Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

Perhaps Lorelei has cast her spell on Papa Odin as well. Odin may be out on the market again after next year.

 

[jaqua99]

will have to think on that some more, will let you know if I think of any alternates.

Who that voice is aside, back to Mistress Death a second, might I point out that figure that hands Loki the scepter, That is a different cloak from the other and a very feminine looking white arm and hand. I would not be surprised if that turns out to be her.

And just as a *what if* with that in mind, *what if* at the end of Thor, Loki did die, and met up with Mistress Death, but he talks himself out of this death, charms or tricks her or whatever, and she spares him and she is the one who brings him to Thanos as an ally? That would be an interesting dynamic to work with for those characters, and might explain why Thanos may not go after Loki right away if he's one of his beloved's "pets". Having seen a few panels with Mephisto, Death and Thanos, I think Loki could fill that Mephisto part in certain ways, with Thanos venting frustration about how to impress her and Loki basically toying with that whole situation. That would be fun to see.

And I think earlier on you were against Mistress Death possibly being the Krige character, but it seems she should be involved later in Phase 2 with Thanos, but she needs to be introduced, and what better time than in "the dark world" where we are sure to see lots of warriors and possibly even established characters dying. It would seem like she'd have the power to change Algrim to Kurse, yes? If given reason to. And she could be the force that Odin has to deal with that takes him out of commission for a time. (I think she could also be considered a shadowy enemy that predates the universe, and one that even Odin and Asgard cannot withstand, and that would take care of introducing her prior to Avengers 2, without necessarily showing Thanos at all). Can you shed any light on her character, what motivates her in the comics by the way? The panels I've seen she doesn't do a lot of talking.

Also wouldn't mind some light shed on Mephisto's role in the whole Thanos - Death relationship? Because I found one panel where Thanos is whining about why doesn't she love me and Mephisto is trying to explain it to him, and another where Thanos is angry that Mephisto has tried to trick him, but I'm missing some pieces to that puzzle. LOL Again I sort of think Loki could fill that part to some extent and have fun with that in A2 (if he's in A2 that is) I'm talking specifically of the Mephisto-Thanos-Death dynamic and how the characters interact with each other.

mephisto is not part of the relationship between thanos and death at all. Like, at all lol. No relationship whatsoever. Mephisto was simply in the infinity gauntlet as his minion basically. There is no relationship between thanos and mephisto just as there is no relationship between thanos and thor. That was mephisto's role in the infinity gauntlet. but he isn't on the personal level death and thanos are. they are their OWN thing

 

[elizah72]

mephisto is not part of the relationship between thanos and death at all. Like, at all lol. No relationship whatsoever. Mephisto was simply in the infinity gauntlet as his minion basically. There is no relationship between thanos and mephisto just as there is no relationship between thanos and thor. That was mephisto's role in the infinity gauntlet. but he isn't on the personal level death and thanos are. they are their OWN thing

This is what I mean (from my other post in case you didn't read it entirely)....

And I have read that at one point Mephisto talks Thanos into depowering (only using 1 gem in the IG) a bit and fighting the heros in a way that there is a chance they might defeat him, in order to better impress Mistress Death, and then the Gauntlet is nearly stolen from him as a result. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about as a place where MCU Loki could fit in, as well as the part where Mephisto tries to steal the IG from Thanos.

So it sounds like Mephisto was manipulating Thanos' feelings for Death some to give him an opportunity to try to steal the IG. It also fits well for the film if the IG is use, if Thanos were to make him self "defeatable" in the same way (though I know that he still defeated those heros in the comics, may be different in the MCU). That manipulation and behavior by Mephisto is what I mean by "relationship"/dynamic, (he also seem to suck up to Thanos, all the while looking to gain something for himself) So I don't necessarily mean a personal friendship or anything, just how he deals with them. Does he do that type of stuff often or was it just that panel or two?

I'm still giggling over the idea that they could totally do that whole thing where Loki pretends to be Thor and kisses Sif so Jane sees (like happened with Lorelei and Sif in the comics).... that would be SO hilarious! She'd be SO pissed! And you know she's been dying for an excuse to kick Loki's ass. And it could give Jane a reason she may decide to go back to Midgard mid movie. Not to mention, having Chris, playing Loki playing Thor.... oh, man that would be good. I hope they do that.

 

[jaqua99]

This is what I mean (from my other post in case you didn't read it entirely)....

And I have read that at one point Mephisto talks Thanos into depowering (only using 1 gem in the IG) a bit and fighting the heros in a way that there is a chance they might defeat him, in order to better impress Mistress Death, and then the Gauntlet is nearly stolen from him as a result. That is the sort of thing I'm talking about as a place where MCU Loki could fit in, as well as the part where Mephisto tries to steal the IG from Thanos.

So it sounds like Mephisto was manipulating Thanos' feelings for Death some to give him an opportunity to try to steal the IG. It also fits well for the film if the IG is use, if Thanos were to make him self "defeatable" in the same way (though I know that he still defeated those heros in the comics, may be different in the MCU). That manipulation and behavior by Mephisto is what I mean by "relationship"/dynamic, (he also seem to suck up to Thanos, all the while looking to gain something for himself) So I don't necessarily mean a personal friendship or anything, just how he deals with them. Does he do that type of stuff often or was it just that panel or two?

