, as Thor was, seeking out "glorious battles", then why the change of heart by the time he found Loki as a baby? It seems like comic book Odin would have just slain the child and been done with it. I know in the comics he takes him in as a way of getting his father's ghost to stop haunting him (basically) by taking in a child of his enemy, but I don't think they'll go in that direction with this, could be wrong but I think we'll get a fresh take.

I'm wondering if Tyr's part could be to reveal something about Odin's past and perhaps even why Odin takes Loki as a baby (if he winds up being changed to either Odin's brother or contemporary so aware of Odin's past more than others may be, and not his son)

Also Jon, do you think Tyr will wind up being on the good or bad side? The mythos indicates a good guy, but I know he's sort of been both in the comics.

 

[American Maid]

<Why does Malekith go to backwater Midgard instead of where the artifacts are?>

Also if Malekith has a personal vendetta against Thor, possibly due to his injury to half his body/face then it would make sense that he'd want to be the one to draw him down to Midgard and fight him.

I can see that, too.

Odin is kind of a villain in his own right in the comics at times from what I've seen.

Tentatively, since I haven't read a lot of the books, mostly just panels, I would say he can be quite heartless, unloving, a jerk (or some word that the Hype wouldn't let me post). That's not quite the same, necessarily, as being a villain.

Other than Marvel/Branagh/the writers wanting to make him a much more sympathetic father figure, for the "family drama" they were making here, why do you suppose that is that he's been changed so much?

I suppose to make him more sympathetic in his other roles (king of Asgard, leader of the cosmos, etc) as well. I think there's a segment of the audience that would be completely unsympathetic with some of the nonsense Odin has pulled in the books.

 

[elizah72]

Speak of the devil...

apparently it is Anthony Hopkins birthday today! (Dec 31 1937)

 

[jaqua99]

Also if Malekith has a personal vendetta against Thor, possibly due to his injury to half his body/face then it would make sense that he'd want to be the one to draw him down to Midgard and fight him.

Thanks. Comic book Odin is one badass MoFo.

Odin in the comics is certainly one badass MoFo. I forgot to mention the IG. Thanos with the IG, Odin wouldn't even be a threat, with the IG, he took on all the heroes, galactus, and all those guys, and the abstracts, and defeated eternity. Only one above him was the living tribunal, who is the judgement of the universe, he elected to leave it alone, in a way, deeming it as survival of the fitest.

Now we talk about how different MCU Loki is from Comics Loki but he's not the only one! Odin is kind of a villain in his own right in the comics at times from what I've seen.

Odin as far as I have read, and I have a read A LOT of Thor comics has never been considered a villain. He has disagreed with Thor, and such, but certainly he is never a problem or the antagonist of the arc. Odin is wise, and Thor looks up to him, but he most certainly is never a villain in his own right lol.

Other than Marvel/Branagh/the writers wanting to make him a much more sympathetic father figure, for the "family drama" they were making here, why do you suppose that is that he's been changed so much?

Current MCU Odin wants the realms to be at peace, he wouldnt go out and fight because he's in a fighting mood and basically banishes Thor for doing just that. If Odin was much more warlike like his comics counterpart in his youth, as Thor was, seeking out "glorious battles", then why the change of heart by the time he found Loki as a baby? It seems like comic book Odin would have just slain the child and been done with it. I know in the comics he takes him in as a way of getting his father's ghost to stop haunting him (basically) by taking in a child of his enemy, but I don't think they'll go in that direction with this, could be wrong but I think we'll get a fresh take.

Well, he did take the baby. And we have seen it as Odin maturing. i sort of see it as what will ultimately happen to thor. Odin has probably been around for what...10,000 years? Im sure he's battled Surtur, Thanos, obviously the frost giants, and whatever. After all this, it is reasonable to think Odin has changed, and wants peace in the 9 realms.

As Odin says, his reasons for taking a small baby frost giant, was that he hoped it could unite the two kingdoms, him raising a frost giant as his own, and create a truce between the two kingdoms, ultimately bringing peace to the 9 realms.

I don't think Odin is necessarily THAT different from comics, as he DID banish Thor, he DID get angry. I just think the comic version of Odin is in MCU Odin's past. I take it as MCU Odin, in terms of the span of his life, is very, very old. Maybe to the point where he can't so much fight in as much battles as he used to. As he is older, and seeks to avoid conflict. Given the weapons vault, and as Loki said Odin is the "most powerful being in the 9 realms", I think Odin was once this all mighty powerful warrior, like in the comics, he has just simply grown out of that in the MCU, as he is aging. That's what I think. I don't think there is THAT much of a difference.

I'm wondering if Tyr's part could be to reveal something about Odin's past and perhaps even why Odin takes Loki as a baby (if he winds up being changed to either Odin's brother or contemporary so aware of Odin's past more than others may be, and not his son)

Also Jon, do you think Tyr will wind up being on the good or bad side? The mythos indicates a good guy, but I know he's sort of been both in the comics.

