Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[American Maid]

RE: surprises, I wonder if technically it's a "surprise" that Kurse turns on Malekith if it's already been a surprise in the comics... or if he's referring to other brand new surprises? t:

Probably both!! t:t:

I mean, it was a surprise to realize, based on the comment (by you, I think) in the News thread, that Algrim wasn't doing any fighting (at least against Thor). That opens up possibilities for the circumstances by which Algrim becomes Kurse. So there could be a lot of surprises around that. (I could also see that it's still Malekith who betrays him. That sounds just like Malekith, doesn't it? )

Kurse actually doesn't spend much time fighting Thor in the Simonson run (at least through the issues I've read). I'm glad to hear we will have a more extended fight between them! With Kurse being as big and strong as he is, we could have some serious knockback. Maybe even a crater or two! t:

Since Balder isn't in this story, we're bound to have some surprises with how the Malekith-Kurse storyline resolves (assuming, of course, that it exists)
They're pretty clever at spacing out the release of details to keep us interested!

I'm so pleased, it sounds like Loki's gonna see lots of fighting action, and not just more Thor-Loki (though I'm sure that'll happen some at least once)

Yeah, they're brothers after all .

And you're right--it sounds like Loki has several fights. So you may yet get your magic vs. magic fight!

 

[elizah72]

Probably both!! t:t:

I mean, it was a surprise to realize, based on the comment (by you, I think) in the News thread, that Algrim wasn't doing any fighting (at least against Thor). That opens up possibilities for the circumstances by which Algrim becomes Kurse. So there could be a lot of surprises around that. (I could also see that it's still Malekith who betrays him. That sounds just like Malekith, doesn't it? )

Yeah, I mean, that's what it sounds like from the interview. I would have said they'd have to show Algrim as a powerful warrior prior to changing but maybe not. Maybe instead of showing that, Malekith says that about him, and he's going to make him even better, with the tablet or a spell or whatever, and then later Kurse could turn on him in a Frankenstein's monster kind of way. Turn on the one who made him into this monster. Maybe they do it earlier than we think and he has to be kept caged up by Malekith until times that he's needed?

Of course on the Loki vs Kurse thing, Kurse sort of lashes out at anybody in his way, so Loki is not necessarily on the good guy side helping Thor, he may just get in the way of Kurse's wrath. But I am hoping he's helping, and maybe they have to work together to give Kurse that big blast that makes him remember that Malekith is the one who he should be after or knocks him out. t: It would seem that Kurse was definitely not at Greenwich though, as even with CGI to make him look bigger, he should have been there in makeup for either Kurse or Algrim.

Kurse actually doesn't spend much time fighting Thor in the Simonson run (at least through the issues I've read). I'm glad to hear we will have a more extended fight between them! With Kurse being as big and strong as he is, we could have some serious knockback. Maybe even a crater or two! t:

Ugh,... i was in the process of rewriting my summary to include some of the stuff we've been talking about but I think I will have to change again maybe. LOL

Since Balder isn't in this story, we're bound to have some surprises with how the Malekith-Kurse storyline resolves (assuming, of course, that it exists)
They're pretty clever at spacing out the release of details to keep us interested!

I dont think the Balder part of it will effect the Kurse-Malekith story anyway, what changes him is the big missing piece that has to be there that is likely to be different from the comic (Beyonder), just as what stops him will be different (Power Pack, in part), since those are extremely unlikely (and honestly I'm glad of it because I thought those characters were corny ).

Yeah, they're brothers after all .

yeah, as Hemsworth said, "I'm never talking to you again... you want to play football?"

Actually considering we've already had 2 big Loki-Thor fights, I suspect that anything we get in Thor 2 will be more of a quick tussle and shoving, than a major battle.... seems like it's been done, concentrate on the fights and such that have not been done.

And you're right--it sounds like Loki has several fights. So you may yet get your magic vs. magic fight!

I'd say! WOO-HOO!!! I''m still hoping he's the one to take Malekith out (if he does get taken out this movie)

Here's a minor clue about order of things after looking closely at a few pics, in Bourne Woods, and that picture of the Stuntman as Thor where he's sleeveless (which I think may have been from Iceland shoot), Thor's hair is back but the little braids that we see on his at Greenwich do not appear to be there, curiously. So maybe that was something done prior to a celebration like for his coronation? and he has to take off quickly to go save Midgard? Ugh... I can see I need to change my summary again. LOL

 

[cherokeesam]

in the interview it sort of sounds like Kurse also has blonde hair and blue eyes, but horns added. It sounds like he's going to look quite different from the comics version. I am also wondering if the reference in the Italian footage review to " a big "gorilla" krosan tusker" might have been Kurse, but something lost in translation or the person describing didn't know this was Kurse and didn't know how else to describe. Hm.