I'm still giggling over the idea that they could totally do that whole thing where Loki pretends to be Thor and kisses Sif so Jane sees (like happened with Lorelei and Sif in the comics).... that would be SO hilarious! She'd be SO pissed! And you know she's been dying for an excuse to kick Loki's ass. And it could give Jane a reason she may decide to go back to Midgard mid movie. Not to mention, having Chris, playing Loki playing Thor.... oh, man that would be good. I hope they do that.

ohhh okay okay I gotcha. Yeah he could. It'd be interesting if they did that. It seems like the other could fit in that role as well. Though mephisto did manipulate him into a chance of losing to mak it a better fight, he still won anyway lol. Mephisto didn't really plant any seeds for thanos' defeat. He beat the heroes, then took on eternity and defeated eternity. His on head allowed him to take eternity's place and physically left his body. They took the IG off his hand. Now, though it worked, because a lot more went on in the comic, I don't know if it would work, having thanos' minion, whoever it may be, manipulate him. Cause it would be a pointless manipulation that doesnt work on screen

 

[elizah72]

ohhh okay okay I gotcha. Yeah he could. It'd be interesting if they did that. It seems like the other could fit in that role as well. Though mephisto did manipulate him into a chance of losing to mak it a better fight, he still won anyway lol. Mephisto didn't really plant any seeds for thanos' defeat. He beat the heroes, then took on eternity and defeated eternity. His on head allowed him to take eternity's place and physically left his body. They took the IG off his hand. Now, though it worked, because a lot more went on in the comic, I don't know if it would work, having thanos' minion, whoever it may be, manipulate him. Cause it would be a pointless manipulation that doesnt work on screen

It would work though, if again, not exactly as it is in comics, but if Loki were actually giving the heroes a chance at defeating Thanos with that same manipulation of his desire to impress Death AND THEN they DID defeat him. That could definitely work for the film/A2 quite well if the IG is used, and it seems likely it will be at some point in the MCU.

So they'd maybe show how much power Thanos has with the IG, and how impossible the odds are, and then Loki manipulates him into only using 1 gem or using less power to impress Death (like a guy saying, "Look, baby! I'm fighting them all off with one arm tied behind my back! Aren't you impressed?"). But instead of what happens in the comics, this does give the heroes the edge they need to defeat him, and in a roundabout way Loki is the hero and yet still Loki being Loki. And what a perfect place for him to do that, but in A2, when he did so much bad in A1 before.

I know that wasn't Mephisto's goal to have the heroes win, but it could be Loki's goal. They can write it however they want. I'm sure Loki would realize it's not good having Thanos around and how dangerous he is, and that he can't defeat him, himself. I feel like The Other comes off as too much of a worshipper of Thanos to ever try to manipulate him, but Loki can certainly play that game and manipulate at the same time.

 

[elizah72]

Now as you know, I love me some Loki but at the same time....

hahahahhahhahahaha!!!

 

[American Maid]

"Now, Thor, we keep telling you, you have to quit being so rough with your brother. Someday when we're gone you two will be the only family each other will have."

 

[jaqua99]

It would work though, if again, not exactly as it is in comics, but if Loki were actually giving the heroes a chance at defeating Thanos with that same manipulation of his desire to impress Death AND THEN they DID defeat him. That could definitely work for the film/A2 quite well if the IG is used, and it seems likely it will be at some point in the MCU.

So they'd maybe show how much power Thanos has with the IG, and how impossible the odds are, and then Loki manipulates him into only using 1 gem or using less power to impress Death (like a guy saying, "Look, baby! I'm fighting them all off with one arm tied behind my back! Aren't you impressed?"). But instead of what happens in the comics, this does give the heroes the edge they need to defeat him, and in a roundabout way Loki is the hero and yet still Loki being Loki. And what a perfect place for him to do that, but in A2, when he did so much bad in A1 before.

I know that wasn't Mephisto's goal to have the heroes win, but it could be Loki's goal. They can write it however they want. I'm sure Loki would realize it's not good having Thanos around and how dangerous he is, and that he can't defeat him, himself. I feel like The Other comes off as too much of a worshipper of Thanos to ever try to manipulate him, but Loki can certainly play that game and manipulate at the same time.

Loki can't manipulate Thanos though. I know it's the comics, but flat out, just like Thor is too powerful to be beaten by ironman, Thanos is too smart to be manipulated into LOSING by loki. that is IF there is a manipulation to begin with. If anything, i bet it will be Adam Warlock. Since I am sure he will turn up in huardians of the galaxy. No one knows Thanos better than warlock, so if anyone is to manipulate him, or try to trick him, I would guess it would be him. I am not so sure that Loki will appear in avengers 2 to be honest. I know you want Loki to be your hero :P but there isn't really anything to suggest that he will be in avengers 2. There is too much going on, and potentially multiple things going on. I think he may may have a cameo, but most likely will not have a role. I do think think he will be weary of Thanos, and something may occur in thor 2, but to be his minion, or working for him, I feel like that is a bit of a stretch, Thanos used him, and he will know if Loki is up to something. He's too smart. Loki was the first avengers villain.. And foremost, he is a thor villain. We don't know for sure, but chances are, he won't be in Avengers 2. He is a multiple film character for the Thor franchise, but not for avengers. He had his go in the avengers, Thanos will probably be the only villain who is around through multiple phases. As Kevin fiege said, elements from phase two will lead to phase 3, which would lead me to think Thanos will be around into phase 3 as well, with an IG movie happening in phase 3. (right now there is A LOT of rumors for avengers 2, while I think Thanos will be in it, I don't think the infinity gauntlet will come full circle yet). For phase 2, thanos is suppose to appear in guardians, and avengers 2. Now me personally, I don't think one movie is enough to establish the power of the IG, and let its impact sit. Especially if the gems come into play.

