Portland test screening indicates altered ending???

[The Guard]

Exactly.

So far, the best argument against this change are "It's not as gory" and "It's not a squid". There's also the bit about the fact that we don't see the "supporting cast" and how their lives end together in New York, on one street corner (which I'm pretty sure we will see elements of). But it's so damn thematically relevant and ties into the themes and ideas and even the era of the novel so well that to me, it's pretty much going to work fine if it's executed well.

 

[S.D. Plissken]

I disagree. That will only happen if Zack Snyder and the script writers decide to make it so. And they won't, because it wouldn't serve the story. By the same logic, Russia only offered aid to the US in the GN because Alan Moore decided that he wanted them to, and because it developed the message of the book. Veidt's plan is an outlandish plot device either way you slice it; its value comes from thematic content, not realism or lack thereof. The GN's ending is no more realistic than the movie's.

With the squid, for example, Russia could have just as plausibly used the incident as an excuse to attack or quarantine the US ("look what horrors the Americans have unleashed on Earth!"), but they didn't. It plays out the way it plays out because it needs to to serve the story.

Not saying I like the change necessarily, mind you. I think it has its pros and cons. But I don't think that that particular argument against it (the "the squid would work better" argument) is a sound one.

How do you disagree with FACT? Russia did give aid because the threat was not of earthly orgin! It was a threat that affected everyone because it was from another world.

Seriously, don't be stupid. If you disagree with me, at least read everything I've said and give a valuable argument to it because this "not a sound argument because I said so" is just BS.

Manhattan is owned by the American Government. If Something created by the Americans attacks other countries, they would logically be held responsible and face hostility from the rest of the world. True?

If something created by no one attacked the world and it looked like an attack from an aliens (be it a squid, a giant, or ****ing king kong), no one would be held responsible and the idea of the world powers joining together to defy the threat is much more plausible. It actually makes sense both in terms of logic and as a story choice. This is a non-human threat to humankind that is unaffiliated with any nation.

This Manhattan frameup is bull **** and makes me feel like someone is pissing in my shoe. I hope the reports are right about the multiple endings because to me this is a disqualifier.

 

[The Squirrel]

How do you disagree with FACT? Russia did give aid because the threat was not of earthly orgin! It was a threat that affected everyone because it was from another world.

Seriously, don't be stupid.

Take your own advice... Russia gave aid in the GN cause Alan Moore said they did.

 

[S.D. Plissken]

Take your own advice... Russia gave aid in the GN cause Alan Moore said they did.

Hahah. Oh man, taken out of context and everything.

Oh, ok then. So either way Veidts plan is ******ed, and it doesn't matter which ******ed plan he uses because either way the writers dictate the stalemate which follows said ******ed attack/plan?

Does anyone want to actually respond to the real argument (the logical component to the attack)? You guys are ****ing funny as hell.

 

[Solidus]

How do you disagree with FACT? Russia did give aid because the threat was not of earthly orgin! It was a threat that affected everyone because it was from another world.

Seriously, don't be stupid. If you disagree with me, at least read everything I've said and give a valuable argument to it because this "not a sound argument because I said so" is just BS.

Manhattan is owned by the American Government. If Something created by the Americans attacks other countries, they would logically be held responsible and face hostility from the rest of the world. True?

If something created by no one attacked the world and it looked like an attack from an aliens (be it a squid, a giant, or ****ing king kong), no one would be held responsible and the idea of the world powers joining together to defy the threat is much more plausible. It actually makes sense both in terms of logic and as a story choice. This is a non-human threat to humankind that is unaffiliated with any nation.

This Manhattan frameup is bull **** and makes me feel like someone is pissing in my shoe. I hope the reports are right about the multiple endings because to me this is a disqualifier.

Yea but Manhattan destroys New York an American City. Not Russian. To me, that still could invoke fear. Now the weapon America once had, is now rouge. That could be scary to everyone. Especially the amount of destruction unleashed.

That would be like saying Powell goes rouge, and destroys New York with a nuke. Of course he never would, but lets say as an example. Some one who once worked with America, now destroying it. At first it would seem that yes, Russia would be like "yes". But some one with so much power like Manhattan, that means now he wants to rule the world. Because Manhattan could easily do so, he is like God. And Russia would be afraid as much as America, that he will destroy the entire world. I think it meets the same end.