RE: surprises, I wonder if technically it's a "surprise" that Kurse turns on Malekith if it's already been a surprise in the comics... or if he's referring to other brand new surprises? t:

I'm so pleased, it sounds like Loki's gonna see lots of fighting action, and not just more Thor-Loki (though I'm sure that'll happen some at least once)

"Krosan tusker" translated perfectly. It's a monster from the trading card game "Magic: The Gathering." (Yes, there are TCG geeks in Italy, too. t

 

[American Maid]

<Algrim apparently isn't fighting Thor>

Yeah, I mean, that's what it sounds like from the interview. I would have said they'd have to show Algrim as a powerful warrior prior to changing but maybe not. Maybe instead of showing that, Malekith says that about him, and he's going to make him even better, with the tablet or a spell or whatever, and then later Kurse could turn on him in a Frankenstein's monster kind of way. Turn on the one who made him into this monster. Maybe they do it earlier than we think and he has to be kept caged up by Malekith until times that he's needed?

How about this: we've kicked around the idea of there being a flashback that shows how half of Malekith's face got to be the way it is. Maybe in that same confrontation, Algrim gets turned into Kurse. So we establish Algrim as a warrior of Svartalfheim, and then set it up for Kurse's later appearances, in the present-day, in the movie.

It could go several directions using this. It could be that Malekith betrays Algrim (but apparently not while Algrim is fighting Thor). It could be that Malekith is trying to make a super-dark-elf, but the spell doesn't go right, there's a big explosion, we get Kurse and Malekith gets a half burned face. It could be the attack that gives Malekith also strikes Algrim, and in the process of patching him up, Algrim winds up being Kurse, like Frankenstein's monster.

Picking up the redemption arc idea we had for Kurse a while back, it could be that the dark elves are all told about how irredeemably evil the Asgardians are. Somewhere along the line, Kurse sees that the true picture is more nuanced. (Maybe when the spell goes wrong, Malekith leaves him to die, and some Asgardian magic user (Odin if in the past, possibly Loki if in the present) stabilizes him (and if it's Loki, it doesn't have to be a post-redemption Loki. It could be that he does it for his own purposes, to have a marker in Svartalfheim).)

Maybe Kurse relates his origin to some of the other characters, in the way that Beta Ray Bill tells Odin and Thor his story (accompanied with flashbacks).

I think it works well to have the change be some point in the past. In the Simonson run, it's over a year in real time before we see Kurse again (from issue 348 to 364, as I recall)

Of course on the Loki vs Kurse thing, Kurse sort of lashes out at anybody in his way,

At least in Simonson's telling. Maybe they've cooked up something new here

so Loki is not necessarily on the good guy side helping Thor, he may just get in the way of Kurse's wrath. But I am hoping he's helping, and maybe they have to work together to give Kurse that big blast that makes him remember that Malekith is the one who he should be after or knocks him out. t:

That would be cool!

It would seem that Kurse was definitely not at Greenwich though, as even with CGI to make him look bigger, he should have been there in makeup for either Kurse or Algrim.

Agreed.

I said:

Kurse actually doesn't spend much time fighting Thor in the Simonson run (at least through the issues I've read). I'm glad to hear we will have a more extended fight between them! With Kurse being as big and strong as he is, we could have some serious knockback. Maybe even a crater or two! t:

Ugh,... i was in the process of rewriting my summary to include some of the stuff we've been talking about but I think I will have to change again maybe. LOL

My talk of craters is causing you to do a rewrite? Sorry about that! But it would be a shame to have some big fights without tearing up the turf!

I dont think the Balder part of it will effect the Kurse-Malekith story anyway,

What issue are you through?

what changes him is the big missing piece that has to be there that is likely to be different from the comic (Beyonder), just as what stops him will be different (Power Pack, in part), since those are extremely unlikely (and honestly I'm glad of it because I thought those characters were corny ).

Yeah.

<Thor and Loki fighting>

Actually considering we've already had 2 big Loki-Thor fights, I suspect that anything we get in Thor 2 will be more of a quick tussle and shoving, than a major battle.... seems like it's been done, concentrate on the fights and such that have not been done.

I agree. Maybe they will yell at each other. It would give Loki a chance to use some of that venom he has in the books.

Here's a minor clue about order of things after looking closely at a few pics, in Bourne Woods, and that picture of the Stuntman as Thor where he's sleeveless (which I think may have been from Iceland shoot), Thor's hair is back but the little braids that we see on his at Greenwich do not appear to be there, curiously. So maybe that was something done prior to a celebration like for his coronation? and he has to take off quickly to go save Midgard? Ugh... I can see I need to change my summary again. LOL

Well, when those Bourne Woods pictures first came out, I remember 04nbod made a comment about his braids. At the time I thought she was referring to how there's a lot of hair from the top of his head pulled back with about 3 bands at the back of his head near the crown. Later, when the University of Greenwich pictures came out, I saw the braids on the side of his head and remembered her comment. Still later, I saw another Bourne Woods picture where I thought I saw a little braid near his ear just like in University of Greenwich.

