Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

I think the variation in technology and looks has to do with making Nornheim look varied, as apparently it is in the comics. Karnilla is a sorceress, magic to her may look like advanced science to someone else.

if this is a rag tag band of marauders gathered from over time and space, come to reap destruction on Asgard and the 9 reams, that seems like a pretty big villain for the Asgardian's to deal with. So certainly not a small part if that is true. So how does that fit in with everything else we think is going to happen? It doesn't.

Questions:

how is a rag tag band of marauders gathered over time and space even remotely considered a "kingdom"? as described in the Shepperton Studios information released about that filming, it said it would be a battle between "two kingdoms" when Thor shows up to save the day.

There was also a note in one article Marvel Freshman did about a leader of the "marauder army" apparently requiring a ginger beard. The scenario that makes the most sense for that little tid bit is that the "marauder army" is Vanir. Otherwise, why would a random group of marauders need a leader with a "ginger beard".

If this is a rag tag band of marauders gathered over time and space, where do they keep all their horses? On their spaceship? Because they certainly wouldnt do well on a spaceship with no exercise, poor diet, and no fresh air and sunshine, with a bunch of nasty guys taking care of them.

And what of the guy on the white horse? Again, that's up there with a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" on it. A man on a white horse typically means a "good guy", and this guy is on what is a really beautiful *gleaming* white horse, to boot. but he seems to be with the team that is attacking the Asgardians (although it is hard to tell for sure who is fighting who here, I admit, I think all 3 groups are fighting at once, to be honest). And Freyr's description with the horse and the sword fits very well with the guy pictured.

How is gathering a crew of guys over time and space to marauder all over the place exploring the Nine Realms as we've been told will happen? It takes away from that, severely. There is no reason to add a group like that, there is enough to explore and enough going on without some random group of marauders that in the end mean nothing to the rest of the story.

 

[cherokeesam]

I think the variation in technology and looks has to do with making Nornheim look varied, as apparently it is in the comics. Karnilla is a sorceress, magic to her may look like advanced science to someone else.

Doesn't explain how or why she'd gather humans from the past and future (and possibly present) of Earth --- or other planets -- for such an army.

if this is a rag tag band of marauders gathered from over time and space, come to reap destruction on Asgard and the 9 reams, that seems like a pretty big villain for the Asgardian's to deal with. So certainly not a small part if that is true. So how does that fit in with everything else we think is going to happen? It doesn't.

*koff* Thanos *koff*
Fits in perfectly.
Also provides story links and continuity with *at least* two other Phase II films --- GOTG and Avengers 2.

Questions:

how is a rag tag band of marauders gathered over time and space even remotely considered a "kingdom"? as described in the Shepperton Studios information released about that filming, it said it would be a battle between "two kingdoms" when Thor shows up to save the day.

"Two kingdoms" don't have to be from the same planet. Or dimension. Odin's kingdom vs. Thanos' kingdom.

There was also a note in one article Marvel Freshman did about a leader of the "marauder army" apparently requiring a ginger beard. The scenario that makes the most sense for that little tid bit is that the "marauder army" is Vanir. Otherwise, why would a random group of marauders need a leader with a "ginger beard".

*A* leader of the marauder army; not "the" leader. Maybe they just need a medieval Highlander or ancient Celt or something, I dunno. And since when are the Vanir "gingers," anyway? Freyr and Freya have always been shown as Nordic blondes in the comics. If you're going to insist on "ginger" being a sticking point, that does as much damage to your theory as it does to mine.

If this is a rag tag band of marauders gathered over time and space, where do they keep all their horses? On their spaceship? Because they certainly wouldnt do well on a spaceship with no exercise, poor diet, and no fresh air and sunshine, with a bunch of nasty guys taking care of them.

Why would you need a spaceship to time travel...? If time travel is involved, as rumors suggest, it likely involves portals and wormholes, like virtually every other time travel movie ever made. The Marauders warp in from battlefields all across the timestream and cosmos.

And what of the guy on the white horse? Again, that's up there with a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" on it. A man on a white horse typically means a "good guy", and this guy is on what is a really beautiful *gleaming* white horse, to boot. but he seems to be with the team that is attacking the Asgardians (although it is hard to tell for sure who is fighting who here, I admit, I think all 3 groups are fighting at once, to be honest). And Freyr's description with the horse and the sword fits very well with the guy pictured.

You're reading too much into the white horse. Plenty of bad guys ride white horses. (And wear white hats, too.) But for the record, I personally believe the guy on the white horse is Tyr in armor. And I'm not sure which side he fights on in this movie --- maybe both. He's played both sides in the comic books.

How is gathering a crew of guys over time and space to marauder all over the place exploring the Nine Realms as we've been told will happen? It takes away from that, severely. There is no reason to add a group like that, there is enough to explore and enough going on without some random group of marauders that in the end mean nothing to the rest of the story.

What's "random" about Thanos? Thanos' involvement with Asgard may be very limited from canonical comics, but the MCU has *intimately* linked the Mad Titan to Loki, which is unprecedented. Everything that is an icon to Thanos -- the Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet -- are on Asgard, and the MCU has made a point of that. Thanos promised to come gunning for Loki if he failed the Chitauri invasion, and there's no way in hell that Marvel Studios is going to just sweep that under the rug as an idle threat.

Thanos *will* make good on his cinematic promise.

 

[elizah72]

Feige confirmed back in May that Thanos WILL NOT be in Thor 2.
http://collider.com/thor-2-sequel-kevin-feige/169494/

In a recent interview, Kevin Feige confirmed that the death-obsessed Eternal would not be making an appearance in Thor 2;

And as pretty much everyone on the planet knows by now, Loki was whisked away to Asgard at the end of The Avengers with a very anxious Thanos left floating around on his space throne. But will we see the supervillain again so soon?

“No, future, future. But there will be a major new villain. A major, major new antagonist…”

As an aside, I just noticed this. he says a "major new villain" - Malekith

and "a major major new antagonist..."

Hm... that would seem to be pointing to two different things. Antagonist is typically a description used of a character that isn't necessarily a villain per se, but an adversary of the protagonist of a story who struggles against and/or competes with them. IE: Asgardians VS Vanir in the myths. Not so much evil villains, but more grey multi layered antagonists.

Doesn't explain how or why she'd gather humans from the past and future (and possibly present) of Earth --- or other planets -- for such an army.

Why would you need a spaceship to time travel...? If time travel is involved, as rumors suggest, it likely involves portals and wormholes, like virtually every other time travel movie ever made. The Marauders warp in from battlefields all across the timestream and cosmos.

So you expect me to believe that these guys were just sucked in from whatever the heck they were doing through wormholes, then dropped off all together on Asgard, and they just right off the bat decide to band together and attack the Asgardians and get Loki for Thanos? Riiiiiiiiighht. That is completely off the wall implausible, for one thing they aren't even going to speak the same language, and that's for beginners.

and speaking of the timetravel thing, I mean, that would open a HUGE can of worms to open in the MCU. They have enough to deal with and keep straight. I cannot imagine that rumor is going to end up being true. That will make everything SO MUCH more complicated and confusing, and it already is complicated and has potential to become very confusing with all the different characters and powers and such.

*koff* Thanos *koff*
Fits in perfectly.
Also provides story links and continuity with *at least* two other Phase II films --- GOTG and Avengers 2.

see what I said above. Thanos will NOT be in this movie. This movie will be about THOR's world not GOTG and Avengers worlds.