 

[S.D. Plissken]

Yea but Manhattan destroys New York an American City. Not Russian. To me, that still could invoke fear. Now the weapon America once had, is now rouge. That could be scary to everyone. Especially the amount of destruction unleashed.

That would be like saying Powell goes rouge, and destroys New York with a nuke. Of course he never would, but lets say as an example. Some one who once worked with America, now destroying it. At first it would seem that yes, Russia would be like "yes". But some one with so much power like Manhattan, that means now he wants to rule the world. Because Manhattan could easily do so, he is like God. And Russia would be afraid as much as America, that he will destroy the entire world. I think it meets the same end.

Alright Solidous!

Your response is solid as hell, but you're missing one thing about Manhattan: He is not a man. He is a weapon.

As Milton Glass puts it, he is "A Man to End Worlds". He was made by Americans and touted by Americans as the superman to their Russian enemies. Giving the Reds the impression that he was created by the American Government.

When a man goes rogue, he's just a man with no affiliation. He's a nutcase despite his national connections and tying him to a country is a stretch at best.

When a man made superhuman goes rogue and has had strong ties to the American government, the soviets (and the rest of the world) have a nation to blame. Especially when the US has so arrogantly touted Manhattan as thier allied schoolyard bully to defend them from the rest of the world.

Given these facts why wouldn't Russia and the rest of the world lay waste to the US?

 

[Solidus]

Alright Solidous!

Your response is solid as hell, but you're missing one thing about Manhattan: He is not a man. He is a weapon.

As Milton Glass puts it, he is "A Man to End Worlds". He was made by Americans and touted by Americans as the superman to their Russian enemies. Giving the Reds the impression that he was created by the American Government.

When a man goes rogue, he's just a man with no affiliation. He's a nutcase despite his national connections and tying him to a country is a stretch at best.

When a man made superhuman goes rogue and has had strong ties to the American government, the soviets (and the rest of the world) have a nation to blame. Especially when the US has so arrogantly touted Manhattan as thier allied schoolyard bully to defend them from the rest of the world.

Given these facts why wouldn't Russia and the rest of the world lay waste to the US?

I guess you and I have different opinions on what Manhattan is. Thats fine to by the way. Manhattan was touted as a weapon, but I think everyone knew he was once human, so therefore he still has choice. Which he does. To me I always saw Manhattan as a God Like figure. And even though yes he was under American control, he is indestructible.

I see it a few ways. If Manhattan goes rouge, America knows they are screwed big time. They will need the help of others to stop him. So what if America laid out the secrets to the Russians, that he does have his own will, and he disappeared to Mars, and he is apparently not in American's control at all, nor anyone else . I see it as if both countries saw that a God like figure, that is indestructible, and can create material out of thin air, crap, I think everyone would ban together to stop Manhattan.

Also we do not know the extent of what happens in the movie. We will have to see how it turns out. It could have a faux Manhattan comes out and says he wants to rule the world with is unlimited power.

To me in the comics Manhattan is scarry as hell, his powers, is just beyond anything we could ever know. More powerful then any other super hero made. He is just beyond. And to see him go rouge, would be the scarriest thing. Because unlike aliens, we know what Manhattan can do. And America will let the world know what they are against now that it has turned on them.

I guess thats how I see it.

 

[Evil Twin]

Why are we trusting the word of an anonymous person who writes like a 4th grader, can't remember names, offers no analysis, and might not have even seen the movie and is simply feeding the net BS for fun? For all we know, even if the squid isn't in, it's simply a series of explosions from Centers of Extraspatial Studies and there is no link to Dr. Manhattan, but spoilerman can't get simple details straight. Why should we trust anyone that writes like that to relay details accurately?

Seriously, there's nothing in the screener report that can't be inferred from the trailer and the drafts that are floating about. No talk about acting, dialogue, editing, theme, how much the slo mo/fast mo effect Snyder is using, just some vague plot points that we can't confirm are even accurately being relayed.

Edit: Also, just assuming that the poster accurately relayed the ending (which I think is a dangerous thing to do). Is there any confirmation that one of the cities attacked was behind the Iron Curtain? Why would it escalate to WWIII if Dr. Manhattan attacked America and a bunch of America's allies?

