Justice League Ray Fisher - WB Investigation Updates Thread

[emc5466]

The apparent surprise he has here and in his prior tweet makes me think maybe "I won't work on any film Hamada was involved in" was meant to be some sort of ultimatum and he was hoping the company would get rid of Hamada.

This. He actually thought they would pick him over Hamada. Unreal.

 

[Da-Scribe]

All that stuff about Hamada...yikes.

 

[kguillou]

Jeezus, Ray really is going the whole 9 yards with this.

I have to be totally honest though, guys, and this is just my opinion. I'm not seeing Hamada as this Machiavellian supervillain that Ray is making him out to be. He heard Ray out in an hour long phone call, agreed that Joss was toxic and agreed to excise and him and Berg and then, yes, he defended his long time colleague Geoff Johns. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'm just grown jaded to this cold, cynical capitalist system that we all live in, but is that surprising that he defended his friend and colleague like that? Why would he just take Ray's word for it especially when Ray is reluctant to divulge specifics? If I'm in a leadership position you're coming to me with serious allegations, I need specifics if you are expecting me to take serious action.

I dunno, I wanna be clear, I think its evident some bad stuff went on, and I'm still on Fisher's side but I'm also getting the vibe that Ray is not giving people a lot to work with in order to justify this full exorcism of everyone at DC films like he requesting. I'm trying to see both sides to this thing here, I dont see Hamada as a bad guy. All it looks to me is that he was trying to work with Fisher.

 

[DlAMONDZ]

You already know if a white woman made these claims Hamada would've been fired months ago

 

[Primal Slayer]

You already know if a white woman made these claims Hamada would've been fired months ago

I dont know about that. He wasnt involved in anything sexual, he wasnt involved in anything racial. He's being accused of "undermining an investigation"

 

[emc5466]

Hamada wasn’t even involved with JL. All he did was cast some slight doubt about the Geoff Johns claims and even that’s pushing it.

 

[heatvision38]

Jeezus, Ray really is going the whole 9 yards with this.

I have to be totally honest though, guys, and this is just my opinion. I'm not seeing Hamada as this Machiavellian supervillain that Ray is making him out to be. He heard Ray out in an hour long phone call, agreed that Joss was toxic and agreed to excise and him and Berg and then, yes, he defended his long time colleague Geoff Johns. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'm just grown jaded to this cold, cynical capitalist system that we all live in, but is that surprising that he defended his friend and colleague like that? Why would he just take Ray's word for it especially when Ray is reluctant to divulge specifics? If I'm in a leadership position you're coming to me with serious allegations, I need specifics if you are expecting me to take serious action.

I dunno, I wanna be clear, I think its evident some bad stuff went on, and I'm still on Fisher's side but I'm also getting the vibe that Ray is not giving people a lot to work with in order to justify this full exorcism of everyone at DC films like he requesting. I'm trying to see both sides to this thing here, I dont see Hamada as a bad guy. All it looks to me is that he was trying to work with Fisher.

I don't see this as Machiavellian behavior, per se. If it's true, I just see this as typical behavior of a boss who is trying to make it seem like things are smooth sailing and ignoring issues below him or not taking them seriously as he could, and as that problem did not go away, he tried harder and harder to make it go away rather deal with the problem as is. In other words, it seems to me this may have been an issue that Hamada just handled very poorly (whether or not he is an otherwise decent person, I have no idea) and it got away from him. I wonder if he would do things differently looking back.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Jeezus, Ray really is going the whole 9 yards with this.

I have to be totally honest though, guys, and this is just my opinion. I'm not seeing Hamada as this Machiavellian supervillain that Ray is making him out to be. He heard Ray out in an hour long phone call, agreed that Joss was toxic and agreed to excise and him and Berg and then, yes, he defended his long time colleague Geoff Johns. I mean, I dunno, maybe I'm just grown jaded to this cold, cynical capitalist system that we all live in, but is that surprising that he defended his friend and colleague like that? Why would he just take Ray's word for it especially when Ray is reluctant to divulge specifics? If I'm in a leadership position you're coming to me with serious allegations, I need specifics if you are expecting me to take serious action.

