The Rise of Skywalker Reactions to "Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker"

I guess I can see where you're coming from with that. I don't think it's exactly fair, though. TFA was mostly set-up, and to that end it did that job well, it got people excited to see more. RoS, on the other hand had a lot of ideas that could have had deeper meaning if more time had been spent on them, but instead we got the cliff's notes version of events.

TLJ basically focused almost entirely on either character study or meta commentary, to the detriment of everything else, particularly world building, lore, exploring new mysteries and revelations, the things that make a fantasy fantastical. And I think only in the case of Kylo and Luke was the character study done well (ignoring the arguable incongruity between OT Luke and TLJ Luke). What's the point of telling a story in a fantasy world if you don't want to embrace the fantasy side of it, if you're just going to tear down the intricacies of the universe and lore and backstory and simplify the conflict?

There's a balance that could have been achieved that simply wasn't.

I don't agree at all that Ryan Johnson didn't embrace the fantasy elements of Star Wars. He did. He very much told a story I felt was consistent with the world of Star Wars, only he was also making a commentary on the cyclical nature of war and dealing with failure. All of those ideas I think were executed wonderfully, with the exception that the Canto Bight stuff wasn't amazingly executed. But I like the ideas he was introducing there. But all too often I think when people say they don't think the movie embraced the fantasy or sci-fi Star Wars, what they're really saying is they don't like what Rian Johnson did was Star Wars. Rian Johnson's movie was a love letter to Star Wars that has been drastically misinterpreted.

Honestly I wish they would have kept going with that idea about war between good and evil being cyclical and finding another path to bring balance to the universe. I think there was a great setup for it, and if you're asking me what I would have done with this movie I probably would have had Rey discover something in the Jedi texts that leads her down a journey that Kylo Ren would end up following that would be about the true nature of the force. That's what I would have done and I feel like that's what Rian Johnson was setting up.
 
I don't agree at all that Ryan Johnson didn't embrace the fantasy elements of Star Wars. He did. He very much told a story I felt was consistent with the world of Star Wars, only he was also making a commentary on the cyclical nature of war and dealing with failure. All of those ideas I think were executed wonderfully, with the exception that the Canto Bight stuff wasn't amazingly executed. But I like the ideas he was introducing there. But all too often I think when people say they don't think the movie embraced the fantasy or sci-fi Star Wars, what they're really saying is they don't like what Rian Johnson did was Star Wars. Rian Johnson's movie was a love letter to Star Wars that has been drastically misinterpreted.

Honestly I wish they would have kept going with that idea about war between good and evil being cyclical and finding another path to bring balance to the universe. I think there was a great setup for it, and if you're asking me what I would have done with this movie I probably would have had Rey discover something in the Jedi texts that leads her down a journey that Kylo Ren would end up following that would be about the true nature of the force. That's what I would have done and I feel like that's what Rian Johnson was setting up.

I agree wholeheartedly with your posts.
 
I don't agree at all that Ryan Johnson didn't embrace the fantasy elements of Star Wars. He did. He very much told a story I felt was consistent with the world of Star Wars, only he was also making a commentary on the cyclical nature of war and dealing with failure. All of those ideas I think were executed wonderfully, with the exception that the Canto Bight stuff wasn't amazingly executed. But I like the ideas he was introducing there. But all too often I think when people say they don't think the movie embraced the fantasy or sci-fi Star Wars, what they're really saying is they don't like what Rian Johnson did was Star Wars. Rian Johnson's movie was a love letter to Star Wars that has been drastically misinterpreted.

Honestly I wish they would have kept going with that idea about war between good and evil being cyclical and finding another path to bring balance to the universe. I think there was a great setup for it, and if you're asking me what I would have done with this movie I probably would have had Rey discover something in the Jedi texts that leads her down a journey that Kylo Ren would end up following that would be about the true nature of the force. That's what I would have done and I feel like that's what Rian Johnson was setting up.

Yup, i will honestly say that a few things i didnt like about TLJ was the Reylo stuff, the snoke being a throwaway character, the way he handled poe and finn...and most of all killing Luke.
But i cant and wont deny the basic idea of TLJ being absolutly fantastic.

He brought new things to the table and was going far deeper than most star wars movies.
TLJ has so much interesting aspects that make it more than a simple scifi popcorn movie.