What's "random" about Thanos? Thanos' involvement with Asgard may be very limited from canonical comics, but the MCU has *intimately* linked the Mad Titan to Loki, which is unprecedented. Everything that is an icon to Thanos -- the Cosmic Cube and the Infinity Gauntlet -- are on Asgard, and the MCU has made a point of that.

The "marauders" are random and Thanos is an Avengers villain, much less of a Thor villain. This movie is about Thor's world, not the Avengers world, as Feige and others keep telling us. And again Feige has confirmed Thanos will NOT be in Thor 2. (see above quotes again)

"Two kingdoms" don't have to be from the same planet. Or dimension. Odin's kingdom vs. Thanos' kingdom.

a random group of marauders who Thanos gathered from all over the space and time from different wormholes and dropped off to fight the Asgardians does not make a kingdom. It makes a mess, and a completely unnecessary one at that. Not when they have the whole 9 realms to play with.

*A* leader of the marauder army; not "the" leader. Maybe they just need a medieval Highlander or ancient Celt or something, I dunno. And since when are the Vanir "gingers," anyway? Freyr and Freya have always been shown as Nordic blondes in the comics. If you're going to insist on "ginger" being a sticking point, that does as much damage to your theory as it does to mine.

actually the original quote from the article on CBM said "the" leader. Although that guy mentioned in the article is likely a minor leader not the leader. I dont think that guy and the Freyr character will be the same actually, since he's supposed to be the most beautiful of the Vanir according to myth. Also, in regards to hair color, according to myth Thor was originally a redhead (so was Loki for that matter) it was the Comics and MCU that made him a blonde. So ginger for the Vanir because again, to make a distinction between them and the Asgardians, and to keep with the Nordic roots of the myths.

You're reading too much into the white horse. Plenty of bad guys ride white horses. (And wear white hats, too.) But for the record, I personally believe the guy on the white horse is Tyr in armor. And I'm not sure which side he fights on in this movie --- maybe both. He's played both sides in the comic books.

well I cant think of one but I'll take your word for it. As I said it is the *typical* symbol of a "good guy" not necessarily always adhered to.

And I'm assuming when we do see Tyr he will already be missing a hand, since he iconically is missing a hand. which is I suspect why they picked him because he'd be interesting and stand out for that reason. (and no I am not thinking they will show the story why either, it'll just be there). In any case, this guy is not missing either hand.

Thanos promised to come gunning for Loki if he failed the Chitauri invasion, and there's no way in hell that Marvel Studios is going to just sweep that under the rug as an idle threat.

Thanos *will* make good on his cinematic promise.

I'm not saying he won't but not in THIS movie. This movie is about THOR's world! Not the Avengers world! Plus they need something for Loki to be involved with in Avengers 2, if they have him in that one at all. (and with his popularity, I'll be a little surprised if he isnt in A2 in at least a small part, probably getting tortured by Thanos)

 

[jaqua99]

chill out guys. Right now neither of you are right, so lets not get hostile

If Thanos is in this, he will probably just have an appearance. But this movie will be staying to Thor mythos. I don't doubt that the mad titan won't appear, he will probably be referenced or sometihng, or a cameo, but he won't really be a plot.

I am not saying anything, but don't take Fiege's words so heavily. There is A LOT they don't tell us.

But as I said a few weeks ago, I don't think the mad titan will be in this movie, outside of a possible cameo. Some realms may be involved as well, but lets not get our hopes up. Cause based on everyone's thoughts right now, there is A LOT going on. With the dark elves, hela, karnilla, and all these realms and armies. I think it's a good idea, but I think it may be a little too much to work on film. I think primarily the races we will see are the dark elves, the asgardians, and that maurador army, who's ever army it is, be it hela, or someone else.

I just don't think it will be as packed as some of you are making it out to be, cause well, it just seems packed.

Don't forget, Fiege said this movie will be second only to the avengers in scale. And if it is anything like we are speculating, then it will blow away the avengers in terms of scale I think.

So that's my thought, we get malekith, kurse, dark elves, asgardians, and whoever this maurudor army is, possibly hela's. and then surtur's presence and an after credit scene. I don't see it getting more packed than this

maybe tyr will be the leader of this maurador army

 

[elizah72]

chill out guys. Right now neither of you are right, so lets not get hostile

LOL.... dont be so sure about that! We wont know until next Nov. unfortunately. I just hope I'm not still debating about this. I think we should just agree to disagree cherokeesam. And again, if anyone wants to come up with their own summary and figure out how their ideas work smoothly and seamlessly into a 2 hour film, then have at it. But I truly believe I have a large chunk of it right.

If Thanos is in this, he will probably just have an appearance. But this movie will be staying to Thor mythos. I don't doubt that the mad titan won't appear, he will probably be referenced or sometihng, or a cameo, but he won't really be a plot.

Exactly. If anything he might have a little cameo at the end or someone like the other comes in and grabs Loki, that they decided to do after Feige made that statement to tie in with A2. And he's most certainly going to be mentioned. but he's not going to have so large an impact on the movie as to be sending large armies of random marauders to attack Asgard and get Loki. This movie is going to be about Thor's world clearly, that's been indicated over and over again by more than once source!

I am not saying anything, but don't take Fiege's words so heavily. There is A LOT they don't tell us.

That is for sure.

But as I said a few weeks ago, I don't think the mad titan will be in this movie, outside of a possible cameo. Some realms may be involved as well, but lets not get our hopes up. Cause based on everyone's thoughts right now, there is A LOT going on. With the dark elves, hela, karnilla, and all these realms and armies. I think it's a good idea, but I think it may be a little too much to work on film. I think primarily the races we will see are the dark elves, the asgardians, and that maurador army, who's ever army it is, be it hela, or someone else.

here is something I was thinking about, what Surtur is saved for Thor 3, but the majority of Thor 2 is just hinted at, maybe a cameo, maybe just pulling some strings to get things going behind the scenes as that "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself." But otherwise the majority of the fighting takes place between Malekith The Dark Elves, and this rival "tribe" the Vanir being dealt with by the Asgardians. That way it isnt until Thor 3 that the Vanir and Asgardians (and Nornheim) work out their differences and fight against Surtur. That would leave a lot more room for character development and other story stuff and a cliff hanger for Thor 3 with what this fire demon guy is up to. I recall it being discussed somewhere that the original synopsis for Thor was not as exactly clear when you see what really happened, so what is said in this synopsis might not necessarily mean that shadowy enemy will make himself completely known to Thor and co during the course of the film.

I just don't think it will be as packed as some of you are making it out to be, cause well, it just seems packed.

I know, i thought I was "unpacking" it, believe it or not.

 

[jaqua99]

LOL.... dont be so sure about that! We wont know until next Nov. unfortunately. I just hope I'm not still debating about this. I think we should just agree to disagree cherokeesam. And again, if anyone wants to come up with their own summary and figure out how their ideas work smoothly and seamlessly into a 2 hour film, then have at it. But I truly believe I have a large chunk of it right.

Yeah. I mean, unless I am reading yours wrong, if you think in this next comment, is what happens, then I am on board.

Exactly. If anything he might have a little cameo at the end or someone like the other comes in and grabs Loki, that they decided to do after Feige made that statement to tie in with A2. And he's most certainly going to be mentioned. but he's not going to have so large an impact on the movie as to be sending large armies of random marauders to attack Asgard and get Loki. This movie is going to be about Thor's world clearly, that's been indicated over and over again by more than once source!

