Raimi: Getting Venom right for SM3

[VoiceOfReason]

I posted this in another thread but I really wanted to hear what others thought about this -- I am sort of aiming for a detailed forum of discussion here about character development.

Back in 1988, Venom was a unique character full of potential. He was the first major comicbook villain who had no ambition of riches or world dominance, just the death of the hero. All other villains in comics (Joker, Luthor, Magneto, Dr. Doom, Doc Ock) saw the hero as a mere roadblock to their ultimate goal.

Venom had a great opportunity to become a true perversion of Spider-man. However, pathetic writers trying to hit unrealistic deadlines took the easy way out and played Venom out like a $5 streetwalker. What Marvel needs to do is a major continuity edit and rework Venom:

-rework the lethal protector bit (have him killing local criminals while hunting for Spider-man). Venom is basically The Punisher with Spidey powers. He lost his wife, his relationship with his father, his job, his existance as a human... so many things that could be developed in the hands of someone competent.

-keep the dark humor (what's a "we want to eat your brains" among friends, eh?)

-play up the lethal rivalry. reduce Venom's use of tendrils, and re-inforce the connection to Spidey. Have both characters in New York, and when they meet up, it's a bloody fight with no real winner, rather than the usual cat-n-mouse chase with Venom ending up knocked out in a pool of black goo.

Venom is only a shallow character because he's never been written by a halfway decent writer.

This is a long post and I doubt too many people read long posts on forums anymore, but I'd *really* love for people to debate this.

I must say the above post I've quoted is a much more eloquent way of putting it than I did earlier. Venom could certainly become a very deep character, but he has never really struck me as one because of how he is portrayed. I think he could easily fall into one of two categories, but normally we only see him in the first:

1. Badass juggernaut. Everyone loves a villain who is full of muscle and able to beat the **** out of the hero with an utterly vicious hatred. His appearance just screams "Don't screw with me unless you feel like losing some vital organs," and compared to the arguably tame appearance of most Spider-man villains, and even many villains of other series in general, Venom gives Spider-man a run for his money with his strength and attitude. His name's badass, his jagged, blank white eyes induce fear, his strength is unparalleled, and he would be good at hammering Spidey through multiple walls of steel if he so chose.

However, he could easily be in the following category:

2. Villain of circumstance. Venom is the perfect example of someone who used to be much more calm. Eddie Brock wanted to make a living for himself and so many opportunities were stripped clean. He lost everything important to him, and at the core of that sensitive pain was Peter Parker. He had a justifiable anger, and the symbiote granted Eddie the powers to do something about it. Spider-man's powers are no longer unchallenged -- Eddie Brock is now placed on an even playing field with Spider-man through the gift of the symbiote, which feeds off Eddie's emotions and transforms him into a superhuman being of pure hatred. So many of these concepts seem to be underplayed in the portrayal of Venom. How strange can it be for one of the most vicious villains to emerge as a matter of circumstance? His sole goal is to kill Spider-man -- a goal fueled by pain and unbridled anger, and this is a goal that is not brought to light NEARLY as much as it should.

Battles and epic wars are much more closer to the reader/viewer when there is effective character development. It's the difference between casually viewing a badass villain pounding on the hero just because he can, and gripping the edge of your seat because you're witnessing the culmination of the characters' essences during some intense battle where emotions manifest themselves through the hero and villain.

Instead of settling for Venom punching Spider-man in the face for the sake of being a badass villain, you get Venom relentlessly hammering on Spider-man, devoid of mercy, with each punch deliberate and full of raw power derived from sheer vitriol -- you have Venom's clawed hands wrapped around Spider-man's neck, attempting to mercilessly squeeze the life out of Parker until the veins in Venom's muscles burst, fueled by anger and an undying wish to utterly obliterate the source of all hatred, pain, and anguish at all costs. It makes the fight that much more meaningful because you are also able to empathize with the villain -- you then genuinely care about who comes out victorious. You develop a relationship with the hero and villain, and this is what gives characters depth. Motives intermix and we share a personal side with the characters and learn to relate.

This is probably something similar to what Raimi saw in Venom, if I had to guess. It's a smart move on his part to both appeal to both audiences: Those who want the crazy juggernaut killer, and the other side who are more interested in epic battles fought by awesome characters fueled by emotion. So many characters have such potential and I feel as if Venom has been largely underplayed, but I really hope that Raimi is able to bring all of this to light in Spider-Man 3, and this is something I am really rooting for. I hope someone does Venom right this times, and I hope that someone is Raimi.

 

[spideyman101]

They're a lot of big words there, VoiceOfReason... we're not but humble posters. :P

But anyways, you bring up a good point and I agree with you fully on this.

 

[Solidus]

I agree very very much. I think that Venom's depth was never seen as much as other people saw it, and yes the writers did a poor job potraying what I think McFarlane was trying to create with Venom.