I do think the movie would have worked without Killing Luke for example, without killing snoke(who i thought had incredible potential to be revealed as plagueis)
But then i think Hans death also was pointless.

However that is all fanboy stuff that is rooted for my in nostalgia i still cant let go.
I waited so long to see those characters back again, but seeing them so "different" and have them killed off one by one, just didnt sit right with me after i imagined so many times how it could go after ROTJ and with how the EU told me things have gone.
But to truly bring the series farther, holding onto nostalgia can be a problem.
So i absolutly love the ideas TLJ had, i may not and maybe never will love the execution of it...but the potential and ideas i cant deny.
 
I don't agree at all that Ryan Johnson didn't embrace the fantasy elements of Star Wars. He did. He very much told a story I felt was consistent with the world of Star Wars, only he was also making a commentary on the cyclical nature of war and dealing with failure. All of those ideas I think were executed wonderfully, with the exception that the Canto Bight stuff wasn't amazingly executed. But I like the ideas he was introducing there. But all too often I think when people say they don't think the movie embraced the fantasy or sci-fi Star Wars, what they're really saying is they don't like what Rian Johnson did was Star Wars. Rian Johnson's movie was a love letter to Star Wars that has been drastically misinterpreted.

Honestly I wish they would have kept going with that idea about war between good and evil being cyclical and finding another path to bring balance to the universe. I think there was a great setup for it, and if you're asking me what I would have done with this movie I probably would have had Rey discover something in the Jedi texts that leads her down a journey that Kylo Ren would end up following that would be about the true nature of the force. That's what I would have done and I feel like that's what Rian Johnson was setting up.

I too really liked that aspect of TLJ. At the same time, I feel like most fantasy stories tend to struggle with nailing the "breaking the wheel" aspect. It's hard to escape some sense that the cycle goes on and on. Also, I think even Rian kind of backpedals on some of the headier ideas bit by having Luke reaffirm his belief in the Jedi by the end. I think with the way TLJ ended, it had set the table for one last climactic good vs. evil conflict. It was just what exactly that would look like that was unclear.

If we're looking to real world parallels with it all, I rather like the idea of one central evil through the whole saga in Palpatine. I liken it to the Cold War. The West truly thought it had won the Cold War in 91. That it was over, and we were living in "post history". You take a look at the state of affairs right now though, and that turns out to be very much wrong. It never really ended. It's now reared its ugly head in a way that's worse than ever. I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole here, but let's just say the idea of an old evil-- wounded, embittered and clinging hard to the old ways...seems like a pretty good analogy for much of the state of the world right now. And Star Wars has always had these types of real world parallels.

I do think there is validity to the idea that the future generation of Jedi will need to be wiser and vigilant to not fall into mistakes of the past, but being that Luke did try to instill in Rey the idea that the Jedi do not have a monopoly on The Force, I'd like to think she will evolve the idea of what a Jedi is, and not just strive to recreate the sterile, elitist, "government employee" version of the Jedi that we saw in the prequels.
 
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I don't agree at all that Ryan Johnson didn't embrace the fantasy elements of Star Wars. He did.

How? He cut down or de-emphazised nearly every fantastical element of the universe, he basically looked at that aspect as a trivial backdrop to the stuff he actually cared about, which was character study and commentary. There's even been times where he's talked about how "other people will fill in the background details", like he doesn't even give that side of it a second thought. He's not a worldbuilder, he's not a fantasy writer, he doesn't care about that aspect of Star Wars.

Honestly I wish they would have kept going with that idea about war between good and evil being cyclical and finding another path to bring balance to the universe. I think there was a great setup for it, and if you're asking me what I would have done with this movie I probably would have had Rey discover something in the Jedi texts that leads her down a journey that Kylo Ren would end up following that would be about the true nature of the force. That's what I would have done and I feel like that's what Rian Johnson was setting up.

I don't understand what you mean. The true nature of the Force? What would that be? And how was Rian setting it up? Also, where is this cyclical war thing coming from, when the galaxy had thousands of years of peace before the Empire took over? That just feels like tunnel vision with only the OT and ST in view, sort of like how Rian tried to make a big deal out of Rey Nobody and Broomboy even though the vast majority of Jedi were just random people and Luke was a unique anomaly.