It also does seem like Thanos' minion role is filled. Also, Thanos is too smart to be manipulated by Loki INTO LOSING..again, I know you are going to say they can change it from the comcs lol. but they can't just pull things out of thin air. As I said, outside of abstracts, thanos is the most intelligent mind and planner in the MU, he will not allow himself to be fully tricked into COMPLETE defeat I wouldn't think. He is too smart for that, for him to trick and use Loki, then let Loki back in to help him, leaving a possibility for Loki to manipulate him, he's too cunning to let that happen. He's smarter than stark, he's smarter than Loki, he's smarter than doom, I personally don't think he will necessarily be manipuated, I think there will be a new way that leads to his defeat. But if there is any manipulation, I would say it would be Adam Warlock since he is much closer, and knows him better. Honestly, it all depends on how guardians of the galaxy goes, and what relationship the titan has with gamora, drax, and adam (if he ends up turning up)

and regarding Loki being the "hero" I think that redemption would be far better suited in a thor movie. It's more personal in a way. To his brother, to his father, to his home, to himself.

 

[elizah72]

The only thing that makes me think Loki might be in A2 is the whole threat by The Other if Loki fails, that seems like that is not going to be forgotten. But then I'm trying to figure out how he might fit in otherwise, because it can't just be that, he needs more to do than that.

I'm actually sort of hoping he's NOT in A2 because he would have to be in it so little out of necessity, and I don't want them wasting one of his contracted films with little more than a cameo. Bring on a full LOKI MOVIE!!!

How/where would they likely introduce Adam Warlock if they use him?

I do think think he will be weary of Thanos, and something may occur in thor 2, but to be his minion, or working for him, I feel like that is a bit of a stretch,

I was talking more pretending to be one for whatever desired result, not actually being one. LOL but yeah...

Now me personally, I don't think one movie is enough to establish the power of the IG, and let its impact sit. Especially if the gems come into play.

so is there another story they may use for Thanos in A2? other than the IG story? or do you think they may use a different villain?

 

[jaqua99]

[

QUOTE=elizah72;24861893]The only thing that makes me think Loki might be in A2 is the whole threat by The Other if Loki fails, that seems like that is not going to be forgotten. But then I'm trying to figure out how he might fit in otherwise, because it can't just be that, he needs more to do than that.

I'm actually sort of hoping he's NOT in A2 because he would have to be in it so little out of necessity, and I don't want them wasting one of his contracted films with little more than a cameo. Bring on a full LOKI MOVIE!!!

Essentially that's what I was thinking. Waste of a contract/role not suited. I feel like the thanos stuff would be covered in thor 2 possibly.

How/where would they likely introduce Adam Warlock if they use him?

Well, we all know out twitter buddy roger wardell lol posting all the supposed leaks regarding phase 2 yada yada. Some are common sense though, but one of them was that Adam Warlock will be in Guardians of the Galaxy, as well as his future persona, the Magus. All that aside though, roger wardell, it seemed that atleast nova would be in guardians, meaning that there will be more than what was in the concept art. Which lead a lot of people to speculate that adam warlock is in it, ESPECIALLY if Thanos is in it. Drax and Gamora have personal ties with thanos, so we could expect warlock to turn up. If and when he does, I am sure it will be in guardians of the galaxy.

I was talking more pretending to be one for whatever desired result, not actually being one. LOL but yeah...

Gotcha, but again, whether Loki actually being one, or pretending, Thanos is too smart to be tricked by that.

so is there another story they may use for Thanos in A2? other than the IG story? or do you think they may use a different villain?

[/QUOTE]
See like, I don't know. That's what was confusing. I personally don't have an idea. But another thing roger said was that the masters of evil will feature in the movie, and i believe he said ultron. this is all confusing, IF IF IF IF that is true. Cause we know Thanos will be involved. Starlin signed off on him to appear. Maybe he has somrthing to do with the mcu masters of evil? Maybe not? If Ultron appears, maybe he is built by pym with the power gem, and thanos needs a reason to get involved? Maybe not. I did hear somewhere that antman was going to be in ironman after credit scene. We KNOW an antman movie isnt coming till after avengers 2, SO, why introduce antman after credits if he wasnt to appear in a movie will phase 3? Possibly because he very well may appear in avengers 2, then gets his own movie right after. What reason could there be to have him in avengers 2? Ultron.

This is all speculation on my part. Joss whedon did say he wanted a smaller, more personal movie. In my opinion, masters of evil, and or, ultron fit that bill perfectly. The tricky part is where Thanos comes into it. Even if Thanos is JUST the villain (which I don't think he will be ,I think somehow, he will be in the backround, he WILL have a role and be a "major character", he'll just be in the backround) but if he is the only villain, I see it as just like, an avengers vs thanos movie, that leaves thanos getting away, or he forges the IG. While the rest of phase 3 happens, thanos is collecting the gems (if the scene in thor 1 wasn't canon) the for phase 3, its everyone vs thanos. That's what think could happen. But again, I think there may be another villain besides thanos in avengers 2.

again, a lot of people are hesitant to believe roger's twitter posts. I am too, but masters of evil is something I have been speculating on a while. Since we have abomination in custody. Look at all these phase 2 movies, and the villains in them. Ironman 3, we have the manderin, idk about radioactive man or not. Thor 2, we have Malekith, Kurse, Captain America, Crossbones (who someone said he will be in avengers 2 (until someone came out and said, no no no thats not true) and whoever is pulling his strings, probably baron zemo, who as we know, is a part of the MoE. Now, introducing antman so early, maybe ultron gets created to fight, but ends up turning on everyone, and goes full Ultron, humanity is flawed, ordeal. Meanwhile thanos is doing his thing, whatever that may be. Avengers save the earth. The last say, 30 minutes of the movie, thanos invades, he fights, takes on all the avengers by himself, beats them down in an epic like, 7vs1 battle. They talk, he leaves. the after credit scene is maybe adam warlock and nova coming to earth, telling the avengers that the universe is in danger, and that they need their help.

that's where my speculation is at right now. Honestly, I think it depends on what happens over the next few movies, but most importantly, more news. Cause some of roger's predictions can come true, or be proven false pretty damn soon, regarding news for ironman and cap, so it depends.

