BvS Questions about Plot Points

[Mayerlarch]

I do not intend this as a 'gotcha' thread where people point out nit-picks. But more where people can look for answers or opinions on why something did or did not happen in the film. For instance, during the movie one of the moments that confused me was during the Warehouse rescue of Martha Kent.

Why wouldn't the KGBEAST guy kill Martha the second he heard a ruckus going on in the room next door? Presumably Luther would have warned that if Superman showed up, then he should kill his Mom immediately (after all, Luther couldn't know that Superman wouldn't scan for Martha and rush to her instead of Batman).

There is literally no reason on Earth that terrorist dude wouldn't have killed Martha the second a Bat-Plane showed up outside and started shooting folks. He wasn't waiting on a kill order from Luther, as Luther gets a phone call later and expects it to be news that Martha is dead.

In terms of the meta explanation of "well then we wouldn't get an awesome fight scene)...we still could of. He saves Martha, throws her in the plane, then takes out the room of baddies because that's how Batman does. This just made no sense to me during the movie, or now a month later.

Any explanations?

 

[Jaxon]

KGBeast: you kill your hostage and you're signing your own death notice. Plus he has an army of goons he probably thinks will handle it.

 

[elgaz]

Kill Martha early, and he has nothing to bargain with.

He was a hired merc and not someone who would give up their own life just to fulfil Luthor's plan, like a suicide terrorist or other kind of similar fanatic. Ultimately, self-preservation would take priority over what Luthor told him to do.

 

[Micromind]

^ All that has been said above, plus KG Beast does not know who else has come to recuse Martha, is it just Batman or Cops are also there ? Is Superman also there ? (Remember he kidnapped Martha from Smallville.)

If he kills Martha he is done for.

 

[AndrewOz]

I do not intend this as a 'gotcha' thread where people point out nit-picks. But more where people can look for answers or opinions on why something did or did not happen in the film. For instance, during the movie one of the moments that confused me was during the Warehouse rescue of Martha Kent.

Why wouldn't the KGBEAST guy kill Martha the second he heard a ruckus going on in the room next door? Presumably Luther would have warned that if Superman showed up, then he should kill his Mom immediately (after all, Luther couldn't know that Superman wouldn't scan for Martha and rush to her instead of Batman).

There is literally no reason on Earth that terrorist dude wouldn't have killed Martha the second a Bat-Plane showed up outside and started shooting folks. He wasn't waiting on a kill order from Luther, as Luther gets a phone call later and expects it to be news that Martha is dead.

In terms of the meta explanation of "well then we wouldn't get an awesome fight scene)...we still could of. He saves Martha, throws her in the plane, then takes out the room of baddies because that's how Batman does. This just made no sense to me during the movie, or now a month later.

Any explanations?

I responded to other posts about this today in the what went wrong thread (#399), but have now traced it back to your original questions.
Below is the only justification I can come up with and it's spelled TDKR:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaxon View Post
If Batman doesn't take out the goons they come in and kill him.

You kill Martha you've lost your leverage and that leaves a very angry Superman. KGBeast dies if Martha dies.

He could easily have taken KGBeast out first and taken Martha out the window in the plane.
Easily. In a couple of seconds. Through the window, boot in Beasts' face, he's out cold, harness on Martha and she's whisked out the window, or he even takes her himself.

In and out, one thug down, Martha safe in the Batwing.
Then he could have taken out the rest of the guys.
If he felt the need.
Who can't even see the room they are in.

After the first round of Gunfire, let alone the explosion, there's no way Beast is sitting inside a separate locked room waiting to see what's going to happen.
He's either straight through the door, or sets Martha on fire and escapes through the window himself. Or even tries to escape with her if he wants to keep his leverage if you want to apply that justification.

There's any number of ways to resolve that scene that make sense, but it was built around the desire to have Batman crash through a wall and resolve a hostage situation with one shot from an M-60.
Because, TDKR.
The simplest would have been to stage it just like TDKR, where the hostage is in the same room with multiple thugs. Then him watching and waiting and hoping Batman goes down, but wanting to keep his leverage makes sense.
Like it did in the book.
But trying to force a plot to accomodate 2 separate scenes from TDKR without understanding how either works is how we got what we got.
Some of us just aren't excited enough by the visuals of a legendary work on screen to turn off the logical parts of our brains.