Yea. Clearly. Just because Thanos is THE big bad for this phase, he should be expected to atleast be refferenced, cause Sam does have a point. He threatened Loki. Thanos is not one to just let that go.

here is something I was thinking about, what Surtur is saved for Thor 3, but the majority of Thor 2 is just hinted at, maybe a cameo, maybe just pulling some strings to get things going behind the scenes as that "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself." But otherwise the majority of the fighting takes place between Malekith The Dark Elves, and this rival "tribe" the Vanir being dealt with by the Asgardians. That way it isnt until Thor 3 that the Vanir and Asgardians (and Nornheim) work out their differences and fight against Surtur. That would leave a lot more room for character development and other story stuff and a cliff hanger for Thor 3 with what this fire demon guy is up to. I recall it being discussed somewhere that the original synopsis for Thor was not as exactly clear when you see what really happened, so what is said in this synopsis might not necessarily mean that shadowy enemy will make himself completely known to Thor and co during the course of the film.

See, this is what I think will happen. I think that due to the bifrost being destroyed, that the realms will be in chaos, and the majority of the fighting will be as you said. Between the Elves, vanir, and Nornheim. I think Hela will have a role. Malekith seeks to take advantage of this, and Odin's weaker state. He is trying to present himself as a dominant force in the 9 realms. One the armies from another realm will be fighting him. Algrim I think will be killed by Thor early on. Where he gets transformed into Kurse by Surtur, and brought back to life by Hela. I don't have the time to think of all these middle details, but ultimately it will end with thor fighting malekith. Kurse takes on thor, defeats thor, or thor holds his own. malekith does his thing, somehow, kurse remembers, attacks malekith. Thor and Kurse see the deal, and don't fight. Meanwhile, Surtur has been in the backround, and will appear after credits. I am leaning more towards that niw.

So my very brief summary is that with the bifrost destroyed, chaos is through out the 9 realms. Some of which are at war. Malekith is contacted somehow by surtur, given power (maybe, yet, could explain why he is able to fight Thor, cause Thor should be tearing malekith appart) maybe. Malekith wants to take advantage of this chaos, and his new knowledge and power, and assert himself as the dominant being of the 9 realms. He gets at war this some other realms, thor travels to a darker side of asgard to get Loki's help, who in turn goes to hela. they must fight to stop malekith from completing his plan and plunging the 9 realms into darkness. Meanwhile, Surtur has created a diversion where he can work on twilight in peace, where he plans to destroy the 9 realms, and kill Odin.

He is revealed welding Twilight after credits.

That's where I am at. Very brief. I do prefer Surtur to appear after credits as well, I think that's the best route, like you said. Literally the only thing that is keeping me from it, is that in the synopsis it sounds like said villain (again, hard to believe its anyone but surtur at this point) will have a role in the movie. But again, the synopsis can be decieving, so I understand that. But I think he will have a very strong presence in the movie, and the plot for the 3rd film may even be strongly hinted at, I also expect to hear him referred to by name in this movie. Again, I know synopsis can be hard to make out, but even this soundds like it will be slightly more than a mere presence to lead into a 3rd movie. I think he will be doing his own thing the entire movie, like you said. However I think he will probably be refered to by malekith, possibly even by name. Like I said, if he is the one to turn Algrim into Kurse, we may get a refference of him, or even see it happen.

Who knows



I

know, i thought I was "unpacking" it, believe it or not.

FUNNY

 

[elizah72]

Yea. Clearly. Just because Thanos is THE big bad for this phase, he should be expected to atleast be refferenced, cause Sam does have a point. He threatened Loki. Thanos is not one to just let that go.

I don't think he would, I do agree with that, but I really think the place that's going to be sorted out is in A2.

On your synopsis, I am agreeing with the majority of it. Only thing I question is Hela/Surtur and Kurse, I think they'll appear probably but not sure at what capacity, and I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of the Beyonder/Cosmic Cube/Tesseract stuff winding up being mixed in with Jane and Selvig and their wormhole experiments. That could be a reason why Jane may be brought to Asgard, to try to get Odin to talk sense into her and to drop that as being too dangerous a power for Earth to have. Lots of foreshadowing of danger that she would ultimately ignore and pay the price. That would hit pretty hard if the possession stuff is true and she is transforms and Thor can't save her (at least in Thor 2), lots of drama potential there. And in movies creating drama is a good thing. Much more interesting and heartbreaking to watch than just having Hela or Surtur do it. But maybe. I don't have a HUGE problem with it otherwise. I think Surtur powering up Malekith is very likely though, good idea! That would solve that problem because Malekith appears to be holding his own pretty well.

Here is the synopsis for Thor 1

Paramount Pictures and Marvel Entertainment present the epic adventure, “Thor,” which spans the Marvel Universe from present day Earth to the realm of Asgard. At the center of the story is the mighty Thor (Chris Hemsworth), a powerful but arrogant warrior whose reckless actions reignite an ancient war. Thor is cast down to Earth by his father Odin (Anthony Hopkins) and is forced to live among humans. A beautiful, young scientist, Jane Foster (Natalie Portman), has a profound effect on Thor, as she ultimately becomes his first love. It’s while here on Earth that Thor learns what it takes to be a true hero when the most dangerous villain of his world sends the darkest forces of Asgard to invade Earth.

so ancient war refers to the Frost Giants, and darkest forces of Asgard refer to The Destroyer, and "most dangers villain of his world" refers to Loki. However there was so much more than that going on and explored with their relationship in the film, and that is not hinted at here at all. I would also add that the antagonist of Shield that he has to deal with in the film is not mentioned at all in the synopsis. So clearly there is stuff they aren't telling us. I do think in the Thor 2 synopsis, that that phrase you are saying is an indicator of Surtur, could only be referring to him working behind the scenes throughout the film, and not necessarily showing himself. Just as I think some of the stuff above was a bit of an exaggeration/understatement about certain characters roles.

And comparison the Thor 2 synopsis

Marvel’s Thor: The Dark World continues the big-screen adventures of Thor, the Mighty Avenger, as he battles to save Earth and all the Nine Realms from a shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself. In the aftermath of Marvel’s Thor and Marvel’s The Avengers, Thor fights to restore order across the cosmos…but an ancient race led by the vengeful Malekith returns to plunge the universe back into darkness. Faced with an enemy that even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand, Thor must embark on his most perilous and personal journey yet, one that will reunite him with Jane Foster and force him to sacrifice everything to save us all.

so one thing that has bothered me about this Surtur thing for "shadowy enemy" is that when I see pictures of him the last thing I think of is "shadowy", if you know what I mean. So it could be that he's behaving in a shadowy manner, pulling strings and starting fights behind the scenes and out of view from the Asgardians (but not necessarily the audience), and maybe they suspect that but don't know for sure if it's him or Thanos doing this. And so that solves that problem (I think) without having to have things come to a head with him during the course of the film. Just keep him behaving shadowy until Thor 3.

"Fights to restore order across the cosmos", which I believe is referring to fighting among the Vanir, Nornheim, Asgard and whatever other realms they want to work in there that are now fighting and jostling for power after the bifrost is destroyed and it looks like the Asgardians have lost control. This keeps the Asgardians busy for most of the film, which is why they don't come down to help Thor with the Dark Elves on Earth.

"but an ancient race let by Malekith," now this makes me think that there may be some fight scenes prior to the Earth ones that they are filming now, that shows Thor defeating the Dark Elves (this could be where Alfheim comes into it, if they attack Alfheim or could be they attack Odin's palace and Frigga dies here) and Thor and co manage to slap them back down to Svartalheim, and maybe injures Malekith in the process, and this is why Malekith is vengeful and sets his eyes on Earth next if he knows that Thor cares about it somehow. This could also be the point where Surtur comes in and gives him a boost, as you suggest. and I assume Surtur or Hela may also be able to give him the lead on what or who Thor cares about for his revenge.