 

[CrimsonMist]

Reading these past 2 pages, i kind of just picked out what i thought was worth commenting on. So it's on big post in response to several people. It's much easier than doing multiple posts. So here goes:

THE GUARD SAID

Someone want to explain to me how making the attack bigger lessens the impact? The attack was never a small, personal one, we just happened to see a small, personal part of it involving characters we'd met throughout the graphic novel. And we're still going to see that (albeit not all of it). I was never terribly "invested" in any of the "supporting cast" of WATCHMEN (though I understand and respect their inclusion). I just recognized the tragedy for what it was. A tragedy involving real people, that showed how utterly pointless all their differences were. I don't think excising some of that material is Snyder and company thinking they're better than Moore and Gibbons. It's obviously more of a screentime issue.

It's not so much about being "invested" with the supporting cast throughout the story. I think we need some of the subtle things, like Malcom Long and his wife's marriage problems, and the basic relationships between everyone else without going in-depth. It's all about the ending of the film, with Long's lines "I mean, it's all we can do. Try to help each other. It's all that means anything." It's a deep piece. I think it's relevant and reflects the overall concept of the story, and i think deserves to be in the movie. It could very well add the extra emotional attachment to the tragedy. We don't need to know every detail about these supporting characters, but that line gives us all we need to feel the tragedy even more, ya know? But it is an issue of screentime, which i agree with. I just think enough screentime has to be given to these characters so we become familiar enough for the ending to have more impact.

S.D. PLISSKEN SAID

strongly disagree. "Who watches the watchmen" was never about a fear of the unknown. It was a statement directed at the vigilante crimefighters that were taking the place of government law enforcement and that angered the common man of this alternate universe. It could easily be summed up as "who are you to stand as the law? who gave you the right?" It's not a fear of the unknown, it's a fear of facism.

Kinda disagree here, though it's probably more a matter of interpretation. I always felt "Who Watches The Watchmen" was always about the ending of the film; the moral dilemma. These are heroes who save us. Who saves them from decisions that are too big for even they to make? Who saves them from situations that heroes are never put in? Who saves them from the situations that you'd never believe to be too hard for them to fix?

Maybe "Who Watches The Watchmen" is a sum of many different things. A Fear of fascism, a fear of being helpless, a fear of being a giant in a world that doesn't care.

In other words: There is someone for the world to blame at the end of all of this : The American Government. Why? Because Manhattan served as their operative. He is tied to them and is their responsibility. The other countries, in reality, would see this as an American ****up and attack the US. This is why the Manhattan frameup fails to acheive the same effect that the alien attack does in the book. The squid is arbitrary, and to the american public and the rest of the world it's actually from another planet and therefore it's a more frightening threat. It's attack would actually produce a worldwide stalemate

Manhattan is owned by the American Government. If Something created by the Americans attacks other countries, they would logically be held responsible and face hostility from the rest of the world. True?

Not quite. My feelings regarding this are similar to Solidus'. Sure, Manhattan served as their operative, but i don't think for one second that the Government wasn't scared ****less by his existence. I think the whole world was.

You said "He is not a man. He is a weapon"

and i disagree with this. He's not a weapon. He never was. The government used him as one, but he never was. He's a God. He has more power than anything on Earth. He's owned by nobody. He might be branded Government property, but they know as well as other governments(atleast they should) that his power is far beyond control. It's like Robocop. He might be branded OCP property and labled as just a mindless robot, but he isn't. He's more than that and more powerful than OCP wanted to credit him with(or were too ignorant to acknowledge).

and when "Manhattan" blows up several cities, it gives Russia, Japan and the USA(along with the other countries destroyed) the idea that Manhattan, the most powerful being on Earth, has gone rogue. He's broken free of his American masters. I think the world would see that this is now a HUGE issue. The most powerful man in the world has seemingly regained his own mind and thought process and has become a single force. What do they do? Panic and get along. God has gone rogue and now he's pissed. It works.

Reviews from people who were at the screening confirm this:

1: "Manhattan realizes that this is best for the world and so when Rorschach storms out... "

2: "He did it in a way that it would look like Dr. Manhattan was responsible and so Russia and the USA could come together as friends and go after Dr. Manhattan. Thus creating peace around the world."

I don't know about you, but seeing my loved ones bloodied and smoking in the streets accompanied by a huge ****ing alien squid crushed into a nearby building would be much more horrific than empty streets and cute little shadows. This is probably about getting an R rating from the dickless MPAA, I doubt it's an artistic choice.