 

[thosemortalmen]

I do not intend this as a 'gotcha' thread where people point out nit-picks. But more where people can look for answers or opinions on why something did or did not happen in the film. For instance, during the movie one of the moments that confused me was during the Warehouse rescue of Martha Kent.

Why wouldn't the KGBEAST guy kill Martha the second he heard a ruckus going on in the room next door? Presumably Luther would have warned that if Superman showed up, then he should kill his Mom immediately (after all, Luther couldn't know that Superman wouldn't scan for Martha and rush to her instead of Batman).

There is literally no reason on Earth that terrorist dude wouldn't have killed Martha the second a Bat-Plane showed up outside and started shooting folks. He wasn't waiting on a kill order from Luther, as Luther gets a phone call later and expects it to be news that Martha is dead.

In terms of the meta explanation of "well then we wouldn't get an awesome fight scene)...we still could of. He saves Martha, throws her in the plane, then takes out the room of baddies because that's how Batman does. This just made no sense to me during the movie, or now a month later.

Any explanations?

Russian were ordered to Kill Martha if Superman appears, not Batman. Because Luthor is so sure with the outcome, it's whether Supes bring Bats head or his mom died, and never even considered that Bats will have a change of heart seeing "how ripe his hate" toward Superman and bend on destroying him. Not to mention, The one hour rule that he made for Supes to bring Bats head to the Scout ship where Lex are ready there and will show the world how dirty this "false god" can be, hence that dialogue: "All the cameras are on your ship (scout ship), to see the holy...etc".
And finally he can killed Superman with his own creation made by his blood (where in his hubris, Lex thinks he can handle DD).

 

[AndrewOz]

Russian were ordered to Kill Martha if Superman appears, not Batman. Because Luthor is so sure with the outcome, it's whether Supes bring Bats head or his mom died, and never even considered that Bats will have a change of heart seeing "how ripe his hate" toward Superman and bend on destroying him. Not to mention, The one hour rule that he made for Supes to bring Bats head to the Scout ship where Lex are ready there and will show the world how dirty this "false god" can be, hence that dialogue: "All the cameras are on your ship (scout ship), to see the holy...etc".
And finally he can killed Superman with his own creation made by his blood (where in his hubris, Lex thinks he can handle DD).

That makes perfect sense.
Beast froze because Batman showed up, not Superman. He did not know what to do because Luthor only mentioned the guy in the red cape.
When the one in the black cape showed up, they were confused, because there were no orders regarding him...

That is ridiculous.
Firstly, if we accept the premise that these mercenaries are prepared to die to kill Martha (because what else do you think will happen if Superman does show up and they kill his mother in front of him? Snyder has gone to great lengths to show this Superman is not a hero. He ignores crime. He kills. Why wouldn't he kill them?), why would they just freeze or hesitate when Batman shows up?
They aren't robot drones who've been programmed to only react if Superman shows up in their scanners.
Unless they are stupid to the point of ******ed, if anyone shows up to save Martha, she's dead.

If the argument is "because he's not Superman", how does KGBeast know it's not Superman?
All he knows is that there are sounds of gunfire, explosions, breaking wood and breaking men.
He can't see what's happening in the next room.
If we accept the fact the he does know it's Batman, why didn't he set him on when he burst through the wall straight away?

If he wants to escape, setting Martha alight would be a pretty good distraction.

If the answer is the timer, what happens when it runs out and Batman's still around?

If it is a potential suicide mission, where they are prepared to die at the hands of Superman rather than let him save Martha, why try and back Batman off by threatening Martha instead of just killing her?

If it's not a suicide mission, why didn't he just set Martha on fire and escape as soon as there was a sign of trouble? The timer again?

Lex isn't running a game show where Superman can win his mother back if he beats the buzzer. He clearly has no intention of letting her live.

Which brings me to the Batman didn't kill the 'Beast defense of Snyder:

"So, I tried to do it by proxy. Shoot the car they’re in, the car blows up or the grenade would go off in the guy’s hand, or when he shoots the tank and the guy pretty much lights the tank [himself]. I perceive it as him not killing directly, but if the bad guy’s are associated with a thing that happens to blow up, he would say that that’s not really my problem."