Now the "faced with an enemy even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand" that bothers me, because that would seem to indicate Surtur will appear and kill Odin in this film. But, it might very well be simply foreshadowing Thor 3. I don't know. I have been thinking that both Odin and Frigga dying in Thor 2 is really too much. I think it's only going to be only one at this point. I also have questions about whether they would really do Ragnarok at all, especially at the end of Thor 2, (seems waaaaaay too early for that) however again this phrasing would seem to be foreshadowing it, but may be foreshadowing for the 3rd film.

 

[American Maid]

Jon (Aqua) said:

I am not saying anything, but don't take Fiege's words so heavily. There is A LOT they don't tell us.

A while back I looked up a bunch of Feige pronouncements on movies that have already been released. My take on them was that he leaves out details and keeps it mysterious. That's quite reasonable; he's trying to stoke excitement about the movie. But he doesn't dissemble.

BTW, I think a lot of your synopsis makes sense. I am back to leaning toward Surtur in Thor 3, which would mean that the fight with Malekith is the big showdown. They can foreshadow Surtur and have a lot of room to do new story (or weave in another favorite bit) in Thor3 prior to the big showdown with Surtur. Of course, Thanos will be referenced, and may turn out to be behind some of the events of the film (such as the army) without him appearing in the film or acting directly.

Elizah said:

"but an ancient race let by Malekith," now this makes me think that there may be some fight scenes prior to the Earth ones that they are filming now, that shows Thor defeating the Dark Elves (this could be where Alfheim comes into it, if they attack Alfheim or could be they attack Odin's palace and Frigga dies here)

Yeah, I think the big fight at Greenwich University comes later in the film than other fights. Thor shadowboxes for some of that fight. That suggests Kurse, and that suggests Algrim has already changed. Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje was in Iceland for that shoot. So maybe Thor fights Algrim in Iceland, and he's transformed there. (Natalie Portman was not in Iceland, so that suggests that the malevolent spirit does not change Algrim into Kurse).

Elizah said:

I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of the Beyonder/Cosmic Cube/Tesseract stuff winding up being mixed in with Jane and Selvig and their wormhole experiments. That could be a reason why Jane may be brought to Asgard, to try to get Odin to talk sense into her and to drop that as being too dangerous a power for Earth to have. Lots of foreshadowing of danger that she would ultimately ignore and pay the price. That would hit pretty hard if the possession stuff is true and she is transforms and Thor can't save her (at least in Thor 2), lots of drama potential there. And in movies creating drama is a good thing. Much more interesting and heartbreaking to watch than just having Hela or Surtur do it.

You might be talking about the malevolent spirit transforming Algrim into Kurse, but I'm going to assume you're talking about Jane flaming out because she's overwhelmed by the malevolent spirit.

I have kind of mixed feelings about this angle. Jane is playing a role in the story that uses her abilities, so she's not just a love interest. That's a good thing. The idea of Odin trying to forbid Jane from conducting her research is rather condescending. Granted, that's not inconsistent with canon about Odin, but no one is scolding Erik, for example. Also, there are plenty of examples in history in which authorities can forestall, but cannot ultimately hold back, truth. Even if they succeed in talking Jane out of doing the research, someone else will.

And I'm a little uneasy about the idea of Jane flaming out because of the malevolent spirit. I know you, Elizah, have seen this article; in case others have not, here is the link: http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/is-thor-a-feminist-movie-yes/ The article remarks about how there are four strong female characters in the film (while Jane has her flaws (and Frigga's role was pared back too much), she is stronger than a lot of other female characters in cinema.) One of the points it makes is "Jane is never punished in the narrative for being a workaholic". This idea of the flameout kind of seems like the narrative is going to punish Jane for being a scientist (in a way that Erik, who has already been possessed and already opened a portal that lets a bunch of bad guys onto Midgard, has not been).

But I'm also still puzzled as to how this possession thing fits into the rest of the story. There are aspects of it that don't make sense. In addition to the power level of the malevolent spirit, which I've mentioned before, here's another question. Why can't Odin successfully exorcise the malevolent spirit? Why does she need to tag along with Thor and Loki? There are some pieces missing.

 

[elizah72]

You might be talking about the malevolent spirit transforming Algrim into Kurse, but I'm going to assume you're talking about Jane flaming out because she's overwhelmed by the malevolent spirit.

I have kind of mixed feelings about this angle. Jane is playing a role in the story that uses her abilities, so she's not just a love interest. That's a good thing. The idea of Odin trying to forbid Jane from conducting her research is rather condescending. Granted, that's not inconsistent with canon about Odin, but no one is scolding Erik, for example. Also, there are plenty of examples in history in which authorities can forestall, but cannot ultimately hold back, truth. Even if they succeed in talking Jane out of doing the research, someone else will.

And I'm a little uneasy about the idea of Jane flaming out because of the malevolent spirit. I know you, Elizah, have seen this article; in case others have not, here is the link: http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/is-thor-a-feminist-movie-yes/ The article remarks about how there are four strong female characters in the film (while Jane has her flaws (and Frigga's role was pared back too much), she is stronger than a lot of other female characters in cinema.) One of the points it makes is "Jane is never punished in the narrative for being a workaholic". This idea of the flameout kind of seems like the narrative is going to punish Jane for being a scientist (in a way that Erik, who has already been possessed and already opened a portal that lets a bunch of bad guys onto Midgard, has not been).

Well Doc Oc and Curt Connors and Norman Osborn were all "punished" for their work (among many others I could name off). This is a common thing to use to create villain or antagonist in comics especially. I don't see why they should leave Jane out of that just because she's a woman. That would be sexist of them. And Jane ignoring Odin, would go along with Jane's personality as we all saw her ignore Erik's warnings about Thor in Thor 1.

But I'm also still puzzled as to how this possession thing fits into the rest of the story. There are aspects of it that don't make sense. In addition to the power level of the malevolent spirit, which I've mentioned before, here's another question. Why can't Odin successfully exorcise the malevolent spirit? Why does she need to tag along with Thor and Loki? There are some pieces missing.

or some pieces just plain wrong. I still think that guy was just guessing on some parts of this at least, filing in the blanks. Even the bigger named actors on films like this only get their pages of scripts, they can't necessarily get a clear picture of the story from that. So I am leaning towards it happening late in the game, if at all, at the moment anyway. I'm figuring what I'm figuring a great deal based on what happens in the comics, until I see more evidence. Maybe if we're lucky this coming week more light will be shed on this stuff as I think they may still be filming there until the 4th.

Yeah, I think the big fight at Greenwich University comes later in the film than other fights. Thor shadowboxes for some of that fight. That suggests Kurse, and that suggests Algrim has already changed. Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje was in Iceland for that shoot. So maybe Thor fights Algrim in Iceland, and he's transformed there. (Natalie Portman was not in Iceland, so that suggests that the malevolent spirit does not change Algrim into Kurse).

So if you are saying that Jane is unlikely to be there for that, because she wasn't there in Iceland, then you are also saying that she wasn't there for the big trek with Thor and Loki, which I believe was part of the Iceland shoot. So again, Lawden may have been filling in some blanks himself and guessing wrong. It's very frustrating, in any case.

 

[American Maid]

Well Doc Oc and Curt Connors and Norman Osborn were all "punished" for their work (among many others I could name off). This is a common thing to use to create villain or antagonist in comics especially. I don't see why they should leave Jane out of that just because she's a woman. That would be sexist of them. And Jane ignoring Odin, would go along with Jane's personality as we all saw her ignore Erik's warnings about Thor in Thor 1.