You have a point, but think about it for a second. It's creepy as hell. Shadows burned onto walls of people in their last moments on earth. It's not horrific, but it's pretty brutal to look at regardless. I mean, really. THINK ABOUT IT. You know how intense that must be to see?

HURM...SAID

After reading the Page thing, I think there keeping the squid. I'm happy either way, as long as the story flows and makes sense. It's just a safer route to go with a squid.

For all we know, Snyder might have pulled a Singer and shown people a screening with the altered ending so then they would be surprised by the changed ending when it hits theaters.

This is what Bryan Singer did for X2 in terms of Jean Grey.

God i hope so. I would LOVE for this to be true. I really would. Of course, this would also require more footage of things cut from the movie, to make THAT ending work. We have 5 months to go. Let's hope this news of testing multiple endings is true.

 

[Hurm...]

"As for The Watchmen, I am not able to discuss what I had done in terms of the creature ... The production designed [Alex McDowell] is amazing, so the production should be fantastic ... I am working as a concept designer but the focus as of late has been creature."

This quote by Neville Page still makes me think they're keeping the original ending. Would they really hire this guy if they weren't going to even use the original ending at all? This isn't some clown, this is a specialist in these monster designs.

There pulling a SINGER, I'm telling ya!

 

[S.D. Plissken]

It's like Robocop. He might be branded OCP property and labled as just a mindless robot, but he isn't. He's more than that and more powerful than OCP wanted to credit him with(or were too ignorant to acknowledge).

Yeah but he was OCP's ***** when they activated directive 4 and you KNOW Dick Jones waz tha man!



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[Mercurius]

This Manhattan frameup is bull **** and makes me feel like someone is pissing in my shoe. I hope the reports are right about the multiple endings because to me this is a disqualifier.

Exactly, Plissken.

I feel the same way, and hope the same way. This would be the major and final desqualifier.

 

[Solidus]

Exactly, Plissken.

I feel the same way, and hope the same way. This would be the major and final desqualifier.

Oh please. . You were going to hate this movie no matter what.

 

[Solidus]

Yeah but he was OCP's ***** when they activated directive 4 and you KNOW Dick Jones waz tha man!

And what I will say to you again, because I just saw your poll. Just wait until more info gets out, and we see the movie itself. Or reviews to how it worked.

I said it again, this is just like, hate using this example, but its a good one, the Scouring of the Shire, in LOTR. A huge part of the book, that was completely altered at the end of ROTK. Where Sauraman was let go by the Ents, he took a rag tag army, and burned the Shire to the ground, and enslaved all the hobbits. Frodo and them come back, then the same events unfold, and Sam plants the white tree seed in the Shire. And they have rebuilding to do. Now of course for your case you will say that is not a big deal. It sure was to the fans when it came out, including me. I felt that it was as you put it "Hollywood" taking over.

But actually it worked out better the way PJ did it. When we did watch the movie we relized it actually was a better way to end it then the book did.

So, just because something is one way in a book, does not mean there is room for improvement. But yes, Watchmen is one of the greatest pieces of work, right up there with LOTR, but guess what even the greatest things have room for improvement.

Now for all we know how it works into the story, it may actually be way better then a squid. And have more depth then we can actually understand. Or it could be a worse choice, when we see the movie, or learn more info, if it does suck, then I will be here right with you saying that was a terrible decision. I did the same with Spidey 3 lol.

But I say, from what little info we have, it could easily work. And be just as powerful, and maybe make a little more sense. Don't have enough info right now, but from what we do have I could see it easily working like the changing of the Scouring of the Shire.

But I say we should wait a little bit longer because apparently comic book dork, Kevin Smith was not upset by the change, when he did say there was a major change.

But I just think some are jumping the gun quick. Just like all the people that thought the Joker was being too serious before the film came out. Then when they saw it, they kept quiet. Sometimes when you watch the movie as a whole, it may make more sense.

After thinking about what we talked about last night, and discussed it with my friends, to me I really think it could work. But you don't have to listen to anything I say, if you don't want.

Oh well dudes I'm off to Bus 432.

 

[Mercurius]

Oh please. . You were going to hate this movie no matter what.

You are the guy with a grudge, aren't ya?

