Question about magic in the DCU.

[Sharkfestation]

In the DCU, does magic have a weakness? In the acutal comics, can Nth metal still disrupt magic?

 

[WompuM]

Dont beleive so, thats a JLU thing.

 

[Sharkfestation]

So magic basically has no weakness? Does magic have a limt in the DCU?

 

[WompuM]

Magic is in a state of upheaval right now since Didio and co. desided the work Gaiman did for the books of magic wasn't hip.

 

[BrianWilly]

I dunno, I actually think that the original intent OYL was for magic to return to more of the state that Gaiman had set, after having diverted from it in recent years. "Everything has a price" and all that. How well they actually accomplished that, of course, is up for debate.

Which, incidentally, is one of the few weaknesses of magic in the DCU: it always has a price, and the more power you mess with, the more you pay for it. This comes off more narratively than anything you'd really be able to use in a fight, of course. Usually, in a fight, the only thing that can directly beat magic is different or stronger magic.

Beyond that, you just have to look at individual types of magic. Faerie magic is weak against iron, for instance. Alan Scott is still vulnerable to wood. A magician using ice is just as vulnerable to normal fire as he or would be to magic fire. Like with scientific heroes, it really depends on the individual instance.

 

[The Question]

Well, DCU magic is kind of complex. It isn't just a thing that you can use to do stuff. It has a lot of limits, but those limits are fluid. They change depending on the situation and are defined by magic itself, the creatures it is responsible for, it's users, and those who don't use ir or even believe in it.

 

[Aristotle]

Magic is the science of irrationality. The concept of placing concrete "rules" on magic is antithetical to what it means. Science is governed by those sorts of ideas. Magic is governed by a much more fundamentally irrational, illogical set of principles. Or rather, not governed by them.

 

[BrianWilly]

I...disagree.

The only characters who have ever espoused the whole "magic has no rules" mindset are the characters who don't understand magic in the least. The actual magicians and sorcerers and gods in these stories have always, always tried to impress upon us the notion that magic has a lot of principles and rites and oaths and practices that they understand and follow. And look at fictional worlds that are more fantasy/magic-oriented; they always follow a fairly understandable and well-documented set of rules of magic, much moreso than fictional worlds where magic is less important.

The only real significance is that its rules are not the rules of science. More spiritually-oriented than intellectually-oriented. Its principles are based on what could be instead of what is. But I think to use "illogical" to describe it only tells a fraction of the story.

 

[cerealkiller182]

like Zatanna, her spell casting only works when spoken backwards or Blue Devils Trident that only works on beings who originated from Hell.

You cant generalize magic like you can science. Theres too many factors.

 

[Aristotle]

I...disagree.

The only characters who have ever espoused the whole "magic has no rules" mindset are the characters who don't understand magic in the least. The actual magicians and sorcerers and gods in these stories have always, always tried to impress upon us the notion that magic has a lot of principles and rites and oaths and practices that they understand and follow.

I disagree with your disagreement. While every magical character has rules that he or she follows, they all seem to be different rules! Magic in the DCU is very similar to religion in the DCU: basically, whatever you believe about it, that's the truth about it for you. I'd say it's most in keeping with John Constantine's view of it, oddly enough.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I hate that take on magic. There ought to be some sort of internal consistency to magic, just like everything else.

 

[The Question]

I hate that take on magic. There ought to be some sort of internal consistency to magic, just like everything else.

Well, I am fond of it to a degree. But I think, even with that take, internal consistency is possible, simply from the fact that the various world cultures, and the religions and folktales and whatnot inherent within them, shape the function of magic depending on what kind your using.

 

[Xofenroht]

I think there is, actually. Science is based on a structure of theories and thinking that magick is just strictly irrational is dangerous. I've seen the Theory of Quantum Physics reflected in the beliefs of many shamans.

I don't remember whether it was in DC or Marvel (or Disney's Gargoyles) where they say that the line between "science" and "magick" is very thin (if there even is one.)

Besides, don't knock the people who believe in magick, our ancestors believed in it and they've gotten us this far.

 

[The Question]

I think there is, actually. Science is based on a structure of theories and thinking that magick is just strictly irrational is dangerous. I've seen the Theory of Quantum Physics reflected in the beliefs of many shamans.

I don't remember whether it was in DC or Marvel (or Disney's Gargoyles) where they say that the line between "science" and "magick" is very thin (if there even is one.)

Besides, don't knock the people who believe in magick, our ancestors believed in it and they've gotten us this far.

Gargoyles made a pretty big distinction. And Marvel likes to get all Lovecraftian with their magic, so it was probably DC. As for the Quantum Physics angle, I would like to see a modern day sorcerer in some sort of story who often sites theories on quantum physics and uses modern technology and sensibilities, and basically says that the only distinction between magic and science, when you get to the core of it, is weather you strive for a subjective or objective viewpoint.

 

[Xofenroht]

It's all over Native American folklore, with the emphasis on cycles and all.

With that said, Question, I'm on it.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I heard that magic is far different in DC,before the upheavals of recent things..I heard it was complicated.