I dunno, I wanna be clear, I think its evident some bad stuff went on, and I'm still on Fisher's side but I'm also getting the vibe that Ray is not giving people a lot to work with in order to justify this full exorcism of everyone at DC films like he requesting. I'm trying to see both sides to this thing here, I dont see Hamada as a bad guy. All it looks to me is that he was trying to work with Fisher.

It doesn’t sound to me at all like Hamada didn’t have specifics. More that he had them but denied them because of his friendship with Johns. If true, then he’s a terrible leader who doesn’t deserve his position. He’d also be violating employment laws.

 

[Mysteryman]

It doesn’t sound to me at all like Hamada didn’t have specifics. More that he had them but denied them because of his friendship with Johns. If true, then he’s a terrible leader who doesn’t deserve his position. He’d also be violating employment laws.

If True.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

While I've been pretty openly skeptical about some of Fisher's claims especially about Johns, Geoff Johns's writing has always had a weirdly passive aggressive undercurrent to it when it comes to undoing or belittling other writers work. Wouldn't massively shock me if that reflected part of his personality.

Like, dude has dedicated a weirdly significant portion of his writing lately to reworking Alan Moore's old stories to be about how terrible Alan Moore's legacy in the comics industry is and how superior mainstream superhero comics are.

This could and indeed probably does mean absolutely nothing. It's just something I've picked up over the years.

 

[Micromind]

I think Ray has a point, Hamada tried to shield Geoff, mainly because DC films and TV shows depended so much on Geoff John's writing at that time, it seems that Geoff was also responsible with all the problems with JL reshoots.

I think Geoff Johns is not attached to many DC movie projects, (he's already off Aquaman 2).

The problem here seems to be the extreme position that Ray has taken to demand Hamada's ouster, maybe he should have let other Execs. decide on what to do with Hamada.

 

[kguillou]

I agree, whats not helping Ray is that he seems a little bloodthirsty. The way he’s basically saying he’s not going to allow people like Whedon and Berg to step down quietly, it further feeds the perception that Fishers just out to make a spectacle and take everybody down.

I still do not see Hamada as the villain the though. I think at the end of the day the guy’s just trying to handle this whole thing without making a big mess but I think Ray is saying that perhaps making a little bit of a mess is necessary in order to properly rearrange the furniture.

.....that metaphor didnt really make sense but u catch my drift: lol

 

[DlAMONDZ]

I dont know about that. He wasnt involved in anything sexual, he wasnt involved in anything racial. He's being accused of "undermining an investigation"

We saw how fast AT&T set in motion the removal of Kevin T once allegations from a white actress came out

This is America. People have gotten killed over this. Especially minorities

 

[MbJ]

The other execs have presumably already decided what to do with Hamada; hence re-upping his contract. Whatever they found in that investigation either didn't warrant a firing or they just don't care one way or the other, which I'm guessing is why Ray got angry after initially claiming he was happy with the investigation.

We saw how fast AT&T set in motion the removal of Kevin T once allegations from a white actress came out

Because his misconduct was sexual in nature (and came out during the worst possible time during the height of the #MeToo movement, meaning WB desperately wanted to not have Weinstein-level negative publicity for continuing to employ someone like that). Tsujihara, IIRC, also publicly admitted his guilt after reporters began writing about the affair.

The allegations here aren't really a 1:1 comparison.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Yeah, this has no relation to #MeToo stuff. This isn't to downplay the seriousness of it, but we're talking ****y behavior not violent assault.

 

[Primal Slayer]

We saw how fast AT&T set in motion the removal of Kevin T once allegations from a white actress came out

This is America. People have gotten killed over this. Especially minorities

Not even remotely the same situation. Kevin Tsujihara had a sexual relationship that lead to his downfall along with BvS/JL not doing as expected. Rushing JL just to get a pay day.