The symbiote story is my favorite because it has a connection with my life in the metaphorical sense. I have always been a good person, always helped out anyone I could, but always got treated like crap for years, then one day I just kinda could not take it anymore and became mean to a lot of people around me, it took me some time to relize this, and I "ripped" my anger away and became my old self again.

I think a lot of people go through this kind of stuff in their life, and thats what no one ever saw in Venom/symbiote. The symbiote to me always represented anger, and hatred in the purest form. The anger and hate with in all of us. That is why I feel the symbiote said in Spidey 3: "Never wound what you can't kill." because no matter who you are, you cannot destroy the darkness with in you, only contain it, and subdue it, we will always have evil within us, but it is up to us to control it.

I believe that the symbiote story *the one mainly Sam is telling* is all about this, revenge hate, and that everyone has it within them. I still think the symbiote is the center of "3" whether people like to admit it or not.

We have Peter who took the route of a true hero, it was painful, and he sacrafices a lot, but he does tear off the symbiote, his anger, because anger all it truly does is consume you, and turn you into some one who you really are not, * I know from experinece* Or you can take the dark side that Eddie did, yes he DID have very justifiable anger, just like I did, and he embraces his own anger, and becomes Venom. Some one who is just filled with hate an anger, not just to Peter, but to society as a whole, he hates his life, and he hates what God has given him. The Symbiote offers him comfort, just like my anger did, but it can consume. And I think it is great at the end of "3" how Eddie dies, it shows that if all you have is anger in your heart, that is all you will become and you will be nothing more then an empty shell of a man.

But all in all I think Sam is brining the Venom that should of always been, not just a monster, but it represents the monster that is in all of us, and the choice one must take. "The Greatest Battle Lies Within." Sums it all up. And I think that there is no greater enemy then the one inside of you, which is why Venom/Symbiote is the most interesting villian to me.

 

[Immortalfire]

They're a lot of big words there, VoiceOfReason... we're not but humble posters. :P

 

[Visionary]

Do you people not see the VENOM sticky thread, stop trying to feel special and put it in the Venom thread?

Thank God Raimi is smart enough to kill this character, to have this going on in the SM4 forum would make me want to kill a MoFo!

 

[Venom 1988]

I agree very very much. I think that Venom's depth was never seen as much as other people saw it, and yes the writers did a poor job potraying what I think McFarlane was trying to create with Venom.

What David Michelinie was trying to create with Venom. All McFarlane did was draw Venom, he had nothing to do with the creation of the character.

 

[Immortalfire]

I'm chewing over what to do with this, merge or leave it be. I understand the desire to talk new ideas..but then, you could discuss them in the already established threads.

 

[VoiceOfReason]

I posted it as a new thread because I wanted to foster discussion about the sides of Venom we may not speak of too often -- the "Venom thread" seems primarily "juggernaut-oriented" and I didn't want the discussion to die off somewhere within the glut of pages in there. There is a huge part of this Spider-man trilogy so far that isn't hit on by too many fans (about how the stories work together and how Venom really serves to tie up multiple loose ends).

 

[Immortalfire]

You make a compelling plea. Therefore, this remains as it's own.

Just be glad I'm not Visionary, who would apparently close every new thing made.

 

[Solidus]

What David Michelinie was trying to create with Venom. All McFarlane did was draw Venom, he had nothing to do with the creation of the character.

My appologies, sometimes I always forget that, even with me McFarlane gets too much credit. Yes what David was trying to create.

 

[Venom 1988]

My appologies, sometimes I always forget that, even with me McFarlane gets too much credit. Yes what David was trying to create.

No worries

 

[HughJackFan420]

you wanna get Venom right???...DON'T KILL HIM OFF IN SPIDERMAN 3

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

couldn't have said it better myself. Venom has personalities in him (more than one) that all of us get caught up in interest. Sam Raimi was interested in Eddie Brocks character alot because of the guilt and what not which specificly besides Avi Arad, pushed Sam into making Venom in this film. I myself want to share wih you guys that I'm interested in how Venom fights, the epic battles and the story and feeling of is driving Venom into a deep dark road of redemption so it's like he is caught in a dark hole, he keeps trying to climb up and right when he reaches the top he falls all the way back down. so the main base of what is going on that is one of the things that caught my interest is how Venom deals with the raging anger that is without a doubt uncontrolable and purley evil and there's no question about it. Venom isn't like other villians in terms of emotion but he does have evil emotions but no sympathy what so ever and that is a fact. so Venom isn't a character that we should love just for fighting, he's a deep dark unrelentless creature that has taken over a poor sould who does have regular emotions but no self respect at all. my point is that Venom should be liked because of what he is and what he's most defenitley driven by and his motives. Macfarlane was the first guy ever to draw Venom and quite frankly he did an awesome job, Sam Raimi seem's to be taking some elements from when Macfarlane was drawing him but adding new aspects to the character. Venom (in spidey3) is slimmer than Macfarlanes Venom but one of the things that is remaining the same between the two is the emotional character who has troubles in his life.