Well, both points true about the villains and about Jane ignoring Erik. (So does that imply that Jane is going to become a villain? To how many heroes (or sympathetic characters) does it happen?)

or some pieces just plain wrong. I still think that guy was just guessing on some parts of this at least, filing in the blanks. Even the bigger named actors on films like this only get their pages of scripts, they can't necessarily get a clear picture of the story from that. So I am leaning towards it happening late in the game, if at all, at the moment anyway. I'm figuring what I'm figuring a great deal based on what happens in the comics, until I see more evidence. Maybe if we're lucky this coming week more light will be shed on this stuff as I think they may still be filming there until the 4th.

Well, as you have mentioned before, some aspects of the story will be original or departing from the comics. I would think that is more likely to be the case for a character that wasn't in this story line in the books

That's not to say you are not right about him being wrong (!) In any event, I agree; we don't really have a clear picture.

So if you are saying that Jane is unlikely to be there for that, because she wasn't there in Iceland, then you are also saying that she wasn't there for the big trek with Thor and Loki, which I believe was part of the Iceland shoot. So again, Lawden may have been filling in some blanks himself and guessing wrong. It's very frustrating, in any case.

Well, the first part doesn't necessarily imply the second part. Maybe Algrim is transformed before Thor, Jane, and Loki embark on their trek (like in a flashback, for example ) That is, maybe (some of) the Iceland shoot was not part of the trek. As far as I know, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje was not in the Greenwich University shoot. So that implies the transformation does not happen at Greenwich University.

<shrug>

 

[elizah72]

Well, both points true about the villains and about Jane ignoring Erik. (So does that imply that Jane is going to become a villain? To how many heroes (or sympathetic characters) does it happen?)

Oh I don't know. I'm sure quite a few... I found Doc Oc in the Sam Raimi Spiderman movies quite sympathetic, Curt Connors more recently is, Harvey Dent/Two Face in Batman was a sympathetic workaholic. And I'm sure plenty have become superheros due to their workaholicness (Bruce Banner being one...). I'm sure there are tons. They've been doing better at having the villains have more depth in the films though ,than in the comics. Again, it's a common theme, and it shouldn't matter whatsoever if the character is male or female. It's a way to create drama and yet give those characters depth. And I think it would very very interesting to see how Thor handles it if she turns into a villain in this way. But then I really like interesting characterizations and drama more than I like fights and stuff exploding.

Well, the first part doesn't necessarily imply the second part. Maybe Algrim is transformed before Thor, Jane, and Loki embark on their trek (like in a flashback, for example ) That is, maybe (some of) the Iceland shoot was not part of the trek. As far as I know, Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje was not in the Greenwich University shoot. So that implies the transformation does not happen at Greenwich University.

Maybe... should be interesting to see if any more comes out next week.

 

[American Maid]

<punished for their work--Elizah mentioned some villains who have met this fate>

(So does that imply that Jane is going to become a villain? To how many heroes (or sympathetic characters) does it happen?)

Oh I don't know. I'm sure quite a few... I found Doc Oc in the Sam Raimi Spiderman movies quite sympathetic, Curt Connors more recently is, Harvey Dent/Two Face in Batman was a sympathetic workaholic. And I'm sure plenty have become superheros due to their workaholicness (Bruce Banner being one...). I'm sure there are tons. They've been doing better at having the villains have more depth in the films though ,than in the comics.

Well, by "sympathetic characters", I meant, "people who would be counted among the good guys but are not the actual heroes". The hero's supporting cast.

I posed the same question in person to someone more expert in comics than me. The Fantastic Four was the only case that they could think of. No cases among various supporting casts. I mentioned Banner (ie punished for his work, not for being a workaholic), to which the response was that that's true of movie-Banner, but for comics-Banner, it wasn't like that (he ran out onto the test range to save someone else who had wound up there).

So apparently it's not without precedent, but rare.

Regarding villains having depth, villains often are more interesting than heroes, because in general, villains act, whereas heroes react.

 

[jaqua99]

I don't think he would, I do agree with that, but I really think the place that's going to be sorted out is in A2.

Not too sure I would bank on Loki appearing in Avengers 2. He has no reason to. I mean, I don't know. i am still on board with the whole masters of evil thing, so I dont really have much to say on avengers 2 at the moment, in terms of figuring out what is going on, it puts thor to shame, so god knows lol.

O

n your synopsis, I am agreeing with the majority of it. Only thing I question is Hela/Surtur and Kurse, I think they'll appear probably but not sure at what capacity, and I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of the Beyonder/Cosmic Cube/Tesseract stuff winding up being mixed in with Jane and Selvig and their wormhole experiments. That could be a reason why Jane may be brought to Asgard, to try to get Odin to talk sense into her and to drop that as being too dangerous a power for Earth to have. Lots of foreshadowing of danger that she would ultimately ignore and pay the price. That would hit pretty hard if the possession stuff is true and she is transforms and Thor can't save her (at least in Thor 2), lots of drama potential there. And in movies creating drama is a good thing. Much more interesting and heartbreaking to watch than just having Hela or Surtur do it. But maybe. I don't have a HUGE problem with it otherwise. I think Surtur powering up Malekith is very likely though, good idea! That would solve that problem because Malekith appears to be holding his own pretty well.

I like. Thoguh I think you may be looking a wee bit into the tesseract thing. I just don't see the beyonder appearing in this movie. It is essentially god, and well, if he is still portrayed as he is, I just dont think it will happen. It seems a bit touchy, especially with religious people. I think that it will be hela or surtur to change algrim. I just don't see them introducing the beyonder, even as the sentient cosmic cube, into this movie
Here is the synopsis for Thor 1

so ancient war refers to the Frost Giants, and darkest forces of Asgard refer to The Destroyer, and "most dangers villain of his world" refers to Loki. However there was so much more than that going on and explored with their relationship in the film, and that is not hinted at here at all. I would also add that the antagonist of Shield that he has to deal with in the film is not mentioned at all in the synopsis. So clearly there is stuff they aren't telling us. I do think in the Thor 2 synopsis, that that phrase you are saying is an indicator of Surtur, could only be referring to him working behind the scenes throughout the film, and not necessarily showing himself. Just as I think some of the stuff above was a bit of an exaggeration/understatement about certain characters roles.

And comparison the Thor 2 synopsis



so one thing that has bothered me about this Surtur thing for "shadowy enemy" is that when I see pictures of him the last thing I think of is "shadowy", if you know what I mean. So it could be that he's behaving in a shadowy manner, pulling strings and starting fights behind the scenes and out of view from the Asgardians (but not necessarily the audience), and maybe they suspect that but don't know for sure if it's him or Thanos doing this. And so that solves that problem (I think) without having to have things come to a head with him during the course of the film. Just keep him behaving shadowy until Thor 3.

Okay. I am with you heere.... Elizah, I like it!


"

Fights to restore order across the cosmos", which I believe is referring to fighting among the Vanir, Nornheim, Asgard and whatever other realms they want to work in there that are now fighting and jostling for power after the bifrost is destroyed and it looks like the Asgardians have lost control. This keeps the Asgardians busy for most of the film, which is why they don't come down to help Thor with the Dark Elves on Earth.