The only thing TLJ seemed to set up, to me, is a more personal conflict between Rey and Kylo. with Kylo terrorizing the universe as an unhinged dictator and Rey opposing him while doing the whole Force Skype thing, until they end up having their final battle. I don't see anything about that direction that really dives into the fantasy aspect of Star Wars.
 
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How? He cut down or de-emphazised nearly every fantastical element of the universe, he basically looked at that aspect as a trivial backdrop to the stuff he actually cared about, which was character study and commentary. There's even been times where he's talked about how "other people will fill in the background details", like he doesn't even give that side of it a second thought. He's not a wordlbuilder, he's not a fantasy writer, he doesn't care about that aspect of Star Wars.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Yes he is primarily concerned with making a character study and such, but he is doing so within the realms of Science Fiction and equating what that means the world of Star Wars. He's growing the mythology. He's adding elements like who's funding these wars between the First Order in the Resistance and such. Last I saw in the movie we still had lots of fantastical creatures, lots of aliens, and an entire fight that took place with a hologram effectively. He's 100% toying with the realms of Science Fiction in the movie. Star Wars and every science fiction film ever made has always taken elements of our real world and put them in a science fiction based environment. This movie was no different.

Just by making the themes of your story more important then superficial things doesn't mean you're downplaying the science fiction elements of anything. That just means you're trying to make the story about something and not deliver the people empty calories.

I don't understand what you mean. The true nature of the Force? What would that be? And how was Rian setting it up?

The only thing TLJ seemed to set up, to me, is a more personal conflict between Rey and Kylo. with Kylo terrorizing the universe as an unhinged dictator and Rey opposing him while doing the whole Force Skype thing, until they end up having their final battle. I don't see anything about that direction that really dives into the fantasy aspect of Start Wars.

Both Luke and Kylo Ren talk to Ray at various points in the movie about this idea of breaking the wheel effectively. We get a brief history given to us about the battle between the Jedi and the Sith to this point as well as an understanding that the cost of war between factions is being fueled by the rich. The idea being presented here is the idea that the battle between good and evil is one large cycle. An endless one. Just taking on new faces. Also, the series always talks about bringing balance to the force, but what balance is a little nebulous. The Jedi believe it to be by taking out the Sith, but then Snoke has that monologue about when darkness rises the light comes to meet it. In other words eventually an opposing an equal force is going to cancel the other one out. So this comes back to my question of what does balance in the force truly mean? That's the theme I probably would have played with if I were doing the next movie instead of just making another basic Good vs Evil story.
 
The two are not mutually exclusive. Yes he is primarily concerned with making a character study and such, but he is doing so within the realms of Science Fiction and equating what that means the world of Star Wars. He's growing the mythology. He's adding elements like who's funding these wars between the First Order in the Resistance and such. Last I saw in the movie we still had lots of fantastical creatures, lots of aliens, and an entire fight that took place with a hologram effectively. He's 100% toying with the realms of Science Fiction in the movie. Star Wars and every science fiction film ever made has always taken elements of our real world and put them in a science fiction based environment. This movie was no different.

Just by making the themes of your story more important then superficial things doesn't mean you're downplaying the science fiction elements of anything. That just means you're trying to make the story about something and not deliver the people empty calories.

Aliens barely had any presence in TLJ. We had some cool creatures (well, the crystal foxes were cool, at any rate), but actual alien characters with human intelligence were almost nonexistent, aside from Yoda's single scene. And the closest thing to any kind of new culture we got to see was the Canto Bight casino, which was just a regular Earth casino.

That randomly inserted bit about two side's funding the war isn't world building, it's forced commentary with absolutely zero thought put into HOW it fits into the world, or why it matters in the context of the world. Like...why should Finn and Rose, or the audience, care that these random rich people are selling weapons to both sides? War profiteering is important to us in the real world because our world is dominated by capitalism and it means American companies, the supposed good guys, aren't as good as we might think. But who are these war profiteers in Star Wars, and why should we care that they aren't good people? What's one more group of mustache twirling villains in a galaxy dominated by the Empire and now the First Order? It's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Rian wants to communicate some message, and so his thought is "eh, the Story Group will have someone else figure out how it makes sense".


The hologram is the same thing. Luke just pulls it out of his butt out of nowhere because Rian wanted to subvert our expectations. A fantasy-first approach would be "here are the tools I'm going to give my hero, and these are the conflicts I will put them in and how they will resolve those conflicts based on the tools at their disposal". Yet Rian's approach is "this is the feeling I want to create in this specific scene, so I will give the hero this specific tool at this specific time so as to create the exact moment I'm going for".