Except 'Beast didn't light the tank. Batman did. They explicitly show the tank get shot in close-up, gas start streaming out and then ignite by itself.
KGBeast doesn't pull the trigger causing the explosion.
When his tank starts shooting fire from the bullet hole, Batman leaps over Martha and it explodes. He set it off like a bomb.


It doesn't take any real effort to address these plot holes, simply asking "why wouldn't Superman save her" and building the idea around that.
Instead, this creative team starts with the idea - "I want to fit 2 TDKR scenes in somewhere. Let's have Batman rescue Superman's mother and do it there, it will help establish the beginning of their relationship and trust", without even contemplating the absurdity of a man distrustful of humanity in general, philosophically opposed to Batman's existence in particular, trusting him to rescue his Mother, after almost being beaten to death and stabbed by him moments earlier.
You need a compelling reason for him to be forced into that position. Then, when Batman succeeds, preferably without killing anybody, then he might start to re-assess his position on the Bat.
Snyder doesn't even think of these questions that immediately come from the set-up.

Here's a very simple scenario that makes it more plausible for why Batman goes instead of Superman, and also removes the preposterous suicide mission element implied by the set-up:
Luthor didn't give Batman all the Kryptonite.
Martha has an exploding collar around her neck, full of Kryptonite. Lex has provided proximity sensors, keyed to super-dense biological material around the warehouse that are linked to the collar.
The collar itself has one, that makes it impossible for Superman to get within 3 feet of her without setting it off.
The mercenaries also have Kryptonite bullets, just in case. Maybe they only have a couple each, in the top of their magazines.
This makes Batman and his skill set the only viable option to save Martha.
It also eliminates the "why can't he find his own Mother" defense. He can, he just can't get to her.
Lex could have explained this straight away on the rooftop, before his crazy philosophical rant. It would have given a reason for Superman to stand impotently, listening to his rant afterwards - because he's waiting to find out what it will take to get his Mother back.
It also gives him a plausible reason to not kill or incapacitate Batman immediately at the start of the fight, because he wants to use him to save Martha.
There's ample precedent in the comics for this scenario.

Yet, the very obvious and logical question of why didn't he simply take Martha first never even seems to have been considered by Snyder.

No wonder they can't set up a simple rescue in a way that the reasons it plays out are even slightly believable.

 

[AndrewOz]

Kill Martha early, and he has nothing to bargain with.

He was a hired merc and not someone who would give up their own life just to fulfil Luthor's plan, like a suicide terrorist or other kind of similar fanatic. Ultimately, self-preservation would take priority over what Luthor told him to do.

He's prepared to kill Superman's mother, in a world where Superman kills people for pointing a gun at his girlfriend.
They are all holding Superman's mother for Lex, with the intent to kill her.
They absolutely are suicide terrorists or fanatics.
It makes no sense(like almost every scene in the movie), as they are mercenaries, but if they aren't prepared to die, they aren't grabbing Lois or Martha in this DCEU.
If self preservation takes priority over Luthor's orders, KGBeast is out the window and away, leaving Martha behind unharmed, at the first sign of trouble.
Which would be gunfire, screaming, the sound of shattering wood, snapping bone and explosions.

 

[Motown Marvel]

A better question would be: why does batman track down KGBeast in the first place when looking for Martha? She could be held just about anywhere in the country by just about anyone hired by Luthor. There was pretty much zero reason for Batman to presume it was KGBeast who had Martha, other than it being convenient for the plot.

 

[The Guard]

It's the only lead he has. A key Luthor mercenary.

Not a bad place to start.

 

[DIRECTOR]

Here is the biggest plot point that is overlooked.......................

So in Clark's funeral, where everybody presumably that Clark knows (ex. Perry White) is at the funeral attendance, it's open casket....................... does he have the glasses on? Do they bury him with his glasses? It's open casket, did everybody who sees Clark either say, "mmmm why are they burying him with his glasses on" or "oh his glasses is off oh wait, it's Superman"

Zack Snyder is a complete joke..... and David Goyer, damn you both lol

 

[Jaxon]

Here is the biggest plot point that is overlooked.......................