 

[LokiDionysos]

Loki can't manipulate Thanos though. I know it's the comics, but flat out, just like Thor is too powerful to be beaten by ironman, Thanos is too smart to be manipulated into LOSING by loki. that is IF there is a manipulation to begin with. If anything, i bet it will be Adam Warlock. Since I am sure he will turn up in huardians of the galaxy. No one knows Thanos better than warlock, so if anyone is to manipulate him, or try to trick him, I would guess it would be him [...]

and regarding Loki being the "hero" I think that redemption would be far better suited in a thor movie. It's more personal in a way. To his brother, to his father, to his home, to himself.

"

There's one thing about Thanos from the comics that shows Thanos can be a little too sure of himself and careless. At one point he has the cosmic cube and ends up thinking it's "broken" and carelessly discards it...
When he gets rid of the cosmic cube he thinks it's depleted.

I definitely think Warlock will come into this but like you I think Thanos will make multiple appearances and an infinity gauntlet movie will occur in Avengers 3. Making the path to Warlock showing up in the Avengers a little longer. I think there's a master plan now leading through Phase 2 and 3.
Thanos would stick around and Avengers 2 is almost an introduction to the Masters and our formal introduction to Pym before his solo movie.

I sort of agree with both of you, but Loki can't be a major villain at all.
I think he's the one who talks the most and explains what's going on through his words with a lot of the other villains and pops into the story in interesting ways. He's involved in the end game, but not manipulating or serving Thanos.

I also really think Thanos will carry on through phase 3. Loki probably won't be in Avengers 2. Either Hela/Death or Enchantress are there, almost working with Loki by proxy. A proto-masters of evil team is assembled in that movie, gets wrapped up in Thanos's plans to invade, and used in the battle against Thanos.

In Avengers 2 Thanos makes his first attack, but some of the villains and the heroes come together to stop him. Loki isn't one of them...
Phase 2 is about introducing us to some of the people who will become the masters in later movies. Most of them want to rule the world, and are brought together in the big house... Some of them are planning an escape but Thanos does it for them and Ultron dying frees Crossbones in the end from the nano control. Some of the less powerful masters/super-villains meet because they're imprisoned together by that point. In IM3 Mandarin knows about Red Skull, Nazis, Emperors, Dictators, Fascists, Kings, Leaders, Conquerors, Slayers, and ruler-ship. Mandarin declares that all the old emperors and his ancestor genghis Khan were the old masters of evil. Their empire will be guided by them as a true political form of Anarchy ruled by Ultron--an AI that can protect or enslave the world with a Star Wars, planetary defense network type thing establish in IM3. Mandarin takes lessons from many past leaders. But he follows the true anarchist political belief and wants to install it globally with him and Ultron as teachers. The Baron is funding, and Red Skull messes up Mandarin and Leader's plans when he returns.. Mandarin gets the news networks on their side by saying AIM's Ultron network, which will be linked to China and America's airforces and navies, can protect the Earth from anything bigger than New York.... without casualties or destruction because the AI can target anything instantly.
Jarvis and Iron Man build up a defense against this AI, before Pym can come into the mix and explain exactly what this is. He created the first Ultron prototype in the 80's for AIM. This will be explained in depth in his movie.

Needless to say the Ultron planetary defense network doesn't do the best job defending against Thanos. The 2 nano infused masters turn against the heroes, turn against the rest and join Thanos and Ultron...
Red Skull will lead the new masters when he returns. This is about the hardships of forming a team of supervillains who each want to be the one ruling... And things like Thanos that get in the way.
If there's too much death and destruction done by Thanos then there's no one left to rule... Loki and the masters wish to rule, not completely enslave and destroy half of everything. They want to be the secret rulers/mentors/teachers/funders of the anarchistic world Leader and Mandarin envisioned.
The world would be safe because it's protected by Ultron... Nothing like new york will ever happen again they say to the public. But first Shield needs to be eliminated.
Ultron can take out multiple incoming targets and control many things. Stark didn't realize its full potential and that it was more than AI being used by Mandarin when he adopts its ways and uses fourty suits against it. Jarvis plays a big hand in defeating the enemy AI the first time, helping IM control the suits and the others pilot them, Hulkbuster shows up piloted by War Machine against Firepower/Iron Patriot(Taggert has quickly taken Rhodey's place in the airforce). We don't find out that AIM's AI in IM3 is Ultron until the mid credits. Mandarin was using it to control things, but it was also using the Mandarin.

The beginning of Avengers 2 would heavily involve Ant Man and an attempted escape from the big house that Mandarin, Sterns, Zemo, Zola, Crossbones, and Darcy are being held in... the key is that the actress who plays Darcy once said in an interview that "it would be cool for Darcy to become something else..." The thing that briefly possesses Jane is something more dangerous than the Dark Elves, although the Dark elves know of this Dark force. It jumps to Darcy before Jane leaves Earth. Shield will have to monitor Darcy for a while because of her actions and state of mind afterwards. Jane seems fine and Thor sticks up for her in Avengers 2 when he finds out they took Darcy in.