Both Luke and Kylo Ren talk to Ray at various points in the movie about this idea of breaking the wheel effectively. We get a brief history given to us about the battle between the Jedi and the Sith to this point as well as an understanding that the cost of war between factions is being fueled by the rich. The idea being presented here is the idea that the battle between good and evil is one large cycle. An endless one. Just taking on new faces. Also, the series always talks about bringing balance to the force, but what balance is a little nebulous. The Jedi believe it to be by taking out the shift, but then Snoke has that monologue about when darkness rises the light comes to meet it. In other words eventually an opposing an equal force is going to cancel the other one out. So this comes back to my question of what does balance in the force truly mean? That's the theme I probably would have played with if I were doing the next movie instead of just making another basic Good vs Evil story.

But the war hasn't traditionally been fueled by the rich. It's fueled by the machinations of evil dark side users manipulating things from the shadows, with one particular dark side user rising above them all and entangling everyone in his web of deception. Yet in TLJ we learn absolutely nothing about the lore surrounding the Sith, how it relates to Snoke, or Kylo, or Vader's voice that Kylo heard in his head throughout TFA. Rian doesn't care about it, resulting in RoS playing catch-up.

And again, I'm not sure where this cycle idea comes from, since the galaxy was at peace for thousands of years before the rise of the Empire. It was never about a cycle, it was about restoring an ideal. It's a "before the dark times" story. You know, like Lord of the Rings, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, The Wheel of Time, The Dark Tower, Avatar: The Last Airbender, The Dark Crystal, etc. It's a standard fantasy trope.

And restoring balance is simple: eliminate the dark side. TLJ never implies that balance is anything other than that. The dark side is a bad thing, the Jedi were flawed in many ways but they were never presented as being flawed for their refusal to embrace the dark side.

What do you think balance should mean? Are you saying a health balance is to murder one person for every one person you save? Like, how can balance be anything other than the elimination of the corruptive side of the Force that drives people to become self-centered murderers?
 
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Aliens barely had any presence in TLJ. We had some cool creatures, but actual alien characters with human intelligence were almost nonexistent, aside from Yoda's single scene. The closest thing to any kind of new culture we got to see was the Canto Bight casino, which was just a regular Earth casino.

That randomly inserted bit about two side's funding the war isn't world building, it's forced commentary with absolutely zero thought put into HOW it fits into the world, or what it matters in the context of the world. Like...why should Finn and rose care about that people are selling weapons to both sides? War profiteering is important to us in the real world because our world is dominated by capitalism and it means American companies, the supposed good guys, aren't as good as we might think. But who are these war profiteers in Star Wars, and why should we care that they aren't good people? What's one more group of mustache twirling villains in a galaxy dominated by the Empire and now the First Order? It's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Rian wants to communicate some message, and so his thought is "eh, the Story Group will have someone else figure out how it makes sense".


Most of the main characters in TROS we're human too. Abrams downplayed the sci-fi!!! Seriously, outside of the dude who hacked C3PO, name me the alien cast of the last one? How extensive were their roles? It's not like guys like Chewbacca had extensive roles in this movie either. So why is it okay for JJ Abrams to not have many alien main characters, but somehow Rian Johnson is a jerk for it?

As for your other point, I don't see how it's not world building. He's adding context to the world, aka building on the existing foundation. Aka world building. I also don't see how it didn't fit into that works. Are you saying there aren't rich money people in the galaxy? If we can have underground gangsters that are slug monsters, then why can't we have a bunch of rich people that are war profiteers?


The hologram is the same thing. Luke just pulls it out of his butt out of nowhere because Rian wanted to subvert our expectations. A fantasy-first approach would be "here are the tools I'm going to give my hero, and these are the conflicts I will put them in and how they will resolve those conflicts based on the tools at their disposal". Yet Rian's approach is "this is the feeling I want to create in this specific scene, so I will give the hero this specific tool at this specific time so as to create the exact moment I'm going for".

The hologram wasn't about subversion. That's a buzz word by people who want to misrepresent the movie. It was an extension of the ''Skype'' power used all throughout the movie and was a reasonable way for Luke to handle the situation. Again it's building on the force abilities. I get many didn't like it, but it works for me. I don't see this is somehow taking the science-fiction away from anything.