"but an ancient race let by Malekith," now this makes me think that there may be some fight scenes prior to the Earth ones that they are filming now, that shows Thor defeating the Dark Elves (this could be where Alfheim comes into it, if they attack Alfheim or could be they attack Odin's palace and Frigga dies here) and Thor and co manage to slap them back down to Svartalheim, and maybe injures Malekith in the process, and this is why Malekith is vengeful and sets his eyes on Earth next if he knows that Thor cares about it somehow. This could also be the point where Surtur comes in and gives him a boost, as you suggest. and I assume Surtur or Hela may also be able to give him the lead on what or who Thor cares about for his revenge.

Exactly. I think there will be more battles than what we are seeing. Perhaps some battles in other realms too.

Now the "faced with an enemy even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand" that bothers me, because that would seem to indicate Surtur will appear and kill Odin in this film. But, it might very well be simply foreshadowing Thor 3. I don't know. I have been thinking that both Odin and Frigga dying in Thor 2 is really too much. I think it's only going to be only one at this point. I also have questions about whether they would really do Ragnarok at all, especially at the end of Thor 2, (seems waaaaaay too early for that) however again this phrasing would seem to be foreshadowing it, but may be foreshadowing for the 3rd film.

I agree with all of this as well. It could be forshadowing. Everything you said here is what is my concern when it comes to dissecting this synopsis. We'll see in time I suppose

Jon (Aqua) said:


A while back I looked up a bunch of Feige pronouncements on movies that have already been released. My take on them was that he leaves out details and keeps it mysterious. That's quite reasonable; he's trying to stoke excitement about the movie. But he doesn't dissemble.

Agreed

BTW, I think a lot of your synopsis makes sense. I am back to leaning toward Surtur in Thor 3, which would mean that the fight with Malekith is the big showdown. They can foreshadow Surtur and have a lot of room to do new story (or weave in another favorite bit) in Thor3 prior to the big showdown with Surtur. Of course, Thanos will be referenced, and may turn out to be behind some of the events of the film (such as the army) without him appearing in the film or acting directly.

That's what I think. The synopsis is just throwing me off a bit. I assume surtur will appear after the credits.

Elizah said:

Yeah, I think the big fight at Greenwich University comes later in the film than other fights. Thor shadowboxes for some of that fight. That suggests Kurse, and that suggests Algrim has already changed. Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje was in Iceland for that shoot. So maybe Thor fights Algrim in Iceland, and he's transformed there. (Natalie Portman was not in Iceland, so that suggests that the malevolent spirit does not change Algrim into Kurse).

I still say Surtur transforms kurse

Elizah said:


You might be talking about the malevolent spirit transforming Algrim into Kurse, but I'm going to assume you're talking about Jane flaming out because she's overwhelmed by the malevolent spirit.

I have kind of mixed feelings about this angle. Jane is playing a role in the story that uses her abilities, so she's not just a love interest. That's a good thing. The idea of Odin trying to forbid Jane from conducting her research is rather condescending. Granted, that's not inconsistent with canon about Odin, but no one is scolding Erik, for example. Also, there are plenty of examples in history in which authorities can forestall, but cannot ultimately hold back, truth. Even if they succeed in talking Jane out of doing the research, someone else will.

And I'm a little uneasy about the idea of Jane flaming out because of the malevolent spirit. I know you, Elizah, have seen this article; in case others have not, here is the link: http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/is-thor-a-feminist-movie-yes/ The article remarks about how there are four strong female characters in the film (while Jane has her flaws (and Frigga's role was pared back too much), she is stronger than a lot of other female characters in cinema.) One of the points it makes is "Jane is never punished in the narrative for being a workaholic". This idea of the flameout kind of seems like the narrative is going to punish Jane for being a scientist (in a way that Erik, who has already been possessed and already opened a portal that lets a bunch of bad guys onto Midgard, has not been).

But I'm also still puzzled as to how this possession thing fits into the rest of the story. There are aspects of it that don't make sense. In addition to the power level of the malevolent spirit, which I've mentioned before, here's another question. Why can't Odin successfully exorcise the malevolent spirit? Why does she need to tag along with Thor and Loki? There are some pieces missing.

as to the possession. It could be something very minor. the first synopsis for thor 1, as elizah said, was most certainly decieving. The whole jane being possessed could be something as minor as, a random spirit or energy possessing jane, and then they free it.

crap, that wasn't in the synopsis. So idk, nevermind lol

 

[cherokeesam]

Feige confirmed back in May that Thanos WILL NOT be in Thor 2.
http://collider.com/thor-2-sequel-kevin-feige/169494/

Feige also said there would be no Chitauri in The Avengers, when asked directly about it.

As an aside, I just noticed this. he says a "major new villain" - Malekith

and "a major major new antagonist..."

Hm... that would seem to be pointing to two different things. Antagonist is typically a description used of a character that isn't necessarily a villain per se, but an adversary of the protagonist of a story who struggles against and/or competes with them. IE: Asgardians VS Vanir in the myths. Not so much evil villains, but more grey multi layered antagonists.

Neither Malekith nor the Vanir would even remotely qualify as "major" villains/antagonists. Malekith is a very minor Thor character, whose only import in the comics is as the "herald" for Surtur in the Twilight Sword saga. The Vanir are almost nonexistent in the pages of Thor comics, and certainly wouldn't be considered "villains."

The "major" new villain/antagonist (one and the same; Feige isn't talking about two different things here, just reiterating his previous sentence) has most likely not even been introduced into the plot synopsis/set descriptions we have so far....that much I'll agree with you about. But Surtur seems by and large the safest bet to fulfill that role, based on what we know of the Twilight Sword saga that this movie is clearly based on.

Or maybe Chthon, if the theory that "The Other" is Chthon plays out.

So you expect me to believe that these guys were just sucked in from whatever the heck they were doing through wormholes, then dropped off all together on Asgard, and they just right off the bat decide to band together and attack the Asgardians and get Loki for Thanos? Riiiiiiiiighht. That is completely off the wall implausible, for one thing they aren't even going to speak the same language, and that's for beginners.

Yeah --- just as implausible as an army of alien Chitauri loyally following some Asgardian outcast they don't share anything in common with. Or some magic sceptre being able to seize the minds of whole hordes of people from another planet.

and speaking of the timetravel thing, I mean, that would open a HUGE can of worms to open in the MCU. They have enough to deal with and keep straight. I cannot imagine that rumor is going to end up being true. That will make everything SO MUCH more complicated and confusing, and it already is complicated and has potential to become very confusing with all the different characters and powers and such.

Yes, time travel will open up a huge can of worms. Just as it does in the comics. But the writing is on the wall....it's hard to ignore the increasing evidence that time travel plays a part in TDW.

see what I said above. Thanos will NOT be in this movie. This movie will be about THOR's world not GOTG and Avengers worlds.



The "marauders" are random and Thanos is an Avengers villain, much less of a Thor villain. This movie is about Thor's world, not the Avengers world, as Feige and others keep telling us. And again Feige has confirmed Thanos will NOT be in Thor 2. (see above quotes again)

Thanos might not be in this movie; but there's a very good chance that The Other might, acting on Thanos' behalf.

You can dislike it all you want, but the fact remains that Thanos and The Other ARE "Thor's world" now. Yes, it's not canonical to the comics, but the MCU has linked Thanos intimately with Loki, and the Mad Titan is now just as much a part of Thor's cinematic mythos as the Asgardians, Dark Elves, and the rest of them.

 

[elizah72]

Not too sure I would bank on Loki appearing in Avengers 2. He has no reason to. I mean, I don't know. i am still on board with the whole masters of evil thing, so I dont really have much to say on avengers 2 at the moment, in terms of figuring out what is going on, it puts thor to shame, so god knows lol.