Listen, no need to start bickering all over again, heh? Let's just talk the movie, without ad hominem stuff, deal?

 

[the_tortel]

I'm not really sweating the ending, this is kind of a mystery movie, but if you've read the book(which I have) you know "whodunnit", so I'm not worried about the lack of squid, may he/she/it rest in piece...(or not, idk..)

 

[protocida]

I liked more of this ending than the original. Dont kill me, but i really didn't care about the Squid. Only the destruction he caused (And that can be done equally, and even more destructive) whit this new cool ending they came up with.

 

[Mercurius]

I liked more of this ending than the original. Dont kill me, but i really didn't care about the Squid. Only the destruction he caused (And that can be done equally, and even more destructive) whit this new cool ending they came up with.

The way I see it, squid or no squid is not the real problem.

The problem is the infected stupidity they seem to be offering instead of.

It would be so ridiculously funny and wrong to meddle Manhattan in it! And they would destroy Manhattan's role at the end with it. t:

Not to mention the exaggeration of changing Veidt's level of chirurgical destruction to that pandaemonium.

Veidt is a calculating man, not a super-bomber. That's just stupid.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I believe...We are being f***ed with. A few months ago it seemed to me that the Squid was in. I'd like to think that is still the case, and Snyder and Co have effectively kept the real ending from us. I hope, anyways.

 

[Kanon]

Not to mention the exaggeration of changing Veidt's level of chirurgical destruction to that pandaemonium.

Veidt is a calculating man, not a super-bomber. That's just stupid.

That's exactly what I think it's the bigger problem with the new supposed ending... As a reader, the "moral check mate" worked because I could see the logic in the cynical choice Ozy, Dan, Laurie and the Doc make, and it was great to see Rorscharch remain uncompromised "not even in the face of Armaggedon". With the new genocide ending, the choice is pretty much evil, and the uncompromised choice is almost the only thing a right person would do...

 

[Solidus]

Not to mention the exaggeration of changing Veidt's level of chirurgical destruction to that pandaemonium.

Veidt is a calculating man, not a super-bomber. That's just stupid.

Now yet again, we do not have enough info. It still could be just as calculated and surgical as the squid. He may have the control of this "so called machine" that does this. And I don't see how having a controlled giant squid kill New York, be more accurate then a controlled storm, he has created.

Yet again we don't know the extent of what this Faux Manhattan powers can do. I think we are left with very little info.

Though from what little we do know, this could be as calculating of a plan as much as a giant alien squid.

 

[The Navigator]

That's exactly what I think it's the bigger problem with the new supposed ending... As a reader, the "moral check mate" worked because I could see the logic in the cynical choice Ozy, Dan, Laurie and the Doc make, and it was great to see Rorscharch remain uncompromised "not even in the face of Armaggedon". With the new genocide ending, the choice is pretty much evil, and the uncompromised choice is almost the only thing a right person would do...

Isn't it genocide either way? "Half of New York" is millions of people. It's a lie either way, a "trick" either way. The means are different, but the end is the same. All the countires unified and pacified at the cost of a great number of human lives.

 

[Mercurius]

Now yet again, we do not have enough info. It still could be just as calculated and surgical as the squid. He may have the control of this "so called machine" that does this. And I don't see how having a controlled giant squid kill New York, be more accurate then a controlled storm, he has created.

Yet again we don't know the extent of what this Faux Manhattan powers can do. I think we are left with very little info.

Though from what little we do know, this could be as calculating of a plan as much as a giant alien squid.

Yeah, that's true: we don't have enough information yet.

I was just addressing the multiple assets' rumours, and the others about Manhattan involved.

Those two ideas sound very much stupid, IMO.

And to Yojimbo: the point is not millions of people. It is Veidt's ability to find 1 point to strike with maximum power of destruction.

He thinks in chess terms, not annihilation.

 

[The Navigator]

And to Yojimbo: the point is not millions of people. It is Veidt's ability to find 1 point to strike with maximum power of destruction.

He thinks in chess terms, not annihilation.

I see what you're saying, but I was addressing the choice that had to be made by Dan, Laurie, etc. Setting aside the elevated bodycount, how has it become other than a moral checkmate?

 

[Hurm...]

you are the guy with a grudge, aren't ya?

Listen, no need to start bickering all over again, heh? Let's just talk the movie, without ad hominem stuff, deal?

lmao!