Abomination isn't brought back for the masters because Leader has a plan for Hulk and has changed from what Sterns used to be... This is the interesting thing for the Hulk, something diff from Abomination, he's hyper-intelligent and in his final form--Banner knows him, he knows it's still Sterns somewhere in there.Widow seems to know him to as per the in-between comic where he was imprisoned in a different location and she shot him, something similar happens. He wants them out of Shields custody and came up with the plan along with the Mandarin. Leader wants to lead the masters, but Thanos gets in the way of their escape and world domination. Abomination could be there if there's a big enough battle but sterns is involved with the DNA side of things when Thor and Hulk's genetics come into play. Sterns ends up with the asgardian blood sample Stark has. Sterns, not abomination, is the one who'll make a return for Hulk in future movies.

As you can see i believe those masters of evil rumors are only partially true. Avengers 2 is about how most of the masters meet, instead of how the Avengers join together.
They meet in a supervillain prison that only focuses all their efforts and puts the ones who don't know each other in one place (Crossbones knows Zemo). We've herd Feige talk about civil war elements... Cap disagrees with using some of the villains as soldiers, and it does backfire, but some of the villains willingly work with them against Thanos because of the stakes. So only elements of civil war with a little bit more on the leadership issues between Cap and Ironman. The villains have worse problems with their team. In Iron Man 3 there's a nano-technology coming into play that can control the first version of the masters team when things with Thanos get completely out of control and they have to resort to the worst. Some of them break free and willingly join in the fight against Thanos after the first half of the movie. After the nano infused villains are released from the network, Crossbones proves that it can work both ways. Prison and being part of Stark's army rehabilitated him. The proto masters team and his journey through the movies as a talented mercenary changes him when he sees Thanos. A former villain can willingly become one of the heroes and sacrifice himself for the good of others without being controlled.

The first half of the movie is the Masters disassembling and falling apart as a team, because this version of the masters CAN'T WORK TOGETHER. Leader wants to be the supreme leader of it all... Hulk has business with Sterns. Before Thanos arrives some are quickly rounded up again and need to work with the heroes to stop Thanos the first time. Avengers 2 functions as an introduction to the first masters team.
Red Skull will return and lead the remaining members, plus others, in a future movie. Most likely Captain America 3, with an unexpected attack on Cap and Shield. Avengers 3 would be infinity gautlet.
Together the heroes and captured villains manage to stop Thanos temporarily. Only Janet and Hank are added to the team... Feige has said only two new members.. They'll be set up prior to this and afterwards. We come to know a little about them during phase 2 and the Ant Man movie functions almost as a prequel to what just happened in Avengers when released afterwards. Giving more info on Pym, Lang, and Jan, and how they play into everything.

Thanos doesn't have the gauntlet the first time in avengers 2 and the cosmic cube will stick around for a while. Sometimes you have to fight evil with another form of evil, and the masters of evil claim that reactivating AIM's AI, Ultron, will protect the world from Thanos and keep the lesser villains in check. Mandarin doesn't know it yet but his whole plan, and half of AIM, is funded by a wealthy Baron.

I think Loki can have redemption, but it won't be for a very long time.
The perfect way for his redemption is to have him ultimately join the heroes, Warlock and Thor against Thanos in Phase 3 during the infinity Gautlet movie. Miss marvel is introduced in this movie, some of the guardians help, and Loki dies before even being able to double-cross anyone. But he dies helping in the final fight against Thanos--leaving it somewhat ambiguous whether Loki did sacrifice himself and get trapped in Hel (she won't let him out this time) or if he was doing it to try to get the gauntlet, because he'll want the gauntlet but not be able to get it.

Either way he realizes he has to stop Thanos, Thanos wants death and destruction. Loki wishes to rule, like the first masters and second masters team that he joins in Captain America 3 for a rematch with Cap and Shield.
All the masters have an urge to rule, enchant or deceive and create an Empire over humanity that they can lead. The Baron mainly funds it like Stark/Fury in modern times. AIM is Hydra. Mandarin has been deceived into working for the masters.... he wasn't controlling them, there was a back and forth.

In the final battle of Avengers 3 Loki's almost all that's left of the evil powerful beings at that point. The masters of evil are able to master evil and understand it. Able to help in the battle against Thanos--the ultimate evil. They wanted to rule the Earth, but there will be nothing left to rule. They even want to use the political angle against IM and the Avengers through the Senator, involving the president in their plans to take over the world. Mandarin needs the news watching at this stage in the game. So he has the news network cover the attack on Stark's Mansion, they're part of the attack..

Warlock needs to be there in the third one, introduced in GoTG along with Magus. Magus has been created out of a time paradox as per the comics, and Warlock is more like a legend that's been sealed away by Magus now... Part of it becomes about using the soul gem to bring Warlock back. He's somewhere else in between times and dimensions within something.

Two former masters + Loki help the Avengers (now with Black Panther), Miss Marvel, and the Guardians against Thanos in the Infinity Gauntlet movie. The other, and Wakanda help in the battle to defend Earth before Thanos threatens the universe.

 

[jaqua99]

"

There's one thing about Thanos from the comics that shows Thanos can be a little too sure of himself and careless. At one point he has the cosmic cube and ends up thinking it's "broken" and carelessly discards it...
When he gets rid of the cosmic cube he thinks it's depleted.