I would have a hard time working him into the plot at the moment, other than if Thanos did deal with him then, or he threatened him if Loki didnt help him get the IG for him or something. Then just that small part, and they definitely wont' use him so heavily as he was in the first. Although I hate to have one of Tom's 6 films (that he's contracted for) wasted by only having a small part though, but *shrugs*

I like. Thoguh I think you may be looking a wee bit into the tesseract thing. I just don't see the beyonder appearing in this movie. It is essentially god, and well, if he is still portrayed as he is, I just dont think it will happen. It seems a bit touchy, especially with religious people. I think that it will be hela or surtur to change algrim. I just don't see them introducing the beyonder, even as the sentient cosmic cube, into this movie

So would Hela be a bit touchy for the religious people, i'd think, Valhala too. LOL

I agree with all of this as well. It could be forshadowing. Everything you said here is what is my concern when it comes to dissecting this synopsis. We'll see in time I suppose

Yup.

as to the possession. It could be something very minor. the first synopsis for thor 1, as elizah said, was most certainly decieving. The whole jane being possessed could be something as minor as, a random spirit or energy possessing jane, and then they free it.

crap, that wasn't in the synopsis. So idk, nevermind lol

could be or could be not true, exactly.

Cherokeesam.... let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, as I said above. I could argue with you about this until next November, believe me. I'd rather move on and agree to disagree at this point as I'm obviously not going to convince you of what's actually going on until you see it with your own eyes on the big screen.

 

[cherokeesam]

Cherokeesam.... let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, as I said above. I could argue with you about this until next November, believe me. I'd rather move on and agree to disagree at this point as I'm obviously not going to convince you of what's actually going on until you see it with your own eyes on the big screen.

Or vice versa.

 

[elizah72]

Just some pictures of interest with those going along with the Asgardians/Vanir/Nornheim idea about the fights in the Bourne woods. In spoiler buttons just because size of pictures.

Spoiler

Guys in red armor fighting Thor and Sif. Guy with Dredlocks fighting Asgardian on the left, and guy with headband in blue is most definitely fighting guy in red armor on the right.

look directly above guy on white horse and you will see Asgardian battling another guy with similar helmet and horns to the guys on the horses.

Thor stomping guy in green, appears to have armor/helmet on head.

You have to zoom in a bit on this one, upper left, bald guy by hut is readying sword for oncoming guy with helmet. Center: guy with blue clothes and headband is fighting guy with horned helmet.

Center, another shot of Asgardian vs guy with horned helmet. Just behind him but to the left, guy in blue with headband is fighting another guy with horned helmet. To the right, Asgardian and horned helmet guy readying for battle? Further left, horned helmet guy menacing and holding a couple civilians hostage?

Towards the back Sif and Thor fighting guys in armor (1 with horned helmet), in front of that, Asgardian is attacking another guy, while another Asgardian kneels down to check on someone or possibly is falling on someone on the ground.

Guy with gun and dreadlocks is leaving the scene ???

So... like I said, BIG melee LOL, and the guys with the headbands are definitely fighting the guys with armor and helmets. And the Asgardians are definitely fighting the guys with the armor and helmets.

The guys with dreadlocks, bald guys with little or no armor, and the demons, I'm not as certain about, but I am leaning towards most being among the collection of characters on Nornheim (along with the guys with the headbands & red on their heads) and the armored guys are the invaders (which would make sense why they are so well armored up, and others are not).

And my thought is that Nornheim and Vanir are fighting and *neither* of these like the Asgardians, so when the Asgardians come to break it up they have to fight both (although I've yet to find an Asgardian fighting a guy with headband)

Hopefully most if not all these pictures will come up.

 

[American Maid]

as to the possession. It could be something very minor. the first synopsis for thor 1, as elizah said, was most certainly decieving. The whole jane being possessed could be something as minor as, a random spirit or energy possessing jane, and then they free it.

Yeah, it occurred to me that the possession might be nothing more than a plot device to get Loki into the story. If Jane is able to open portals from the beginning of the movie, Thor would not be forced to make a deal with Loki. But if she is temporarily incapacitated, Thor would have to ask Loki for help. So then Thor would have to choose to set aside Loki's punishment, perhaps putting people at risk in the future because Loki is out again without rehabilitation, in order to serve the cause at hand--protecting Asgard, etc. (a moral sacrifice)

In such a context, the possession would be a fairly minor plot detail that perhaps the studio would not mind being leaked. (especially if it keeps the fans distracted for a while )

 

[elizah72]

I just noticed this which may be of interest to the story...

To rescue Lorelei, Thor went to the English Cotswolds, where stood the faerie castle that serves as a nexus between Earth and the other dimensional faerie realm of Svartalfheim.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Algrim_(Earth-616)

Also, one thing that's been bothering me about the armored helmeted dudes on the attack here, is such variation there. Some really look like they have the Viking influence with the horns, and others not so much (such as the red armor guys). I am wondering now if perhaps Malekith and the Dark Elves team up with the Vanir, to attack Asgard, starting with Nornheim (possibly to get their hands on the 3 Norns?), and so the Viking looking guys on horses are the Vanir, and the other odder looking armored guys are Dark Elves who must cover up completely due to not being able to be out in the sun without turning to stone/burning (as I proposed earlier, based on the myths). So the guy I was wondering about in the Kurse thread a while back, could actually wind up being Algrim in a full armor, as we were once considering. I still feel like I see an outline of a skull on his chest. And maybe while that is going on Malekith and more Dark Elves are attacking Odin's palace/elsewhere.

 

[American Maid]

I just noticed this which may be of interest to the story...

To rescue Lorelei, Thor went to the English Cotswolds, where stood the faerie castle that serves as a nexus between Earth and the other dimensional faerie realm of Svartalfheim.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Algrim_(Earth-616)

That's where that note is! I had read it a while back, and then later couldn't dig it up again. I had been wondering if they would use Stonehenge instead of the faerie castle mentioned above to get to Svartalfheim. Thinking about it some more, Greenwich University could stand in for the castle.

Also, one thing that's been bothering me about the armored helmeted dudes on the attack here, is such variation there. Some really look like they have the Viking influence with the horns, and others not so much (such as the red armor guys). I am wondering now if perhaps Malekith and the Dark Elves team up with the Vanir, to attack Asgard, starting with Nornheim (possibly to get their hands on the 3 Norns?), and so the Viking looking guys on horses are the Vanir, and the other odder looking armored guys are Dark Elves who must cover up completely due to not being able to be out in the sun without turning to stone/burning (as I proposed earlier, based on the myths). So the guy I was wondering about in the Kurse thread a while back, could actually wind up being Algrim in a full armor, as we were once considering. I still feel like I see an outline of a skull on his chest. And maybe while that is going on Malekith and more Dark Elves are attacking Odin's palace/elsewhere.

I feel obligated to pick a historical nit: actual Vikings did not incorporate horns into their helmets. That said, those guys with the horned helmets do look like they have design elements that are in the same general vein as Vikings and Aesir.

To flesh it out: what is the Vanir's beef with Asgard? If they currently have trade pact, what does it benefit them by teaming up with the Dark Elves? (ie, what is their motivation?)

Regarding the Norn, I have the impression that they are like oracles. They merely inform of what will come to pass. They don't directly control or influence events. So I'm not certain what the objective would be in capturing them.

I agree that likely another attack is going on. Maybe this attack is to draw off the main army.