Not sure yet. To be honest, as of right now, I think he may side with whatever Loki does. Before turning and helping thor and saving whoever needs it at the end. It's tough to say.

 

[elizah72]

Odin as far as I have read, and I have a read A LOT of Thor comics has never been considered a villain. He has disagreed with Thor, and such, but certainly he is never a problem or the antagonist of the arc. Odin is wise, and Thor looks up to him, but he most certainly is never a villain in his own right lol.

I suppose I'm looking at it at least partially from how he treats Loki in the comics from what I've seen, which seems pretty rotten and even cruel at times and that's in stark contrast to what we're seeing in the MCU. Getting angry is not the problem, it's what happens when he gets angry or decides to teach a lesson. He isn't exactly an idea father to Thor either, though I don't feel like hunting for panels right now. Going around looking for a fight and destroying your homeworld isn't exactly a good example for the Allfather to be setting for the rest of the 9 realms (seriously, who were people supposed to be rooting for there?) and I would never expect MCU Odin to do. Comics Odin also let his father die and assumed the throne, not exactly honorable. So perhaps villain is less accurate and more like an at least occasional a******.

As Odin says, his reasons for taking a small baby frost giant, was that he hoped it could unite the two kingdoms, him raising a frost giant as his own, and create a truce between the two kingdoms, ultimately bringing peace to the 9 realms.

but they've had peace, with the truce with the frost giants for a 1000 years plus. And I'm not sure how realistically he expected them to take little Loki seriously as a ruler, or how he'd expect Loki to WANT to rule them, when they are so looked down upon and reviled. I think there will be more to that story, honestly.

Not sure yet. To be honest, as of right now, I think he may side with whatever Loki does. Before turning and helping thor and saving whoever needs it at the end. It's tough to say.

are you saying you think Tyr will turn or Loki here?

 

[American Maid]

I suppose I'm looking at it at least partially from how he treats Loki in the comics from what I've seen, which seems pretty rotten and even cruel at times and that's in stark contrast to what we're seeing in the MCU. Getting angry is not the problem, it's what happens when he gets angry or decides to teach a lesson. He isn't exactly an idea father to Thor either, though I don't feel like hunting for panels right now.

Well, as you two know, I just started reading the Simonson run, and you don't have to go far to find an example. So I got your Exhibit A right here:

#338, second issue of the run. Beta Ray Bill figures he's won Mjolnir fair and square. What is Odin's solution?
"You will fight weaponless, but for the power of your own right arms. . . . The victor's reward shall be Mjolnir, the enchanted hammer. The loser's reward shall be a funeral pyre."

So, he's sending his *son* (whom in panels before and after he says he loves dearly) into a death match against an alien whose abilities are unknown to him. (Thanks, Dad!) Yeah, he prefaces it by saying this is the way of the warriors, but later, when it winds up a draw, he somehow finds it in him to think of a creative solution. [Edit: okay, technically, Beta Ray Bill won. But he did not pursue the victory condition and thus forced Odin to think creatively.] (And I realize that narratively, the purpose is to show how fine a warrior Beta Ray Bill is. But jeez louise, Odin. . .)

Comics Odin also let his father die and assumed the throne, not exactly honorable.

To be fair, he does get haunted for that.

So perhaps villain is less accurate and more like an at least occasional a******.

a heartless, unloving, jerk

And I'm not sure how realistically he expected them to take little Loki seriously as a ruler, or how he'd expect Loki to WANT to rule them, when they are so looked down upon and reviled.

Well, he put an Asgardian in charge of Alfheim, so maybe he thinks this will work fine too.

I think there will be more to that story, honestly.

Nevertheless, I think this is likely.

 

[elizah72]

Well, as you two know, I just started reading the Simonson run, and you don't have to go far to find an example. So I got your Exhibit A right here:

#338, second issue of the run. Beta Ray Bill figures he's won Mjolnir fair and square. What is Odin's solution?
"You will fight weaponless, but for the power of your own right arms. . . . The victor's reward shall be Mjolnir, the enchanted hammer. The loser's reward shall be a funeral pyre."

So, he's sending his *son* (whom in panels before and after he says he loves dearly) into a death match against an alien whose abilities are unknown to him. (Thanks, Dad!) Yeah, he prefaces it by saying this is the way of the warriors, but later, when it winds up a draw, he somehow finds it in him to think of a creative solution. (And I realize that narratively, the purpose is to show how fine a warrior Beta Ray Bill is. But jeez louise, Odin. . .)

Nice. Yeah, stuff like that...

I don't know where this panel is from but...

Spoiler

Now why is Daddy beating up on and verbally abusing Thor?

To be fair, he does get haunted for that.