I think the Bourne Woods pictures are longer shots (basically people sitting in the woods photographing from afar). The braids are pretty small. So they will be hard to distinguish, especially from afar and especially if his hair is matted from sweat or dirt.

Here's another factor: the braids appear to be asymmetric. There appear to be more braids on the right side than on the left side. Compare, especially, pictures 4 and 5 from this post: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24629101&postcount=7

Now if you look at this picture from Bourne Woods, http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24304355&postcount=4, we see Bobby Holland Hanton's right side, and it looks like he might have a braid. We see Chris Hemsworth's left side, and he does not. Most of the images we have of Chris Hemsworth from Bourne Woods show primarily his left side.

Edit: here's the picture of Bobby Holland Hanton in the sleeveless costume in Iceland: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24598945&postcount=539 It's kind of hard to tell, but it looks like he might have a braid on the right side. None on the left.

Now, having said far more than I ever would have thought I would about braids, I'll say that your hypothesis is nevertheless possible. I still wonder about hair length every time I look at those photos.

Actually, looking at them again, I think the hair length may indeed be different. Look at the first photo here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24629093&postcount=6. The hair extends to about where the cape is no longer fastened to the metal support structure underneath it (see also the 2nd and 5th picture). Now go back and look at Bobby Holland Hanton again. His hair extends further down. His head is roughly in the same position as Hemsworth's in that first picture in the link in this paragraph, so the hair ought to be lying roughly the same in the two pictures.

(which could really mess up your summary!)

 

[jaqua99]

<Algrim apparently isn't fighting Thor>


How about this: we've kicked around the idea of there being a flashback that shows how half of Malekith's face got to be the way it is. Maybe in that same confrontation, Algrim gets turned into Kurse. So we establish Algrim as a warrior of Svartalfheim, and then set it up for Kurse's later appearances, in the present-day, in the movie.

It could go several directions using this. It could be that Malekith betrays Algrim (but apparently not while Algrim is fighting Thor). It could be that Malekith is trying to make a super-dark-elf, but the spell doesn't go right, there's a big explosion, we get Kurse and Malekith gets a half burned face. It could be the attack that gives Malekith also strikes Algrim, and in the process of patching him up, Algrim winds up being Kurse, like Frankenstein's monster.

Picking up the redemption arc idea we had for Kurse a while back, it could be that the dark elves are all told about how irredeemably evil the Asgardians are. Somewhere along the line, Kurse sees that the true picture is more nuanced. (Maybe when the spell goes wrong, Malekith leaves him to die, and some Asgardian magic user (Odin if in the past, possibly Loki if in the present) stabilizes him (and if it's Loki, it doesn't have to be a post-redemption Loki. It could be that he does it for his own purposes, to have a marker in Svartalfheim).)

Maybe Kurse relates his origin to some of the other characters, in the way that Beta Ray Bill tells Odin and Thor his story (accompanied with flashbacks).

I think it works well to have the change be some point in the past. In the Simonson run, it's over a year in real time before we see Kurse again (from issue 348 to 364, as I recall)


At least in Simonson's telling. Maybe they've cooked up something new here


That would be cool!


Agreed.

I said:

My talk of craters is causing you to do a rewrite? Sorry about that! But it would be a shame to have some big fights without tearing up the turf!



What issue are you through?



Yeah.

<Thor and Loki fighting>


I agree. Maybe they will yell at each other. It would give Loki a chance to use some of that venom he has in the books.



Well, when those Bourne Woods pictures first came out, I remember 04nbod made a comment about his braids. At the time I thought she was referring to how there's a lot of hair from the top of his head pulled back with about 3 bands at the back of his head near the crown. Later, when the University of Greenwich pictures came out, I saw the braids on the side of his head and remembered her comment. Still later, I saw another Bourne Woods picture where I thought I saw a little braid near his ear just like in University of Greenwich.

I think the Bourne Woods pictures are longer shots (basically people sitting in the woods photographing from afar). The braids are pretty small. So they will be hard to distinguish, especially from afar and especially if his hair is matted from sweat or dirt.

Here's another factor: the braids appear to be asymmetric. There appear to be more braids on the right side than on the left side. Compare, especially, pictures 4 and 5 from this post: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24629101&postcount=7

Now if you look at this picture from Bourne Woods, http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24304355&postcount=4, we see Bobby Holland Hanton's right side, and it looks like he might have a braid. We see Chris Hemsworth's left side, and he does not. Most of the images we have of Chris Hemsworth from Bourne Woods show primarily his left side.

Edit: here's the picture of Bobby Holland Hanton in the sleeveless costume in Iceland: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24598945&postcount=539 It's kind of hard to tell, but it looks like he might have a braid on the right side. None on the left.