I definitely think Warlock will come into this but like you I think Thanos will make multiple appearances and an infinity gauntlet movie will occur in Avengers 3. Making the path to Warlock showing up in the Avengers a little longer. I think there's a master plan now leading through Phase 2 and 3.
Thanos would stick around and Avengers 2 is almost an introduction to the Masters and our formal introduction to Pym before his solo movie.

I sort of agree with both of you, but Loki can't be a major villain at all.
I think he's the one who talks the most and explains what's going on through his words with a lot of the other villains and pops into the story in interesting ways. He's involved in the end game, but not manipulating or serving Thanos.

I also really think Thanos will carry on through phase 3. Loki probably won't be in Avengers 2. Either Hela/Death or Enchantress are there, almost working with Loki by proxy. A proto-masters of evil team is assembled in that movie, gets wrapped up in Thanos's plans to invade, and used in the battle against Thanos.

In Avengers 2 Thanos makes his first attack, but some of the villains and the heroes come together to stop him. Loki isn't one of them...
Phase 2 is about introducing us to some of the people who will become the masters in later movies. Most of them want to rule the world, and are brought together in the big house... The beginning of Avengers 2 would heavily involve Ant Man and an attempted escape from the big house that Mandarin, Sterns, Zemo, Zola, Crossbones, and Darcy are being held in... the key is that the actress who plays Darcy once said in an interview that "it would be cool for Darcy to become something else..." The thing that briefly possesses Jane is something more dangerous than the Dark Elves, although the Dark elves know of this Dark force. It jumps to Darcy before Jane leaves Earth. Shield will have to monitor Darcy for a while because of her actions and state of mind afterwards. Jane seems fine and Thor sticks up for her in Avengers 2 when he finds out they took Darcy in.

Abomination isn't brought back for the masters because Leader has a plan for Hulk and has changed from what Sterns used to be... he's hyper-intelligent. Leader wants to lead the masters, but Thanos gets in the way of their escape and world domination. Abomination could be there if there's a big enough battle but sterns is involved with the DNA side of things when Thor and Hulk's genetics come into play. Sterns ends up with the asgardian blood sample Stark has. Sterns, not abomination, is the one who'll make a return for Hulk in future movies.

As you can see i believe those masters of evil rumors are only partially true. Avengers 2 is about how most of the masters meet, instead of how the Avengers join together.
They meet in a supervillain prison that only focuses all their efforts and puts the ones who don't know each other in one place (Crossbones knows Zemo). We've herd Feige talk about civil war elements... In Iron Man 3 there's a nano-technology coming into play that can control the first version of the masters team when things with Thanos get completely out of control and they have to resort to the worst. Some of them break free and willingly join in the fight against Thanos after the first half of the movie.

The first half of the movie is the Masters disassembling and falling apart as a team, because this version of the master CAN'T WORK TOGETHER. Leader wants to be the supreme leader of it all... Hulk has business with Sterns. Before Thanos arrives some are quickly rounded up again and need to work with the heroes to stop Thanos the first time. Avengers 2 functions as an introduction to the first masters team.
Red Skull will return and lead the remaining members, plus others, in a future movie. Most likely Captain America 3, with an unexpected attack on Cap and Shield. Avengers 3 would be infinity gautlet.
Together the heroes and captured villains manage to stop Thanos temporarily. Only Janet and Hank are added to the team... Feige has said only two new members.. They'll be set up prior to this and afterwards. We come to know a little about them during phase 2 and the Ant Man movie functions almost as a prequel to what just happened in Avengers when released afterwards. Giving more info on Pym, Lang, and Jan, and how they play into everything.

Thanos doesn't have the gauntlet the first time in avengers 2 and the cosmic cube will stick around for a while. Sometimes you have to fight evil with another form of evil, and the masters of evil claim that reactivating AIM's AI, Ultron, will protect the world from Thanos and keep the lesser villains in check. Mandarin doesn't know it yet but his whole plan, and half of AIM, is funded by a wealthy Baron.

I think Loki can have redemption, but it won't be for a very long time.
The perfect way for his redemption is to have him ultimately join the heroes, Warlock and Thor against Thanos in Phase 3 during the infinity Gautlet movie. Miss marvel is introduced in this movie, some of the guardians help, and Loki dies before even being able to double-cross anyone. But he dies helping in the final fight against Thanos--leaving it somewhat ambiguous whether Loki did sacrifice himself and get trapped in Hel (she won't let him out this time) or if he was doing it to try to get the gauntlet, because he'll want the gauntlet but not be able to get it.

Either way he realizes he has to stop Thanos, Thanos wants death and destruction. Loki wishes to rule, like the first masters and second masters team that he joins in Captain America 3 for a rematch with Cap and Shield.
All the masters have an urge to rule, enchant or deceive and create an Empire over humanity that they can lead. The Baron mainly funds it like Stark/Fury in modern times. AIM is Hydra. Mandarin has been deceived into working for the masters.... he wasn't controlling them, there was a back and forth.

In the final battle Loki's almost all that's left of the other somewhat powerful beings at that point, the masters of evil--able to master evil and understand it. Able to help in the battle against Thanos, the ultimate evil.
Two former masters and Loki help the Avengers (now with Black Panther), Miss Marvel, and the Guardians against Thanos/the gauntlet, The other, and Immortus. Wakanda helps in the battle to defend Earth before the Thanos threatens the universe.

generally yeah. Thanos was wreckless in his youth. But i wouldn't say to the point where he can get manipulated. well not his youth, in my youth, in like the 90s. But he's gained intelligence, at one point, he gave up on death I beleive. and after the whole infinity gauntlet and ESPECIALLY after he had the heart of the universe, he changed. matured. When he had the heart, that was it. He won. That was so, awesome i guess. he won. There was nothing anyone could do, eternity, even the living tribunal. He won, he destroyed the marvel universe and there was nothing that could be done. Fortunately he realized the empty void, and through the talking of warlock, he restored everything. After that, he wasn't really the same Thanos anymore. He matured a lot. And in a way, sort of turned into an antihero, opposed to just a villain. getting passed the IG saga, he's such an awesome villain, such an awesome character. He is a character who could have is own spinoff movie and have it work. I would LOVE that.