And restoring balance is simple: eliminate the dark side. TLJ never implies that balance is anything other than that. The dark side is a bad thing, the Jedi were flawed in many ways but they were never presented as being flawed for their refusal to embrace the dark side.

What do you think balance should mean? Are you saying a health balance is to murder one person for every one person you save? Like, how can balance be anything other than the elimination of the corruptive side of the Force that drives people to become self-centered murderers?

Balance to me doesn't mean destroying one thing but not another. Balance means coexisting in harmony. In regards to your example about murderers and such, you're never going to completely eliminate bad people. I don't off hand know how I would have portrayed that idea, but it's what I would explore. Again, I see it as duality. If light rises to meet darkness, then the opposite must be true. So what's in the middle? That's something I would have found more interesting and original. Just throwing in Palpatine for the same old shtick we've seen didn't work. There was nothing new to say about Star Wars in ROS. At least this concept would have offered something new.
 
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Most of the main characters in TROS we're human too. Abrams downplayed the sci-fi!!! Seriously, outside of the dude who hacked C3PO, name me the alien cast of the last one? How extensive were their roles? It's not like guys like Chewbacca had extensive roles in this movie either. So why is it okay for JJ Abrams to not have many alien main characters, but somehow Rian Johnson is a jerk for it?

Abrams did downplay the science fiction and fantasy of Star Wars, if you compare his films to Lucas's films. But aliens were still much more prominant than in TLJ. And yeah, I consider it a point in J.J.'s favor that he introduced at least one named alien character in each of his Star Wars movies, whereas Rian introduced none.

As for your other point, I don't see how it's not world building. He's adding context to the world, aka building on the existing foundation. Aka world building. I also don't see how it didn't fit into that works. Are you saying there aren't rich money people on the galaxy? If we can have underground gangsters that are slug monsters, then why can't we have a bunch of rich people?

Except it doesn't build on the world. Scummy rich people have existed in Star Wars at least as far back as The Phantom Menace. Are you forgetting that the conflict in that movie involved a scummy business conglomeration?

Nothing about Canto Bight enhances the science fiction or fantasy of Star Wars. It's just a casino with some rich people gambling.


The hologram wasn't about subversion. That's a buzz word by people who want to misrepresent the movie. It was an extension of the ''Skype'' power used all throughout the movie and was a reasonable way for Luke to handle the situation. Again it's building on the force abilities. I get many didn't like it, but it works for me. I don't see this is somehow taking the science-fiction away from anything.

There are a million reasonable ways Luke could have handled the situation. Rian didn't have to write it that specific way. And even if he did, he could have introduced the concept of Force Projecting more directly, in a way that wasn't designed to surprise the audience. Maybe have Luke try to teach it to Rey, but it ends up being to difficult for her. Rian clearly wanted that surprise factor.


Balance to me doesn't mean destroying one thing but not another. Balance means coexisting in harmony. In regards to your example about murderers and such, you're never going to completely eliminate bad people. I don't off hand know how I would have portrayed that idea, but it's what I would explore. Again, I see it as duality. If light rises to meet darkness, then the opposite must be true. So what's in the middle? That's something I would have found more interesting and original. Just throwing in Palpatine for the same old shtick we've seen didn't work. There was nothing new to say about Star Wars in ROS. At least this concept would have offered something new.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. The middle? Isn't that just like the whole "selling weapons to both sides" thing that the movie was trying to condemn?

"The Light rises to meet darkness" was just Rian's hamfisted way of trying to explain why Rey Nobody was conveniently so powerful. But it doesn't imply that the opposite is true, the Jedi outnumbered the Sith for thousands of years and we didn't see thousands of evil people randomly becoming strong in the Force.
 
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Abrams did downplay the science fiction and fantasy of Star Wars, if you compare his films to Lucas's films. But aliens were still much more prominant than in TLJ. And yeah, I consider it a point in J.J.'s favor that he introduced at least one named alien character in each of his Star Wars movies, whereas Rian introduced none.



Except it doesn't build on the world. Scummy rich people have existed in Star Wars at least as far back as The Phantom Menace. Are you forgetting that the conflict in that movie was inititated (Sith Lords aside) by a scummy business congolmeration?

Nothing about Canto Bight enhances the science fiction or fantasy of Star Wars. It's just a casino with some rich people gambling.