Now, having said far more than I ever would have thought I would about braids, I'll say that your hypothesis is nevertheless possible. I still wonder about hair length every time I look at those photos.

Actually, looking at them again, I think the hair length may indeed be different. Look at the first photo here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24629093&postcount=6. The hair extends to about where the cape is no longer fastened to the metal support structure underneath it (see also the 2nd and 5th picture). Now go back and look at Bobby Holland Hanton again. His hair extends further down. His head is roughly in the same position as Hemsworth's in that first picture in the link in this paragraph, so the hair ought to be lying roughly the same in the two pictures.

(which could really mess up your summary!)

Yeah I like.

My thoughts are that the horns may be organic opposed to a helmet, which sounds fine for me.

Oh and AM, in case you want to save some typing here, you don't have to quote your sources, :P I'm sure it takes some time to pin point which events happened in each issue, I can assure you, most of us here thor fans have read most of the simonson run, some a few times over, and know what you are talking about, so you don't need to go hunt your source down, as we can vouch for ya, if it saves time :P which I assume it would since you don't type in here first

especially if you are tying out seperately, gosh isn't that a pain in the ass? hah I just type it all here, and if I notice an error, I will just edit it, and hope no one reads it before I finish my edit :P

 

[jaqua99]

as for a different relationship between kurse and malekith, hell, maybe there isn't a betrayal, and Kurse just happens to realize how evil malekith is, and turns on him, just like that! haha

Also, I like that it sounds like Kurse will be just pummeling anyone in his path. AND more anamalistic, sounds pretty uh..brainwashed to me.

 

[elizah72]

"Krosan tusker" translated perfectly. It's a monster from the trading card game "Magic: The Gathering." (Yes, there are TCG geeks in Italy, too. t

Yes but they are not going to use the exact creature that's in a game in the movie, are they? It's whatever comes closest to the description of what they saw, plus the word "gorilla" was used in addition, so one assumes that creature has a look that combines those two things in some way.

American Maid said:

It could go several directions using this. It could be that Malekith betrays Algrim (but apparently not while Algrim is fighting Thor). It could be that Malekith is trying to make a super-dark-elf, but the spell doesn't go right, there's a big explosion, we get Kurse and Malekith gets a half burned face. It could be the attack that gives Malekith also strikes Algrim, and in the process of patching him up, Algrim winds up being Kurse, like Frankenstein's monster.

possible, although I would suspect that his face damage is likely to be the result of something Odin or Thor did, making him "vengeful" per the synopsis. Also, I imagine it's quite a problem for Malekith to contain and control Kurse for any length of time, as even Hela can't handle him in Hel.

Picking up the redemption arc idea we had for Kurse a while back, it could be that the dark elves are all told about how irredeemably evil the Asgardians are. Somewhere along the line, Kurse sees that the true picture is more nuanced.

Maybe Kurse relates his origin to some of the other characters, in the way that Beta Ray Bill tells Odin and Thor his story (accompanied with flashbacks).

combining those two ideas might work, I'd think they'd have to severely turn down the unreasonable uncontrolled rage he has though, and I feel like that might be changing the character too much, and also it sounds like he's pretty feral and animalistic according to AAA. But maybe after he gets his revenge and lets go of the rage, if they do the same thing as in the comics, he could tell his tale, and again, maybe even lead the DE's in peace then.

My talk of craters is causing you to do a rewrite? Sorry about that! But it would be a shame to have some big fights without tearing up the turf!

no it was more the talk of all the Loki fights. LOL and Kurse fighting everyone, although I suppose that could all be in one group of scenes.

I agree. Maybe they will yell at each other. It would give Loki a chance to use some of that venom he has in the books.

I hope he gets some really good lines in this, one. He has some great jabs in the Simonson arc.

RE: braids yes it's hard to tell for sure

Now, having said far more than I ever would have thought I would about braids, I'll say that your hypothesis is nevertheless possible. I still wonder about hair length every time I look at those photos.

Actually, looking at them again, I think the hair length may indeed be different. Look at the first photo here: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24629093&postcount=6. The hair extends to about where the cape is no longer fastened to the metal support structure underneath it (see also the 2nd and 5th picture). Now go back and look at Bobby Holland Hanton again. His hair extends further down. His head is roughly in the same position as Hemsworth's in that first picture in the link in this paragraph, so the hair ought to be lying roughly the same in the two pictures.

(which could really mess up your summary!)

LOL REWRITE!

Yeah I like.

My thoughts are that the horns may be organic opposed to a helmet, which sounds fine for me.

Yeah I think it'll be different but should be cool, if they do that.

 

[American Maid]

Yeah I like.

Thanks!

My thoughts are that the horns may be organic opposed to a helmet, which sounds fine for me.

Yeah, I like that idea too.

as for a different relationship between kurse and malekith, hell, maybe there isn't a betrayal, and Kurse just happens to realize how evil malekith is, and turns on him, just like that! haha

Also, I like that it sounds like Kurse will be just pummeling anyone in his path. AND more anamalistic, sounds pretty uh..brainwashed to me.