 

[kguillou]

So however you feel about the issue, what ramifications does this dissertation have on Hamada now? Is his job in jeopardy now you think? Because however you slice it, this publicity hurts him.

 

[Mr. E Nygma]

No I imagine they knew what Ray was accusing Hamada of behind the scenes and he still got his contract extension. What we’ve only just heard from Ray I’m sure some people above Hamada were told too.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

No one cares outside of DC fandom, it gets a bit of attention in the broader film community but the consensus there is... Err, not terribly sympathetic or charitable to Ray.

Regardless of whether it is right or not I suspect they have their reasons to be confident that Johns and Hamada are fine.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Investigating Hamada would’ve required a separate investigation so I’m not surprised Warner decided to blow past it.


At any rate, it doesn’t make Ray “bloodthirsty” because he won’t let abusive people step down quietly. Why would he? Why would anyone? Isn’t the point about Hollywood’s culture of abuse to end?

And not to target you @kguillou because I know you’re well-intentioned, but trying to bury claims of workplace misconduct isn’t avoiding a mess. It’s creating one. And is illegal. Hamada has a responsibility to his employees and not properly escalating their grievances is a massive violation of that.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Right now, Ray has created a narrative that WB has fired him for speaking out against Hamada. Unless he pursues legal action, I don’t see it going anywhere.

 

[kguillou]

Investigating Hamada would’ve required a separate investigation so I’m not surprised Warner decided to blow past it.


At any rate, it doesn’t make Ray “bloodthirsty” because he won’t let abusive people step down quietly. Why would he? Why would anyone? Isn’t the point about Hollywood’s culture of abuse to end?

And not to target you @kguillou because I know you’re well-intentioned, but trying to bury claims of workplace misconduct isn’t avoiding a mess. It’s creating one. And is illegal. Hamada has a responsibility to his employees and not properly escalating their grievances is a massive violation of that.

I agree, Ray himself said no one should have to argue with their employer about claims of abuse, racism or discrimination and no employer should dissuade said employee of doing so. Its just such a tough situation because we dont know exactly what happened so its easy to see this as a case of an inexperienced young actor who doesnt know how Hollywood works trying to make noise.

We all wanna know what happened but the truth is, if Ray did come out tomorrow and spell out exactly what he is accusing Whedon, Johns etc of, its over for him. Because that is EXACTLY what their lawyers are waiting for Fisher to do. The moment he comes out and says “Geoff Johns did this to me,” Johns’ lawyers would eat him alive, so Ray is actually being legally smart by staying vague in public with his allegations. Its just....we the public seeing this get frustrated because we wanna know and cast our own verdict so ppl assume he’s making stuff up.

 

[heatvision38]

While I've been pretty openly skeptical about some of Fisher's claims especially about Johns, Geoff Johns's writing has always had a weirdly passive aggressive undercurrent to it when it comes to undoing or belittling other writers work. Wouldn't massively shock me if that reflected part of his personality.

Like, dude has dedicated a weirdly significant portion of his writing lately to reworking Alan Moore's old stories to be about how terrible Alan Moore's legacy in the comics industry is and how superior mainstream superhero comics are.

This could and indeed probably does mean absolutely nothing. It's just something I've picked up over the years.

I second this.

 

[MbJ]

It definitely is a thing in his writing. It might not be out of spite, but he has a habit of retconning/reworking backstories or canon details a lot to better conform to his personal ideas. Superboy being a clone of Lex Luthor and Superman was something that he made up out of the blue and completely contradicted the character's original backstory, for instance.

That's not necessarily always a bad thing (I liked the Luthor retcon), but I could totally see him having an ego about his view of how these characters should be, especially since the studio has relied on him as a consultant so often in these adaptations.

 

[TheVileOne]

So...what actually happened here? All I've seen are these vague descriptions and allegations.