I agree with this. though i had to stop reading it, got a little to long, and too many things that are a little bit out their in my eyes, meaning I don't have the time to make all the connections. god damn all of you, i am trying to study but I keep allowing myself to get distracted by your posts!! lol ugh biology

but with this being said, i think you have got a very creative mind

 

[elizah72]

god damn all of you, i am trying to study but I keep allowing myself to get distracted by your posts!! lol ugh biology

 

[jaqua99]

yes

 

[American Maid]

Well, and as I post for myself, I should be writing:
<Edit: still can't post photos. Oh well, I'm sure you all know the one I mean.>
Second Edit: Elizah helped me out! I still should be writing.

 

[elizah72]

This interview is about Captain America, however it is with 2 of our writers for Thor 2, so thought I'd share. I am encouraged by their enthusiasm and willingness to immerse themselves in the world to get their story written.

http://collider.com/captain-america...hen-mcfeely-interview-captain-america/102916/

some interesting talk about the cosmic cube

I'm a little confused by the way regarding the Thor 2 writers, back in January there was a report that Don Payne wrote the screenplay (and I think Payne rewrote/touched up the Thor 1 screenplay too) and Robert Rodat was rewriting (something to do with Alan Taylor I think to), so when did Christopher Markus, Stephen McFeely and Christopher Yost come into it? I know Yost is on twitter and has been in London the entire time of filming (even went to Iceland apparently) so he is apparently on hand for rewrites, not sure who else is out there for the filming of those writers.

 

[elizah72]

Don Payne (Thor/Thor 2 writer) old interviews...

http://www.craveonline.com/film/interviews/167601-thor-screenwriter-don-payne

a few of the more interesting quotes about the future of Thor movies... 5/8/2011

CraveOnline: In your mind, could a Thor movie exist without taking place on Earth?
Don Payne: I think it could. Certainly there are six other realms that we haven’t scene. You could do a whole big cosmic Lord of the Rings style adventure elsewhere, but I think part of it should take place on Earth because I think that you want a touchstone of what’s familiar. You want a touchstone of human characters and the fun of being on Earth. I think you could do that story but I think Thor has always been a character that is of two worlds, of Asgard and of Midgard which is Earth. That’s who he is in the comics and that’s who he is in the cinematic universe that Marvel has created.

CraveOnline: What else are you working on writing?
Don Payne: I am in the early stages of coming up with some ideas for Thor 2 actually. I’m hoping to explore some of the characters in some of the old stories that we weren’t able to use in the first film.

http://www.chud.com/39039/exclusive-screenwriter-don-payne-talks-thor/ (Feb. 2011)

Are there any Thor comic runs in particular that influenced your take on the character, and the movie’s story? Are there any you would recommend to fans to prepare them for the movie?
I love the original Stan Lee/Jack Kirby/Larry Leiber stuff. I just bought the new Thor Omnibus Volume 1. It’s great, because it’s got Journey Into Mystery #83-120, all in color, all in one hardcover volume. It’s been fun revisiting those old stories.
Of course, Walt Simonson’s run is amazing, with the Surtur saga, Beta Ray Bill, and everything he did with Balder. I also really enjoyed Matt Fraction’s Ages of Thunder, Reign of Blood, and Man of War.

 

[jaqua99]

Don Payne (Thor/Thor 2 writer) old interviews...

http://www.craveonline.com/film/interviews/167601-thor-screenwriter-don-payne

a few of the more interesting quotes about the future of Thor movies... 5/8/2011



http://www.chud.com/39039/exclusive-screenwriter-don-payne-talks-thor/ (Feb. 2011)

those were great. Though I can't stand balder :P

 

[American Maid]

Thanks for sharing those interviews. They were very interesting.

 

[elizah72]

Just beginning to listen to this but already recommending.

http://www.theqandapodcast.com/2011/05/thor-q.html

OMG. what one of them says about Thor berating Odin about the Frost Giants... Hilarious!

"Dad, you're weak. You should have whacked the Frost Giants when you had the chance. You didn't have the balls. You're old... "

ROFLMAO If only Thor had actually said that!!!

some stuff that Marvel had requested the writers (Miller and Stentz) get into Thor 1 but was too much and didn't make it in.

Whole digression of going to Nornheim, "Princess" Karnilla, The beast of Nornheim, Balder, Enchantress... (along with A LOT of other stuff they don't specify)

Don Payne mentions Balder being in there for a while but he felt he wound up just being the "4th warrior" (assuming he means of the Warriors 3)/too many characters and not being really done justice/"under serviced", so he was taken out, but he hoped he may be able to use him one day. Interestingly we have Tyr appearing in Thor 2 and no word about Balder at all.

Mentioning this because those things, or some of them, may very well be requested by Feige/Marvel again... or it could have been dropped completely due to the way the first movie shaped up, and the way their ideas evolved for the future of the films.

Payne: Thor Jane Sif was in early drafts, but not enough time to explore, and may be explored in future films

Btw, Don Payne is the guy who brings the drink to Thor in the deleted pre coronation scene between Thor and Loki.