You're probably right. Hey, maybe Algrim is possessed by a malevolent spirit, too

I also like the idea of Kurse just realizing how evil Malekith is. Maybe before that Algrim volunteers for Kurse duty (this would be analogous to Beta Ray Bill's story--one of his people selected to be the guardian and modified--only here it's from among the bad guys!)

Oh and AM, in case you want to save some typing here, you don't have to quote your sources, :P I'm sure it takes some time to pin point which events happened in each issue, I can assure you, most of us here thor fans have read most of the simonson run, some a few times over, and know what you are talking about, so you don't need to go hunt your source down, as we can vouch for ya, if it saves time :P which I assume it would since you don't type in here first

Recently I have been typing the posts directly into the "Advanced Reply" window. I suspect this means I'm about to get burned again by the Hype software. (I usually type my replies in WordPad because the Hype loses my drafts from time to time.)

In most of my recent posts, when I have cited an issue number, I admit I have indeed checked the issue number. So thanks for the free pass on that Sometimes I do it to help Elizah find what I'm talking about, but probably most of the time it qualifies as pedantry on my part .

As it happens, in this particular case, I wrote those issue numbers from memory. (That's how much of a fangirl I've become!)

But it will save me some time to skip that, so thanks!

 

[American Maid]

It could go several directions using this. It could be that Malekith betrays Algrim (but apparently not while Algrim is fighting Thor). It could be that Malekith is trying to make a super-dark-elf, but the spell doesn't go right, there's a big explosion, we get Kurse and Malekith gets a half burned face. It could be the attack that gives Malekith also strikes Algrim, and in the process of patching him up, Algrim winds up being Kurse, like Frankenstein's monster.

possible, although I would suspect that his face damage is likely to be the result of something Odin or Thor did, making him "vengeful" per the synopsis. Also, I imagine it's quite a problem for Malekith to contain and control Kurse for any length of time, as even Hela can't handle him in Hel.

Regarding Malekith's desire for vengeance, consider the following. Simonson has Odin trap Malekith in a black void at some point in the past, for reasons unspecified (at least in Simonson's run). So Odin could similarly constrain Malekith here. Malekith becomes determined to exact revenge on the Asgardians. His first step is to create a super-dark-elf. He gets the half-burned face, and blames Odin for that. People do that sometimes--blame others for things they did to themselves. The logic would be, "if Odin hadn't clipped my wings in the first place, I wouldn't have needed to make a super-dark-elf. So this is his fault too!"

I said:

Picking up the redemption arc idea we had for Kurse a while back, it could be that the dark elves are all told about how irredeemably evil the Asgardians are. Somewhere along the line, Kurse sees that the true picture is more nuanced.

Maybe Kurse relates his origin to some of the other characters, in the way that Beta Ray Bill tells Odin and Thor his story (accompanied with flashbacks).

combining those two ideas might work, I'd think they'd have to severely turn down the unreasonable uncontrolled rage he has though, and I feel like that might be changing the character too much, and also it sounds like he's pretty feral and animalistic according to AAA.

That's true.

But maybe after he gets his revenge and lets go of the rage, if they do the same thing as in the comics, he could tell his tale, and again, maybe even lead the DE's in peace then.

That could work too!

 

[jaqua99]

Thanks!



Yeah, I like that idea too.



You're probably right. Hey, maybe Algrim is possessed by a malevolent spirit, too

I also like the idea of Kurse just realizing how evil Malekith is. Maybe before that Algrim volunteers for Kurse duty (this would be analogous to Beta Ray Bill's story--one of his people selected to be the guardian and modified--only here it's from among the bad guys!)



Recently I have been typing the posts directly into the "Advanced Reply" window. I suspect this means I'm about to get burned again by the Hype software. (I usually type my replies in WordPad because the Hype loses my drafts from time to time.)

In most of my recent posts, when I have cited an issue number, I admit I have indeed checked the issue number. So thanks for the free pass on that Sometimes I do it to help Elizah find what I'm talking about, but probably most of the time it qualifies as pedantry on my part .

As it happens, in this particular case, I wrote those issue numbers from memory. (That's how much of a fangirl I've become!)