There are a million reasonable ways Luke could have handled the situation. Rian didn't have to write it that specific way. And even if he did, he could have introduced the concept of Force Projecting more directly, in a way that wasn't designed to surprise the audience. Rian clearly wanted that surprise factor.




I really don't understand what you're getting at here. The middle? Isn't that just like the whole "selling weapons to both sides" thing that the movie was trying to condemn?

"The Light rises to meet darkness" was just Rian's hamfisted way of trying to explain why Rey Nobody was conveniently so powerful. But it doesn't imply that the opposite is true, the Jedi outnumbered the Sith for thousands of years and we didn't see thousands of evil people randomly becoming strong in the Force.

I don't get what is not clear about what I am saying. See this is what I'm getting from this conversation in general. I'm not really going to bullet point reply to all your issues because all of it really stem from one thing at its core: Any inherent argument I'm making towards the quality of something in the movie you're just writing off as nonsensical or like Rian Johnson was putting no effort into the movie because you didn't like the movie or like his ideas. We've gotten into many of these back and forth and I've consistently explained to you why these ideas have merit, what they mean, and you always offer me the same type of explanation that just amounts to you don't want to accept what I'm saying. Again, if you don't like the movie or what Rian Johnson was doing, that's fine cuz you're entitled to your opinion as I'm entitled to mine. I'm not saying you have to like the movie or anything. But I've already answered like all these questions. I've explained why the darkness rises and the light to meet it idea is a developed idea, I've explained the war commentary and why I think it's intelligent series, I've explained all that. It's all in the prior posts above.

Also, even if I were to entertain your notion that these introduced ideas have no meeting, isn't the point of a sequel to further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie? Just saying. Before I get the reply that ''tell that to Rian Johnson because he did not continue the threads JJ Abrams introduced'' cuz I also don't agree with that notion. I think he did further develop those ideas, just not in the way people thought he was going to.
 
I don't get what is not clear about what I am saying. See this is what I'm getting from this conversation in general. I'm not really going to bullet point reply to all your issues because all of it really stem from one thing at its core: Any inherent argument I'm making towards the quality of something in the movie you're just writing off as nonsensical or like Rian Johnson was putting no effort into the movie because you didn't like the movie or like his ideas. We've gotten into many of these back and forth and I've consistently explained to you why these ideas have merit, what they mean, and you always offer me the same type of explanation that just amounts to you don't want to accept what I'm saying. Again, if you don't like the movie or what Rian Johnson was doing, that's fine cuz you're entitled to your opinion as I'm entitled to mine. I'm not saying you have to like the movie or anything. But I've already answered like all these questions. I've explained why the darkness rises and the light to meet it idea is a developed idea, I've explained the war commentary and why I think it's intelligent series, I've explained all that. It's all in the prior posts above.

Also, even if I were to entertain your notion that these introduced ideas have no meeting, isn't the point of a sequel to further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie? Just saying.

I never said Rian put no effort into the movie. Obviously he put a lot of effort into getting his vision of Luke and Kylo onto the screen and really digging into those characters. I just think he put no effort into the fantasy aspect of Star Wars.

And I don't see how I'm just "not accepting" what you're saying. I've given very clear reasons why ideas like "the endless cycle of light and darkness" and "rich people selling weapons to both sides" are very poor attempts at worldbuilding that either do not fit with the Star Wars universe (in the former's case) or add nothing new to the universe (in the latter's case). Star Wars isn't about an endless cycle, it is about restoring a fallen ideal that had existed for thousands of years. And evil businesses have existed since Episode 1. If you watch all 9 episodes in order, you will see an evil business in the very first scene of the saga, only to have the 8th movie randomly treat evil businesses as though they are this big new surprise and as though their scummy ethics have significance in the current context.


Also, even if I were to entertain your notion that these introduced ideas have no meeting, isn't the point of a sequel to further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie? Just saying.

That's exactly what J.J. did: he developed the ideas he'd established in TFA that Rian tossed aside as unimportant in TLJ. The idea of Rey having a special origin, the idea of there being more to Snoke and Kylo's obsession with Vader than meets the eye, the idea that Luke had been trying to seek some sort of ancient information, the idea that one of the characters is a former Stormtrooper, these are all really cool ideas that TLJ just dropped, while RoS followed up on all of them.
 