 

[American Maid]

Just beginning to listen to this but already recommending.

http://www.theqandapodcast.com/2011/05/thor-q.html

OMG. what one of them says about Thor berating Odin about the Frost Giants... Hilarious!

some stuff that Marvel had requested the writers (Miller and Stentz) get into Thor 1 but was too much and didn't make it in.

Nornheim, "Princess" Karnilla, The beast of Nornheim, Balder, Enchantress...

Don Payne mentions Balder being in there for a while but he felt he wound up just being the "4th warrior" (assuming he means of the Warriors 3)/too many characters and not being really done justice/"under serviced", so he was taken out, but he hoped he may be able to use him one day. Interestingly we have Tyr appearing in Thor 2 and no word about Balder at all.

Mentioning this because those things, or some of them, may very well be requested by Feige/Marvel again... or it could have been dropped completely due to the way the first movie shaped up, and the way their ideas evolved for the future of the films.

Yeah, I had noticed they mentioned the digression where they go to Nornheim.

One of the other interviews you've posted mentioned returning to ideas they hadn't been able to use before.

The other important point they make, at least of the part that I've listened to, is that a studio may have a lot of ideas, but the writer's job is to bring out a story they want to tell, and not just connect the studio's dots (which they call being a typist).

 

[elizah72]

Yeah, I had noticed they mentioned the digression where they go to Nornheim.

One of the other interviews you've posted mentioned returning to ideas they hadn't been able to use before.

The other important point they make, at least of the part that I've listened to, is that a studio may have a lot of ideas, but the writer's job is to bring out a story they want to tell, and not just connect the studio's dots (which they call being a typist).

Yeah, I was impressed with what they said there, unforutanely they're not writing Thor 2. LOL but hopefully those who are have that attitude. We don't want to have just a cameo-a-thon, with a barely sensible story, with stuff throw in there just because. It needs to work and make sense with the story.

One thing they can do is take elements of things on their list of things they want to show, and if that character doesn't fit so much with the story, then some of the elements of that character or that story may work within the MCU story somewhere else. I realize some comics purist might not like that, but again, it's got to fit into a 2 hour movie storyline, and it's not a good idea to just start cramming cameos in, just because that was that characters "job" in the comics. It's got to fit and it's got to make sense. I feel confident Feige and Marvel would realize that and not push the writers too much to put in things that just aren't working.

I know one concern that people seemed to have about Balder is he was too similar to Thor, so certainly that's another problem with adding him, especially if he's in Thor's group. Going back to my idea about Freyr, and the Vanir, one thought I had was to have him a bit like that Balder character, but at least in Thor 2 working against the Asgardians. And that would create a really interesting antagonist to Thor for the story. Alternately, assigning some of the aspects of a character they want that doesn't fit, or certain plot points they want fit into the movies, to other characters like Thor, or Fandral, Tyr, or even Loki works. Again I'm sure the purists may not like it but that may be something they'd just have to do. Same with using Nornheim vs using the Vanir, if one fits better into the story, than the other.

Incidentally them having a whole big digression of a conflict on Nornheim all planned/wanted for Thor 1, including Karnilla and Balder, indicates that it is very possible they'll have some version of that appear in a later film (or again Vanaheim instead of Nornheim, or maybe even both at once )

 

[elizah72]

Took this out of the Hiddleston thread as I was afraid it could get spoilerly and didn't want to use tags there...

Of course that's where Loki messed up. Odin goes to war cause he had to, to save mankind. Thor, just wanted an excuse to bash some frost giant skulls in :P

and I actually love the idea of loki in prophecy being the one to trigger ragnarok. Perhaps it will be Loki that forms an allience with surtur, opposed to malekith. Then loki realizes what he's done, and helps stop him. (this not being thor 2, just..some future of the thor franchise)

I think it's possible that could be a prophecy that only Odin knows about yes, even in MCU, and maybe that's the real reason he took him. He knew he might cause Ragnarok but he couldn't kill an innocent child, and so took him to try to change that destiny. That would be one hell of one more bomb to drop on Loki though, in addition to what's already been dropped on him. Especially if he does manage to make some kind of peace with his family in Thor 2.

As you might guess I'm not crazy about him teaming with Surtur to cause Ragnarok in MCU, but possible, if the go in that direction. I could see him find some peace with his family in Thor 2, then maybe in Thor 3 find out about the prophecy, and go off the deep end again for a bit maybe because of it, screw up and begin to feel torment about whether he can fight destiny or if it is what it is, and he is what he is. So that could be interesting and certainly lots of "meat" for Tom to sink his teeth into, along with some for Chris too as Thor tries to bring him brother back yet again, along with stopping Ragnarok. So could work.

 

[American Maid]

Yeah, I was impressed with what they said there [about not being typists], unforutanely they're not writing Thor 2.

But I think it speaks to something most writers would want to do.

Going back to my idea about Freyr, and the Vanir, one thought I had was to have him a bit like that Balder character, but at least in Thor 2 working against the Asgardians.

I have the impression that Tyr is written that way in the books, though, at least from time to time.

 

[elizah72]

But I think it speaks to something most writers would want to do.

I have the impression that Tyr is written that way in the books, though, at least from time to time.

I think in the books he's more a great warrior and a hot head and is insecure and jealous when Thor shows him up periodically. And that even causes him to work against Asgard in not so good ways. So that's really not like the gooder than good Balder character. Tyr also has a thing for Sif in the comics apparently and is very jealous of Thor's relationship with her. Considering the age of the actor would be interesting if they did anything with that. LOL