But it will save me some time to skip that, so thanks!

just helpin out :P

but I would love to see Bill eventually. I love he and Thor's brotherly relationship, I think it would be very refreshing to see on screen, not yet, but in the future

 

[elizah72]

OK, AM. we may have confirmation of sorts that Jane was indeed in Iceland even if Natalie Portman was not.... (per what I was suggesting earlier about long shots being done of them travelling and so Natalie not needed in Iceland for that reason)

http://www.castingcallpro.com/uk/view.php?uid=271384

She is also listed as Natalie's double in IMDB, notice after Thor the Dark World at the end Company/Venue it says Marvel Studios UK/Iceland

 

[elizah72]

And, *sigh* something more to think on, I had commented earlier about that casting site that someone lists himself as an "Ice Giant", I sort of assumed he meant "Frost Giant" but in light of recent speculations, and the whole idea that Thor and co may be taking a trip to Niffleheim and Hel, maybe not. In the Thor game and other places I see the Ice Giants are on Niffleheim, not Jotunheim, and their leader is Ymir (sort of an Ice version of Surtur it sounds), who is an ancient being in his own right (and myth sources have him as a father to all Ice Giants and Frost Giants. Myth sources have him as a grandfather of Odin as well)


Some info on comics Ymir here..
http://marvel.wikia.com/Ymir_(Earth-616)
"Except for the fire demon Surtur, Ymir was the oldest known being in the "Nine Worlds" of the Asgardian cosmology."

So now, I wonder about him as the ancient shadowy enemy. It would fit well with going to Niffleheim and maybe they come across them too. Or maybe they attack Asgard as well. I did wonder about using Ice Giants and Frost Giants in MCU but if the FG's are his "children" then it could be he could decide to attack Asgard in revenge for what was done to Jotunheim. (again, they may not know who was specifically responsible, only that it came from Asgard)

 

[American Maid]

OK, AM. we may have confirmation of sorts that Jane was indeed in Iceland even if Natalie Portman was not.... (per what I was suggesting earlier about long shots being done of them travelling and so Natalie not needed in Iceland for that reason)

http://www.castingcallpro.com/uk/view.php?uid=271384

She is also listed as Natalie's double in IMDB, notice after Thor the Dark World at the end Company/Venue it says Marvel Studios UK/Iceland

Once again, good find, Elizah! That actress isn't a bad match for a double, either.

Your assessment must be right--that they only show Jane in long shots as they're traveling along. I suppose any conversation they have at that point in the story was done on a sound stage.

Very interesting.

 

[American Maid]

And, *sigh* something more to think on, I had commented earlier about that casting site that someone lists himself as an "Ice Giant", I sort of assumed he meant "Frost Giant" but in light of recent speculations, and the whole idea that Thor and co may be taking a trip to Niffleheim and Hel, maybe not. In the Thor game and other places I see the Ice Giants are on Niffleheim, not Jotunheim, and their leader is Ymir (sort of an Ice version of Surtur it sounds), who is an ancient being in his own right (and myth sources have him as a father to all Ice Giants and Frost Giants. Myth sources have him as a grandfather of Odin as well)


Some info on comics Ymir here..
http://marvel.wikia.com/Ymir_(Earth-616)
"Except for the fire demon Surtur, Ymir was the oldest known being in the "Nine Worlds" of the Asgardian cosmology."

So now, I wonder about him as the ancient shadowy enemy. It would fit well with going to Niffleheim and maybe they come across them too. Or maybe they attack Asgard as well. I did wonder about using Ice Giants and Frost Giants in MCU but if the FG's are his "children" then it could be he could decide to attack Asgard in revenge for what was done to Jotunheim. (again, they may not know who was specifically responsible, only that it came from Asgard)

!!!! Something we had not anticipated! Wow, this really is showing us (most) all the Nine Realms!

Of course, you remember in the Simonson work, when Surtur confronts Odin, he brings Niffelheim into it. (And Odin is out of commission for a while there, too, which, logistically, we kind of need in this story). So maybe Surtur and Ymir are allied in this film somehow.

Note in that profile you linked from the Marvel Wikia the Vanir worshiped Ymir. HMMMMM.

It also says that Odin, Vili, and Ve killed him (but he got better), presumably on their way to Muspelheim. So built-in grudge right there.

Apparently Ymir is as smart as Thor, lol. So Loki just needs to create those extra Lokis and we're good

(BTW, I'm now thinking Marvel is a little unfair to Thor with the official intelligence rating. But he does seem to keep falling for the extra Lokis bit.)

 

[elizah72]

okay so here's something I'm thinking about. In Simonson arc with Malekith, he uses the Casket of Ancient Winters (which came from Ymir and Nifleheim from what I can tell) to help fulfill the ancient prophecy of Surtur coming and Ragnarok.

"Tonight we shall open the casket of ancient winters and release upon the earth the curse of ice that the destroying fire may come and together they shall cleanse it in a brighter darker image" #347 Malekith

So, we have lost the Casket, it may turn up, but I think using it again may be a bit like continuing to use the Tesseract every time... and we didn't see a box in Malekith's hands in Greenwich, it could be CGI, but sort of doubt it. We did see scenes that looked like he was summoning something. and we saw scenes where people were running away from something in the air, or something tall. We also saw a lot of stuff blowing around in some clips, which could be attested to Thor, but maybe not.

I think some were speculating early on that he was summoning Surtur, but per the prophecy it doesn't really work to just have Surtur come without the winter coming first...