True. LOL... and to be fairer apparently

Spoiler

Loki turns out to the be sorcerer, gone back in time who kills Odin's dad and makes it so that Odin takes him in as a baby... but comics Odin probably deserved it.

Well, he put an Asgardian in charge of Alfheim, so maybe he thinks this will work fine too.

I think the temperaments on the Light Elves are probably good amount easier to get along with and manage than the Frost Giants are though. And they're not well.. GIANTS. LOL Loki truly would have had his work cut out for him, and maybe wouldn't have lived long after taking charge.

 

[American Maid]

True. LOL... and to be fairer apparently

Spoiler

Loki turns out to the be sorcerer, gone back in time who kills Odin's dad and makes it so that Odin takes him in as a baby... but comics Odin probably deserved it.

Yeah, they're all a bunch of sweethearts

I think the temperaments on the Light Elves are probably good amount easier to get along with and manage than the Frost Giants are though. And they're not well.. GIANTS. LOL Loki truly would have had his work cut out for him, and maybe wouldn't have lived long after taking charge.

Probably so!

PS I don't know where the panel was from. Maybe someone else can say.
PPS They handle that bit with Beta Ray Bill a little more sensibly in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes.

 

[elizah72]

Probably so!

Although Loki is significantly smarter than they are...

I love this guy he's like 'Oh, I think I'll roar loudly and charge the little guy from way across the battlefield. He won't move or anything, or like turn into a hologram so I go tumbling into the abyss.... nah... that'd never happen.'

So, Frost Giants are not too bright. Laufey was the smartest of the bunch and he still wound up outsmarted by Loki. Which is one of the reasons why I think Loki may turn out to be only being half Frost Giant, unless it's just the benefit of an Asgardian education Although, didnt seem to benefit Thor nearly as much. In the video game walkthrough I watched at one point Loki says to Thor "We'll turn you into a thinker yet." rofl @ sassy Loki.

And still I would question why Odin would think Loki would even want to rule the FG's, even being one of them, especially after father has regaled him since childhood of what a lovely bunch they are.

"What father? You want me to rule a frozen planet full of giants who hate us and who parents tell their children about at night? That isn't very good parenting, by the way... parents going around telling their children about scary monsters before bedtime and causing them to have terrible nightmares. But I digress... uh... wouldn't the guy with the large magical hammer be far better suited for that particular position?"

To get back to Thor 2, there was quite a bit of destruction on Jotunheim when Thor slammed his hammer down early in Thor 1, creating that big crack and chasm that FG's fell into, but then when Loki visited later it looked like that may have been repaired (??)... and then the destruction at the end of the movie. I wonder if the Frost Giants may have enough ability, working together especially, to repair the ice on their planet, and so it will appear pretty much in tact in Thor 2 for that reason.

 

[elizah72]

links to some panels for movie tie in comics. Definitely not canon, for one thing Kurse appears and we know he wont' be changing until Thor 2 (unless they show Algrim in flashback only, I suppose..)

thought I'd share as it may be hints to some ideas they may have been thinking of using in the films...
http://jestahbetd.tumblr.com/post/30264194935/first-6-pages-of-the-citadel-of-spires-the-thor
in particular:

Loki kinda flirts with Sif a little there and is quickly shot down. Surprisingly Sif sides with Loki on how to proceed and rescue Fandral
This is after Thor is a total ass to his brother he really puts him and his abilities down. Loki is trying to be smart and sensible and save Fandral and Thor is being an idiot. No wonder he didn't think he'd make a good king!
Loki holds his own verbally though "any idiot can swing a hammer" LOL
Continuity error, apparently Mjolnir is already enchanted so you have to be "worthy" to pick it up,
there is a Loki vs Malekith battle but Loki doesn't fair as well as I'd hoped (then again he may not have been as powerful as I think he likely is by Avengers)
Apparently Loki has a reputation already of being quite skilled at that point however.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120822065445/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/d/d0/Malekith_CA%26TA.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/_...icuniverse/images/1/1d/Loki_vs_Malekith_3.PNG

Sif barging in on Fandral and Alfyse. LOL
Thor has a "nobody picks on my little brother (but me!)" moment and electrocutes Malekith when he is about to kill Loki (not Malekith is already 1/2 dead or whatever at the start of this, and Loki doesn't know who Malekith is, but he knows who Loki is)
There is a bit where Volstagg is running across a "bridge" and it cracks and breaks, and in the original script Loki has a line to Volstagg (in response to his "silver tongue" remark something like "get me off this bridge before it cracks under your weight" LOL )
looks like Alfyse dies? Again not canon but I'd say if Marvel had her seemingly be killed in the movie tie in comic like this that is seems far less likely that she'll appear in Thor 2, and probably Malekith is the Dark Elves leader and not her.

and then we have this...

And here is Leader/Sam Sterns in the Nick Fury's Big Week Avengers tie in Comic.