So in Clark's funeral, where everybody presumably that Clark knows (ex. Perry White) is at the funeral attendance, it's open casket....................... does he have the glasses on? Do they bury him with his glasses? It's open casket, did everybody who sees Clark either say, "mmmm why are they burying him with his glasses on" or "oh his glasses is off oh wait, it's Superman"

Zack Snyder is a complete joke..... and David Goyer, damn you both lol

Funeral is attended by only close Kent Smallville people, and they have all essentially been keeping his secret their whole lives.

Snyder described in MoS as something they all know but don't talk about, like a small town secret.

 

[DIRECTOR]

Funeral is attended by only close Kent Smallville people, and they have all essentially been keeping his secret their whole lives.

Snyder described in MoS as something they all know but don't talk about, like a small town secret.

So Perry white now knows Clark is Superman

 

[thosemortalmen]

He's prepared to kill Superman's mother, in a world where Superman kills people for pointing a gun at his girlfriend.
They are all holding Superman's mother for Lex, with the intent to kill her.
They absolutely are suicide terrorists or fanatics.
It makes no sense(like almost every scene in the movie), as they are mercenaries, but if they aren't prepared to die, they aren't grabbing Lois or Martha in this DCEU.
If self preservation takes priority over Luthor's orders, KGBeast is out the window and away, leaving Martha behind unharmed, at the first sign of trouble.
Which would be gunfire, screaming, the sound of shattering wood, snapping bone and explosions.

in the end, maybe for the fact that he knows the possibility of escaping the situation is almost impossible that Martha is the only thing to be a leverage for his own survival.

Superman ain't kill nobody, not after Zod. It proves further by his hesitance or else he would kill Lex and Batman easily.

 

[thosemortalmen]

So Perry white now knows Clark is Superman

No he doesn't, and nowhere in both movies implies him so. He shrugged Kent all the time in the office and think of him as a stubborn crybaby.

 

[souperman]

A better question would be: why does batman track down KGBeast in the first place when looking for Martha? She could be held just about anywhere in the country by just about anyone hired by Luthor. There was pretty much zero reason for Batman to presume it was KGBeast who had Martha, other than it being convenient for the plot.

Isn't it Alfred that has "tracked" the terrorists that are holding Martha thru some Bat-Scanning device and then tells Batman?

 

[AndrewOz]

Isn't it Alfred that has "tracked" the terrorists that are holding Martha thru some Bat-Scanning device and then tells Batman?

It was indeed. I see this again as an editing issue, or a victim of trying to fit too much story in.
Lois was kidnapped by the 'Beast, who flew her in a Lexcorp helicopter to Lex. It's reasonable to assume given the history that he's in charge of Lex's "dirty deeds" dept.
It's also reasonable to assume that there has been sharing of notes and that Kynaezev is a POI and that Batman has been tracking his movements.
They should've had that conversation shown, but it isn't too hard to figure out the rationale.

It's still awfully convenient that Anatoly was put in charge of Martha, though.
Not much compartmentalisation going on there for the master plan of a supposed genius.

Leaving that aside, though, what is not so obvious, however, is what Superman was thinking when he went to fly off to save his mother, before Batman stopped him.
I still can't come up with a reason why Superman would have confronted him at all, wasting time, if he could just go find her after the confrontation.
If the answer is Batman knows where Anotoly is and shared it during the unseen debrief, then why did Alfred tell him where he was after that? Senior moment?
Plus, I still cannot find an acceptable reason for me to believe, after the preceding 2hrs, that Superman would think sending Batman was a good idea.

 

[AndrewOz]

Funeral is attended by only close Kent Smallville people, and they have all essentially been keeping his secret their whole lives.

Snyder described in MoS as something they all know but don't talk about, like a small town secret.

Obviously, Zack has never lived in a small town.
There is no way in a realistic cynical world someone doesn't sell that secret.

Unless they are afraid Supernan will hunt them down and kill them all, along with their families.

 

[AndrewOz]

It's the only lead he has. A key Luthor mercenary.

Not a bad place to start.

This is very true.
The only problem is, if he wasn't with Martha, by the time he got to him and interrogated him, Martha would have burned alive.
Fortunately for Martha, Lex only used one security team...