Casket of Ancient winters link
http://marvel.com/universe/Casket_of_Ancient_Winters

The Casket of Ancient Winters was an Asgardian artifact, which contains the Fimbulwinter of Ymir;

Fimbulwinter
Fimbulvetr is the harsh winter that precedes the end of the world and puts an end to all life on Earth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fimbulwinter

SO.... if the casket is lost, how about if Malekith summoning the next best thing to Midgard to make things ready for Surtur? Ymir. Ymir is not smart and could be manipluated by Malekith or Surtur or Hela certainly, if he isn't keen to do this himself, or he could want revenge for the attack on his children of Jotunheim.

This is interesting too from the prospective of the next movie after Thor 2 being "The Winter Soldier" because perhaps the effect of Ymir are still being felt, even if he himself is defeated by Thor at the end of Thor 2, so still the world is being prepared for Surtur's eventual arrival in Thor 3. of course that may mean that we will have winter going on in Antman and A2, which I'm not sure about but maybe it's a slow process, set up by Ymir's arrival, and destruction (filling the atmosphere) slowing bringing a new ice age to Earth.

And maybe due to these mixed results of defeating Ymir, Thor decides to stay on Midgard and try to figure out how to right things again, and protect them from the anticipated eventual arrival of Surtur, possibly.

It seems as though this needs to happen (the icing over of Earth) before Surtur can arrive and start his part of it, though. And this scenario I've laid out I think could work and spread out the action enough. This would put the Greenwich fight at the end of Thor 2 though, I'd think. I can't see them fitting a full on Raganrok and Surtur into this too, on top of Malekith Kurse, and whoever else they are fighting into this one film.

 

[elizah72]

AM - And yes I know Thor's hair seems shorter at Greenwich than at Bourne Woods, however, if it's at the end and Thor's had some great victories, wars are over, and they are celebrating, they think Malekith defeated, and he's about to have a coronation so he's had a hair cut and he's looking good for that, not so scruffy as when he was fighting, when suddenly Malekith attacks Earth and goes looking for Jane who has returned for whatever reason. Then THor has to make a choice to stay and become king of Asgard or leave and defend Midgard and Jane. It could work, I think.

 

[American Maid]

okay so here's something I'm thinking about. In Simonson arc with Malekith, he uses the Casket of Ancient Winters (which came from Ymir and Nifleheim from what I can tell) to help fulfill the ancient prophecy of Surtur coming and Ragnarok. . . .It seems as though this needs to happen (the icing over of Earth) before Surtur can arrive and start his part of it, though.

Well, the Earth doesn't need to be engulfed in winter per se for Surtur to arrive. Malekith needed to open the Casket so that Surtur could break through the barrier between Muspelheim and the other Nine Realms. Malekith wanted to open it on Midgard so his own realm wouldn't get hosed in the process (of course, in the Simonson tale, it didn't work out that way).

Surtur went to Midgard because in Simonson's telling, that's how he could get to Asgard. The Asgardian army came down to New York (it's always New York) and met the demons there (though demons were attacking elsewhere, too). Surtur set fire to the city, Thor called down a storm to quench the fire, and thereafter a rainbow appeared, revealing the location of the Rainbow Bridge. D'oh! (nice going, Thor!)

In the movie, the Rainbow Bridge is pre-broken (nice going, Thor!) So Surtur needs a different path to Asgard. (He perhaps also needs a different way to bust out of Muspelheim). Perhaps that path is in Bourne Woods, and the Asgardian army rides out there to meet Surtur's forces.

I think some were speculating early on that he was summoning Surtur, but per the prophecy it doesn't really work to just have Surtur come without the winter coming first...

If there's a different McGuffin to spring him from Muspelheim, we may not need the winter at all.

SO.... if the casket is lost, how about if Malekith summoning the next best thing to Midgard to make things ready for Surtur? Ymir. Ymir is not smart and could be manipluated by Malekith or Surtur or Hela certainly, if he isn't keen to do this himself, or he could want revenge for the attack on his children of Jotunheim.

The one point that I hesitate on is the idea of CGI'ing a bunch of snow all over London.

Now, what I was alluding to when I brought up Niffelheim in a previous post concerns Surtur's use of the Ancient Winter once he is fighting Odin. He calls upon the forces of Niffelheim to rally to him, and the entire Ancient Winter gets sucked up out of Midgard and encases Odin. So Odin is stuck there for an issue or so.

And maybe due to these mixed results of defeating Ymir, Thor decides to stay on Midgard and try to figure out how to right things again, and protect them from the anticipated eventual arrival of Surtur, possibly.

That could be.

This would put the Greenwich fight at the end of Thor 2 though, I'd think. I can't see them fitting a full on Raganrok and Surtur into this too, on top of Malekith Kurse, and whoever else they are fighting into this one film.

Agreed.