I never said Rian put no effort into the movie. Obviously he put a lot of effort into getting his vision of Luke and Kylo onto the screen and really digging into those characters. I just think he put no effort into the fantasy aspect of Star Wars.

And I don't see how I'm just "not accepting" what you're saying. I've given very clear reasons why ideas like "the endless cycle of light and darkness" and "rich people selling weapons to both sides" are very poor attempts at worldbuilding that either do not fit with the Star Wars universe (in the former's case) or add nothing new to the universe (in the latter's case). Star Wars isn't about an endless cycle, it is about restoring a fallen ideal that had existed for thousands of years. And evil businesses have existed since Episode 1. If you watch all 9 episodes in order, you will see an evil business in the very first scene of the saga, only to have the 8th movie randomly treat evil businesses as though they are this big new surprise and as though their scummy ethics have significance in the current context.

It's an endless cycle. I have explained these threads and why they're there. I'm not going to keep recycling the same posts. My replies to your points are in the various responses I've already made.


That's exactly what J.J. did: he developed the ideas he'd established in TFA that Rian tossed aside as unimportant in TLJ. The idea of Rey having a special origin, the idea of there being more to Snoke and Kylo's obsession with Vader than meets the eye, the idea that Luke had been trying to seek some sort of ancient information, the idea that one of the characters is a former Stormtrooper, these are all really cool ideas that TLJ just dropped, while RoS followed up on all of them.

Again, Johnson didn't drop these. He just took them in other directions than popular theories. That's not the same thing. Johnson geared those plot threads in directions consistent with the theme of his movie. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether you like what he did or not is up to you, much like how it was up to Abrams in the end on how to continue those threads in his movie. I don't begrudge Abrams taking the story a different direction at all. I just judged the product he gave me, which I thought sucked.

There is a YouTube channel called Just Write that has done a few videos on both the Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker, and I would encourage people to watch those videos to get a comprehensive understanding on the decisions Rian Johnson made in his movie (by showing how the plot lines answer the 7 basic questions of storytelling) and why the Rise of Skywalker didn't work for me. I've been in enough of these debates about where Johnson took the story and how he built off JJ Abrams plot threads from his first movie, and I'm not going to do a bullet point list in this post either.

EDIT - I would also recommend the essays on The Last Jedi and the more recent essay he made about JJ Abrams by Film Crit Hulk. He has great write ups about all the newer Star Wars movies which help explain why I much prefer the vision of Rian Johnson. Warning though, they're long. Very long.
 
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It's an endless cycle.

How is over a thousand generations of peace an endless cycle? That's, like, tens of thousand of years. Seems like a great track record to me.

Again, Johnson didn't drop these. He just took them in other directions than popular theories. That's not the same thing.

Then from that perspective, J.J. didn't drop Rian's plot threads either, he just took them in directions that TLJ fans didn't like. Namely, in the more fantastical directions he had in mind in the first place.
 
I wonder what proportion of the audience is happy with both JJ and Rian’s films and the sequel trilogy as a whole.
 
How is over a thousand generations of peace an endless cycle? That's, like, tens of thousand of years. Seems like a great track record to me.



Then from that perspective, J.J. didn't drop Rian's plot threads either, he just took them in directions that TLJ fans didn't like. Namely, in the more fantastical directions he had in mind in the first place.

I said that he did in my post. Did you read my posts carefully? I clearly said I don't begrudge JJ taking the story another direction, but that his ideas didn't work for me and I thought the movie sucked. So you're either not reading my posts carefully or making a redundant point for no reason.
 
I wonder what proportion of the audience is happy with both JJ and Rian’s films and the sequel trilogy as a whole.

Happy is a relative term i think.
I can honestly say that im fine with them all, i can enjoy and watch them...and yeah im happy when i watch them.
I did like the sequel trilogy despite tons of wasted potential...i just love star wars through good and bad.
 
I said that he did in my post. Did you read my posts carefully? I clearly said I don't begrudge JJ taking the story another direction, but that his ideas didn't work for me and I thought the movie sucked. So you're either not reading my posts carefully or making a redundant point for no reason.

Okay, but when you said:

Also, even if I were to entertain your notion that these introduced ideas have no meeting, isn't the point of a sequel to further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie? Just saying. Before I get the reply that ''tell that to Rian Johnson because he did not continue the threads JJ Abrams introduced'' cuz I also don't agree with that notion. I think he did further develop those ideas, just not in the way people thought he was going to.