 

[cerealkiller182]

still is. everyone just seem to blame magical inconsistencies on the "shift in magic"

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Magic was actually simpler before Infinite Crisis, as I recall. Everything fell under Chaos or Order, and the Lords of Chaos and Order were like the gods of magic.

 

[Kitsune]

Magic was actually simpler before Infinite Crisis, as I recall. Everything fell under Chaos or Order, and the Lords of Chaos and Order were like the gods of magic.

So what was Shazam using? Chaos or Order?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Order. Shazam himself was a Lord of Order, I believe.

 

[The Question]

Order. Shazam himself was a Lord of Order, I believe.

I don't think he was directly affiliated with either groups of Lords. In fact, I'm fairly certain he was simply a human sorcerer who made pacts with various deities and spirits for power.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but mortals could raise themselves to Lord status. Nabu was another mortal sorcerer, but he's also a Lord of Order. That's why, when his helm was given to Hector Hall, a child of Chaos, they remade Doctor Fate into an agent of balance, powered by both Chaos and Order.

 

[fifthfiend]

Gargoyles made a pretty big distinction.

Naw, one of the bigger motifs in that show was how the apparent differences between magic and technology are somewhat superficial and they're each different means of achieving the same end. They underscored it in the fight with Oberon about how energy was the same whether it was derived from magic or technology but it's there throughout a lot of the show; I mean they had an episode where they communicated with self-replicating sentient nanomachines by traveling into the aboriginal Dreamtime for ****'s sake.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Marvel's drawn the biggest distinction between magic and science, as far as I've seen. Reed Richards couldn't learn magic because his mind was too accustomed to science. Quasar's quantum bands can manipulate all forms of energy except magical energy. Desak had a gem that was specifically attuned to the unique energy gods use. Et cetera.

 

[BrianWilly]

I'm pretty sure that Shazam was confirmed canonically to be a Lord of Order, or at least he was one by the time of Infinite Crisis.

I disagree with your disagreement. While every magical character has rules that he or she follows, they all seem to be different rules! Magic in the DCU is very similar to religion in the DCU: basically, whatever you believe about it, that's the truth about it for you. I'd say it's most in keeping with John Constantine's view of it, oddly enough.

Hn. I don't see how that's necessarily very different from science in comics, though. Different magic works in different ways, but that's not illogical. You don't expect the Speed Force to work like the Central Power Battery, either. Writers will make up whatever rules they need to in order to fit what they need to tell of their specific mythos, magic or otherwise. If you take away the narrative aspect and just say that Superman's power to draw energy from the sun was magical in nature, for instance, it really changes nothing about how the power would be portrayed. He'd still have strength, speed, heat/cold powers, etc, consistently and logically. And if you took Wonder Woman and said that the Amazons were aliens from space with space alien powers, those powers would still function in the same internally-consistent way that they do right now.

I think the concept of magic in fiction just daunts people because it automatically brings to mind the notion of The Doctor Strange archetype who seems to be able to do anything with no set limits (well, until recently anyway). Yet the majority of magical characters aren't very like that at all. Alan Scott is magic, as is Kid Devil, or Raven, or Captain Marvel, and yet characters like them have incredibly consistent and procedural powers*. I think what confuses people isn't the notion of magic itself, but rather the notion of spells...which aren't quite the same but, unfortunately, do have a tendency to be made up for whatever purpose requires it. And yet science has the equivalent, too, with the notion of inventions; at any given moment, someone like Mr. Fantastic could just whip up any old gadget to fix whatever the narrative calls for it to fix.

*Which, while we're on the subject, is yet another reason I tend to disfavor Winick's Trials of Shazam; so much of it was just "Hey look, [insert nebulous mystic hooey]" instead of "Hey look, this is how it works."

Marvel's drawn the biggest distinction between magic and science, as far as I've seen. Reed Richards couldn't learn magic because his mind was too accustomed to science. Quasar's quantum bands can manipulate all forms of energy except magical energy. Desak had a gem that was specifically attuned to the unique energy gods use. Et cetera.

In some cases, yes. In others however, Marvel's interpretation of magic veers much more closely to the scientific than I think any of DC's ever did.

The most glaring example of this is mutants. Look at Scarlet Witch (and by extension Wiccan); all through her continuity, her powers entirely straddled a thin line between magic and science, to the point where to this day you can't comfortably claim one over the other. And look at Illyana Rasputin and Nightcrawler, whose specific genetic mutation is that they are able to teleport through demonic dimensions. Even Storm has some manner of genetic, untapped affinity towards magic. And consider that the astral plane utilized by all telepaths -- Xavier, Jean, Nate, etc -- is the exact same one that Dr. Strange and all other mystics use.

And as we all know, Stark was once able to replicate the properties of Thor's magic energy source, using his own tech. And look at Thor Girl; is her origin scientific? Mystical?

DC has some things like that as well, but to a much lesser degree, at least as far as I've observed. The one most notable aspect of DC to deeply straddle the magic/science line would be the New Gods...who are gods with all the requisite mythologicalness about them, and yet are powered almost exclusively through science or at least scientific terms. Otherwise, in pretty much every single instance I've ever seen throughout continuity, a very sharp divide is made between science and magic, and often vocally so with both sides consistently enforcing the divide.