 

[Spade]

I concur with the points being made, but diverge in opinion when it comes to the 'we want to eat your brains' bit. SpideyKicksButt recently did an article on everything that made Brock become a mediocre villain. The "psycho killer" bit gets old, and then you need to validate it- hence the moral code. Then the moral code makes him too nice, and you need crazy things to contrast with his personality. Hence the brain-eating comments. You can avoid all of that by writing Brock into a role that makes him interesting rather than repulsive or heroic.

The character needs good revisions rather than rehashes of what made him mediocre. Some of the changes are good- I liked Bagley's continuation of the blue highlight and the mouth- but almost all of his characteristics that were added were detrimental to making a good working Brock. I could care less about showing him make over-the-top kills of random officers or spewing green drool over his Hulk-sized pecs. I want to be able to see the Brock tortured by the fact that Peter has inadvertedly impacted his life for the worse, one who is definitely a few cards short of the full deck and filled with a lot of hatred. I don't care if he's single-minded. In fact, he works best that way. I just want what I know Sam can give me.

I have faith in the movie adaption. My only qualm would be how the blurry pic seems to be showing Venom. I'm really hoping it's that the picture was really out of focus. I liked the leaked version. Just paint it black instead of purple and I'd be happy. The thin SDCC version and the art leaks are better to me. I'm not a big griper about the look- his look is iconic, and he could be pink for all I care- but I really hope Raimi gives him what I saw in the original leak: a Venom who looks familiar but can flow with the theme of the film. Whatever works.

 

[Mr Jide]

I'm chewing over what to do with this, merge or leave it be. I understand the desire to talk new ideas..but then, you could discuss them in the already established threads.

This sounds more like a voice of reason. Just merege this thread bwith the venom thread, thats why it's there.

 

[BillLoomis]

Thank God Raimi is smart enough to kill this character, to have this going on in the SM4 forum would make me want to kill a MoFo!

Thanks for posting that crap without a spoiler...wipe!

 

[VoiceOfReason]

The voice of reason would like to remind you exactly which forum, in fact, you are currently viewing.

Mr. 7000+: The issue is not one of reason but efficiency -- big difference. Unless you mean reasonable allocation, in which case is debatable, sure.

 

[CrashNburn]

^^but you are in the spoiler section of spiderman 3. there is a non-spoiler section of spiderman 3. i hope everyone realizes this and stops talking about posting spoiler or blacking out spoiler info. go to the non-spoiler section if you dont want to know about the movie.

 

[THE MR. TERRIFIC]

I totally agree with the fact that Venom has never really been written the right way! He could have very well been Spidey's new biggest foe. Like you think Batman you think Joker, you think Superman you think Lex Luthor. The list goes on. When you think Spiderman you think Green Goblin, but if Venom was written the way he should have been, would be synonymous with .

 

[shogunrua]

Well, I think that giving some sort of morality to Venom (The "we have to protect the innoncents" thing) has opened the door for what they did, that is take Venom from villain to vigilante (some sort of fusion between Spidey and the Punisher), I hope they will forget that side from the old stories of Venom. They should make less Venom appearances but make sure that everyone of them will be great. He must pose some real threat to Spiderman, has it was in his first appearances

 

[CrashNburn]

sounds good to me

 

[Drummerdude7]

Venom started as a great character, he really took the whole "anti spiderman" to another level. I mean Scorpion was really the first anti-spiderman, but as time went on he became a b class villain (ironic how he ended up becoming venom)

I'm just glad theyre focusing on giving Venom depth, because as time went on in the comics, he was turning into a brainless monster and writers really lost sight on the motivations and traits that gave Venom such a distinct personality in the first place.....here is a character whose sole objective and motivation was to destroy spiderman.....but then writers had to take him and do needless spin offs which really dulled down his character and amped up his musculature

 

[h0metwnhero]

To be honest when Venom had his first stint he was a great character. All the motivation was there and they used the right tools to create him. They just didnt pull another average joe out of a vat of chemicals and pit him against spiderman. They gave him back story, powers feasible in the story line because of spiderman originally wearing the suit. I thought one of the best things they gave Venom was his immunity to the spider sense. It was all great. Then lethal protector came along. Venom went spiraling down. The "truce" he bonded with Spiderman took away the motivation for his character. Venom was suppose to be two seperate entities brought together because of their hate for spiderman. They butchered the characted even more by giving him children/spin-offs/leaches...however you want it looked at. Carnage I could take, because there was somewhat of a story, But when they start pulling characters like Toxin and what not, before you knew it there was whole league of them running around. Now with all that being said it makes you appreciate what Raimi has done. He took almost 20 years worth of story, filtered out the crap, and gave you what Venom is all about. I'd rather have 20 minutes of screen time with a character who stayed true to the source material and what he/she was all about. Then watch an hours worth of monster mashing just because it looks pretty on screen. From what I see, Raimi got it right. Thank god.