It sounds like you're implying that J.J. didn't "further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie". Is that not what you meant?
 
Happy is a relative term i think.
I can honestly say that im fine with them all, i can enjoy and watch them...and yeah im happy when i watch them.
I did like the sequel trilogy despite tons of wasted potential...i just love star wars through good and bad.
That sounds pretty happy to me mate. I don’t mean it in any complex way, just generally happy with what we got and fine with both approaches of the 2 directors. Thanks for the input. I would love to know how much of the wider audience was in the same boat.

It seems there is a big clash between fans of what JJ did and what Rian did, but for me the overall result is a bit of a mess and a hype-killer. I can still enjoy it all (I can enjoy the prequels too) but it’s way beneath what it could have been - I’ve thought that about all Star Wars films though since the OT.
 
I can more or less enjoy the ST as a whole now. It's just annoying how TLJ fans seem completely unwilling to acknowledge what it was about Star Wars that got many people excited, and why TFA was such a crowd pleaser and why a straightforward followup on its setups would have continued to please the crowds.
 
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Okay, but when you said:



It sounds like you're implying that J.J. didn't "further develop ideas that were introduced but not necessarily completed in another movie". Is that not what you meant?

Again, please read what I write. I implied that he continued the story how he wanted. The part you're quoting was from a different point you made I was replying to. Posts like this make me think you're not reading carefully
 
I can still enjoy it all (I can enjoy the prequels too) but it’s way beneath what it could have been - I’ve thought that about all Star Wars films though since the OT.

That to me is it.
I think in the end Star Wars universe that Lucas created alone in the OT, was way too big for him to handle and left a lot of potential behind.

I think that is the nature of such a limitless universe.
You can literally do anything with star wars, create the strangest creatures, belief systems, rules, worlds...and it would fit.

That is why i think it is impossible to create something that uses all the potential.
I always find myself watching the OT and think about what could have been, how this or that could have been better.
And that is how it continued into the Prequels and the sequels.

I see the potential in even the worst decision so im quite easy to please since to me there is never anything broken or so.

Im "happy" with how ROS ended because i can see Rey building up the jedi again, Finn revealing being force sensitive and so on.
But if i could, i would change it all in a heartbeat where i would go a bit more into the legends direction after TFA.
So yeah im still "happy" but not over the top happy.
 
I can more or less enjoy the ST as a whole now. It's just annoying how TLJ fans seem completely unwilling to acknowledge what it was about Star Wars that got many people excited, and why TFA was such a crowd pleaser and why a straightforward followup on its setups would have continued to please the crowds.

I'm sorry, I find this very condescending. It's not that I don't get why people like the first movie, but you're acting like only you guys know what's good for Star Wars that anybody who likes Rian Johnson's work is just a complete idiot. Who somehow doesn't understand that it was a betrayal of Star Wars. I get that some fans feel that way, but what this amounts to is a disagreement. It's not that either side doesn't understand the other, posts like this make me think of you don't understand why people like Rian Johnson's movie and you just want to dismiss people who do as if they're dumb or somehow not real fans. I don't treat people who like the JJ Abrams movies like they're dumb. Though I hated his movies. I like to engage intelligently on why I think his movies are shallow and don't contribute anything to the series. But if you like them that's up to you. It's called an opinion.

Why can't we just debate whether or not a movie was good? Why do we have to act like one side or the other are morons? Why can't we have civil discussions and exchange ideas on why we see things differently without insulting people? Post like this make me angry. Seriously, every time I see a discussion go down this route I just want to slap people. Fans need to learn common courtesy. Seriously, we can both be fans and like different things. That's called life. This kind of crap is why I hate discussions on Star Wars anymore.

End rant
 
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Again, please read what I write. I implied that he continued the story how he wanted. The part you're quoting was from a different point you made I was replying to. Posts like this make me think you're not reading carefully

Or maybe you could try being more clear with your words.

You were replying to my question about how J.J. could follow up on the idea of "the light rising to meet the darkness" and it sounded like you were throwing shade at J.J. for not developing that idea. Why is it okay for Rian to do nothing to develop Snoke and Vader's helmet and the scheming of the dark side, but it's bad when J.J. doesn't develop the idea of "balancing the Force"? Personally I consider the former to be an infinitely more interesting plot direction.
 

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