 

[jaqua99]

I just noticed this which may be of interest to the story...



http://marvel.wikia.com/Algrim_(Earth-616)

Also, one thing that's been bothering me about the armored helmeted dudes on the attack here, is such variation there. Some really look like they have the Viking influence with the horns, and others not so much (such as the red armor guys). I am wondering now if perhaps Malekith and the Dark Elves team up with the Vanir, to attack Asgard, starting with Nornheim (possibly to get their hands on the 3 Norns?), and so the Viking looking guys on horses are the Vanir, and the other odder looking armored guys are Dark Elves who must cover up completely due to not being able to be out in the sun without turning to stone/burning (as I proposed earlier, based on the myths). So the guy I was wondering about in the Kurse thread a while back, could actually wind up being Algrim in a full armor, as we were once considering. I still feel like I see an outline of a skull on his chest. And maybe while that is going on Malekith and more Dark Elves are attacking Odin's palace/elsewhere.

the thing with that though, 1 Kurse is huge. I doubt very much Kurse will be like that. Cause strength and durability is what he's got going for him. He dwarfs Hulk in strength, and sure, he may not be THAT strong in the MCU, but he is going to be hella strong. And a man smaller than Chris being THAT strong, in terms of pace with the MCU, it may be a bit hard to see that. So I still think Kurse is gonna be big. Not as big as Hulk, but big.

This guy doesn't resemble kurse at all, unless he is algrim, but he just doesn't resemble him, I would figure they would atleast try to work the horns in.

And the big thing. That design on his chest, I've seen it on other characters in this army. Other people who have similar armour on, have that design on the chest, so I think it is safe to say this probably isn't Kurse.

I don't care how over the top he looks in the comics, I think designing him in the MCU exactly like he is in the comics (except have the colors be a bit darker) I think that would look awesome and fit right into this world

 

[elizah72]

That's where that note is! I had read it a while back, and then later couldn't dig it up again. I had been wondering if they would use Stonehenge instead of the faerie castle mentioned above to get to Svartalfheim. Thinking about it some more, Greenwich University could stand in for the castle.

Yes. I was thinking one of those sites could do that there.

I feel obligated to pick a historical nit: actual Vikings did not incorporate horns into their helmets. That said, those guys with the horned helmets do look like they have design elements that are in the same general vein as Vikings and Aesir.

Fair enough, was thinking I'd only ever seen Vikings with horns on their heads in film etc, never seen an actual Viking in person though. LOL

To flesh it out: what is the Vanir's beef with Asgard? If they currently have trade pact, what does it benefit them by teaming up with the Dark Elves? (ie, what is their motivation?)

Again if they (or at least their head man) is sick of letting the Asgardians be in charge and see an opportunity for more power, then that is certainly enough reason for this. From what I can tell from the myths the Asgardians have a history of screwing the Vanir over (such as when they came to a peace treaty and traded people/hostages. The Vanir were so annoyed with who they got in return they cut one guy's head off and sent it back to Odin), so it may be a very very uneasy truce with the Vanir.

Regarding the Norn, I have the impression that they are like oracles. They merely inform of what will come to pass. They don't directly control or influence events. So I'm not certain what the objective would be in capturing them.

I would think the one who is responsible for predicting the future may be of interest to them. Past and present may also be able to reveal things that would help them in their goal for more power over the 9 realms.

I agree that likely another attack is going on. Maybe this attack is to draw off the main army.

Very possibly.

the thing with that though, 1 Kurse is huge. I doubt very much Kurse will be like that. Cause strength and durability is what he's got going for him. He dwarfs Hulk in strength, and sure, he may not be THAT strong in the MCU, but he is going to be hella strong. And a man smaller than Chris being THAT strong, in terms of pace with the MCU, it may be a bit hard to see that. So I still think Kurse is gonna be big. Not as big as Hulk, but big.

This guy doesn't resemble kurse at all, unless he is algrim, but he just doesn't resemble him, I would figure they would atleast try to work the horns in.

And the big thing. That design on his chest, I've seen it on other characters in this army. Other people who have similar armour on, have that design on the chest, so I think it is safe to say this probably isn't Kurse.

I don't care how over the top he looks in the comics, I think designing him in the MCU exactly like he is in the comics (except have the colors be a bit darker) I think that would look awesome and fit right into this world

I'm saying he may be ALgrim there, not Kurse, in a fight early on, the elves have to cover up here because they can't be exposed to sunlight. The other stuff on Earth where they are out in sunlight, we are hypothesizing that Malekith may have done something to make it safe for the Elves there, made the world dark for them (and I think sam mentioned that they do film stuff in daylight and sometimes use a different lens to make it night, or could CGI in the sky to make it darker or whatever effect they are going for). But maybe he's not I just thought that it was a possibility that the Elves are working with the Vanir here, possibly to help create a distraction and draw the Asgardian army away from the palace where another attack will take place. And again that goes along with possible motivation for the Vanir to act, if Malekith comes in (with Surtur's instruction possibly) and sort of eggs them on that now is the time to oust the Asgardians from power.

 

[American Maid]

Fair enough, was thinking I'd only ever seen Vikings with horns on their heads in film etc, never seen an actual Viking in person though. LOL

So you're saying you didn't see any of these guys in the Bourne Woods pics?
<joke picture deleted>

(Apologies for the tiny size; this is my first time uploading attachments. I may also be restricted by my relative junior status.)

More seriously, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking): "Viking helmets were conical, made from hard leather with wood and metallic reinforcement for regular troops. The iron helmet with mask and chain mail was for the chieftains, based on the previous Vendel-age helmets from central Sweden. The only true Viking helmet found is that from Gjermundbu in Norway. This helmet is made of iron and has been dated to the 10th century."

Also from the Wikipedia page, an artist's depiction from not long after the Viking Age:


<I asked about the Vanir's motivation for attacking Asgard>

Again if they (or at least their head man) is sick of letting the Asgardians be in charge and see an opportunity for more power, then that is certainly enough reason for this. From what I can tell from the myths the Asgardians have a history of screwing the Vanir over (such as when they came to a peace treaty and traded people/hostages. The Vanir were so annoyed with who they got in return they cut one guy's head off and sent it back to Odin), so it may be a very very uneasy truce with the Vanir.

Very good reasons indeed. I like it! Lots of chickens coming home to roost.

I just thought that it was a possibility that the Elves are working with the Vanir here, possibly to help create a distraction and draw the Asgardian army away from the palace where another attack will take place. And again that goes along with possible motivation for the Vanir to act, if Malekith comes in (with Surtur's instruction possibly) and sort of eggs them on that now is the time to oust the Asgardians from power.

I can very well see lots of groups trying to take advantage of the relative power vacuum caused by a weakened Asgard isolated by the destroyed Bifrost.

 

[elizah72]

So you're saying you didn't see any of these guys in the Bourne Woods pics?

Nope, indeed I did not!

<I asked about the Vanir's motivation for attacking Asgard>
Very good reasons indeed. I like it! Lots of chickens coming home to roost.

A bit of info about the mythological war between the Vanir and the Aesir (Asgardians) and what the Vanir's beef is there...
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0118142/norsepan/warbtwav.php

I can very well see lots of groups trying to take advantage of the relative power vacuum caused by a weakened Asgard isolated by the destroyed Bifrost.

Definitely! I do hope they go back and look through some of this mythological stuff to use in the MCU a bit more than has been done in the comics, I've been having fun looking stuff up.

 

[American Maid]

A bit of info about the mythological war between the Vanir and the Aesir (Asgardians) and what the Vanir's beef is there...
http://library.thinkquest.org/C0118142/norsepan/warbtwav.php

Well, maybe that's where they could set Aesir-Vanir relations. The Vanir want equal status with the Aesir and are on the march.