And the fight with Malekith looks like a big one, so it could be part of the denouement of the film. What Malekith conjures with the big light could result in a cliffhanger for Thor3 as well. (The nature of which might also make Thor want to stay on Earth, just in case).

 

[American Maid]

AM - And yes I know Thor's hair seems shorter at Greenwich than at Bourne Woods, however, if it's at the end and Thor's had some great victories, wars are over, and they are celebrating, they think Malekith defeated, and he's about to have a coronation so he's had a hair cut and he's looking good for that, not so scruffy as when he was fighting, when suddenly Malekith attacks Earth and goes looking for Jane who has returned for whatever reason. Then THor has to make a choice to stay and become king of Asgard or leave and defend Midgard and Jane. It could work, I think.

Well, it sure does seem like his hair is shorter at Greenwich than at Bourne Woods. I/we could nevertheless be wrong about that, though.

What you outline could work, though.

 

[elizah72]

Yeah, I know they'll need some CGI, to make it winter in London, however, I did wonder about for instance what is coming across the water in that scene? Could be the river is icing over, and that's scaring people maybe? Since it's not winter and so sudden.

I really do think that that cataclysmic winter does have to happen first, it's in the mythos as I linked reference to, and it's in the comics as a prelude to Surtur and Ragnarok so I think that stuff is likely to stay together. Per the quote from Malekith, the fire and ice come together to cleanse (the Earth) in a brighter darker image. and note the word "darker" here. Hm? Now Malekith may simply find the Casket and use it I guess, but it's odd we don't see it then, and I think it'd be cooler to have this 1000 foot Ice Giant stomping around London that Thor then needs to stop. I think likely, if this is the order of things then Kurse is in Hel with Hela at this point already.

and in other scenes, where are Thor and Jane running off to? Where's the bus going? We don't see Malekith in those shots, or Dark Elves, so maybe something CGI.

 

[American Maid]

and in other scenes, where are Thor and Jane running off to? Where's the bus going? We don't see Malekith in those shots, or Dark Elves, so maybe something CGI.

I agree. Well, it could be that way.

Now, to be devil's advocate, here are some bits in support of the Greenwich footage coming early in the film: we see Erik and Jane clambering over the piles of rocks. "Ooo, what's this? What happened?" and then, "Run away! Run away!!"

If the Greenwich stuff comes late in the film, presumably Jane would be better informed about dark elves and other things from elsewhere in the Nine Realms.

 

[elizah72]

I agree. Well, it could be that way.

Now, to be devil's advocate, here are some bits in support of the Greenwich footage coming early in the film: we see Erik and Jane clambering over the piles of rocks. "Ooo, what's this? What happened?" and then, "Run away! Run away!!".

I didn't get that impression from the footage or pictures, could still be a big surprise and then they are trying to figure out what happened, when they meet up with Malekith. I always thought it was odd the way that Jane and Erik just stand there in that one set of footage, when Malekith comes strolling up to them after his Elves have left. Now again, too, some of this could be at different times but the same place due to Greenwich filling in for the Cottwolds in the comics.

You know I was thinking before that that might be a bit much to have this ominous extended winter building over several films, but the more I think about it, it would actually be a really cool way to keep the films all connected, now that Coulson is gone.

 

[elizah72]

Here is another thing that I think could be fit into the MCU sometime for some Ragnarok prophecies, maybe. The Well of Mimir

http://www.esotericonline.net/profiles/blogs/my-mimir-moment

 

[elizah72]

And just going back to Ymir for a second, found the below version of him interesting, if he's made to look more like a face and hands within a snow storm like this, certainly lots of CGI around London (and maybe they have some sets built to be snowed on where we cant see), and some explanation for all the scenes that were shot with people running and looking up but no Thor in site, if they see this strange scary storm coming from across the water. It would be pretty different than flying aliens that's for sure!

The following was originally posted by Vartha in a Frost Giants thread in the Thor forum. They were considering whether Ice Giants or Frost Giants would be in Thor 1.

I could be wrong but I'm under the impression that most if not all of the snow on Jotunheim in the first film was CGI, just based on some of the behind the scenes pics I've seen that seem to be without any snow at all flying around.

 

[American Maid]

I didn't get that impression from the footage or pictures, could still be a big surprise and then they are trying to figure out what happened, when they meet up with Malekith. I always thought it was odd the way that Jane and Erik just stand there in that one set of footage, when Malekith comes strolling up to them after his Elves have left. Now again, too, some of this could be at different times but the same place due to Greenwich filling in for the Cottwolds in the comics.

I was thinking primarily of the two pictures of Jane with the gadget: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=24763755&postcount=319
There's also a little bit of footage where she and Eric come running out of a building and down the rubble.

You make a good point about them being stopped in that one film clip (where THor pushes him away). Maybe Malekith casts a spell on them.

 

[jaqua99]

I doubt Ymir will be a big part of this film lol