Justice League Real Talk - Where does the DCEU go from here? - Part 1

[ludovica]

Would rather have a Latino Catwoman and Asian Nightwing.

That would be fine.
Also the inverse would work.

 

[fancyarcher]

No one is gonna take a gamble on Whedon right now. His business partners are sweating bullets. After the things his ex wife said, in this current climate, anyone in business with Whedon is just waiting for that second shoe to drop.

Nah! Whedon will be fine, unless any actual other serious "allegations" come forward, which so far hasn't happened.

 

[ludovica]

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/do...-rotten-tomatoes-c-robert-cargill-1201898270/

Even Marvel writer suspecting RT bias now.

He's just saying that withholding the score of JL this long set a bad precedent, he's not implying anything else.

 

[Loki882]

Honestly I haven't heard much about Whedon's ex and her allegation (outside of a few minor fansites) in awhile. I feel like most people seem to have moved past that already.

 

[Cats]

Maybe you can not totally ignore the people who have already given you answers as to why some scores are rotten and others fresh. That would be the grown up thing to do.

Enlighten me as to how I've "ignored" them? This is the first time I've ever brought up the subject, and there was that tweet from a reviewer complaining about his score getting changed, so it's a legit topic of discussion.

 

[Boom]

Warner Brothers is in such a ****** spot.

On one hand, they're seeing how successful Marvel has been with their properties, and how much money they're raking in because of it. WB knows it is sitting on a similar goldmine. There is nothing about the DC IPs that make them inherently less valuable than the Marvel IPs.

On the other hand, I just don't know how they could possibly proceed with the DCEU in the short term.

 

[Cats]

He's just saying that withholding the score of JL this long set a bad precedent, he's not implying anything else.

Go on reading..

I’ve been in these two industries altogether for going on twenty years now. And I’ve seen shady things behind the scenes in both the movie business and journalism. So when something like this happens, it often makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The only way an aggregator like this works is if it is entirely impartial. Rotten Tomatoes isn’t a cute gimmick anymore.

I'm not implying anything, but I'd sure like to know what Robert Cargill has seen.

 

[MadVillainy]

Warner Brothers is in such a ****** spot.

On one hand, they're seeing how successful Marvel has been with their properties, and how much money they're raking in because of it. WB knows it is sitting on a similar goldmine. There is nothing about the DC IPs that make them inherently less valuable than the Marvel IPs.

On the other hand, I just don't know how they could possibly proceed with the DCEU in the short term.

I'd even say DC IPs are more valuable at least in theory

 

[technobot]

They must realize they've damaged their brand. It might thrill a couple random people that vocal posters on the SHH forums LOVE this movie, but the general audience has spoken. Zack Snyder/WB has had three cracks at this "Superman Trilogy" and the verdict is in after JL, people don't like it.

I don't think we should underestimate the fact that as Boom had said, WB knows it *was* sitting on a goldmine. Losing 50 million or making 100 million on a property this valuable washes the same: an abject failure. All that money left on the table. It might be big money to us 99%ers, but there's many mouths to feed in a project this large, and the people who decide to make these movies have expectations. Mind you they only have themselves to blame...

There's also the implications of "if we keep churning out garbage, does the brand become a joke? Is it already a joke?" I keep using a sports analogy, but you do have some stars to build around moving forward with a soft reboot or loose continuity (we'll just ignore the trash that came before). As much as I thought the movie was generic, uninspired drek, I don't blame the actors. You can build a winning team around Gadot, Cavill, and Momoa for that matter. I though Fisher and Miller were fine, it's the direction/screenplay/dialogue/humour/amalgam-2-in-1-film that bothered me. Affleck has to and should go, he knows the team sucks and it's obvious he stopped trying.

While everyone is entitled to their opinions, I do find it hilarious that a vocal minority (is it a minority) on this and other boards hails JL as a disappointment, a mess, but still 7-8 /10! And these same people deride Marvel for its kid-friendly generic nonsense, but in the next breath praise this movie. IMO Marvel MCU's worst movies run laps around JL, take your pick. I'm harsher with the DCEU because they were my favourites growing up and they've been reduced to the butt end of yet another joke. There's no magic Snyder cut that will save this movie or change people's minds, there's no sinister conspiracy to hold the DCEU down, other than the conspiracy that exists in some poster's minds. While they may love JL, the world at large didn't.

I screamed for "blow it up, start over again" but maybe it's as simple as "start with 1 good movie". Maybe WW can be that foundation.

 

[ludovica]

Go on reading..

I'm not implying anything, but I'd sure like to know what Robert Cargill has seen.

You go on reading. He is perfectly clear in making his point.
What you cited is referencing other (unnamed) companies and refers to the fact that questionable practices (like withholding the RT score) are a slippery slope: he points the finger to no one singularly, but to the whole of Hollywood as prone to twisting and throwing smoke screens.

 

[2kt09]

I'd even say DC IPs are more valuable at least in theory

Outside of the trinity, not really, and even then they will perpetually be affiliated with nostalgia or emulating Marvel.

 

[GreenKToo]

If they would stop interfering and thinking they know best, then they would have success.
It's not rocket science.

A) hire a proven director that has had several successes, not just one.
B) Give him what he wants.
C) hire a proven scribe with several successes, not just one or two.
D) stay out of the way.
E) listen to the fans and public, give them what they want. Don't try to do it last minute with reshoots, it mucks it up.
F)and for the love of god, stop filming three or four hours of footage and cutting it down to something people can't follow.

 

[MadVillainy]

Outside of the trinity, not really, and even then they will perpetually be affiliated with nostalgia or emulating Marvel.

Nah I dont think that's true. I think all the main 6-7 had huge cinematic potential. Then something like Suicide Squad has/had huge potential. I mean even sidekick characters like Nightwing, Batgirl, Supergirl, even Robin have potential. Villains like The Joker, Catwoman have potential. There's a New Gods movie.

And beyond that DC characters were just better ingrained in pop culture which made them more valuable potentially. DC/WB just took long to leap so the MCU beat them and get their characters popping. Then we DC decided to leap they crashed head first into some rocks

 

[Mani-Man]

If they would stop interfering and thinking they know best, then they would have success.
It's not rocket science.

A) hire a proven director that has had several successes, not just one.
B) Give him what he wants.
C) hire a proven scribe with several successes, not just one or two.
D) stay out of the way.
E) listen to the fans and public, give them what they want. Don't try to do it last minute with reshoots, it mucks it up.
F)and for the love of god, stop filming three or four hours of footage and cutting it down to something people can't follow.

Yeah, easy solution on paper.
But you dont even need A-F...its enough to take D and E.

 

[MadVillainy]

I mean it's easy for us to say stay out of the way, but remember what some good-great directors tried to do with different comic characters?

Aronofsky's Batman: Year One and The Wolverine
JJ Abrams' Superman
Whedon's Wonder Woman

Executive meddling can be a good thing

 

[Longshot777]

They must realize they've damaged their brand. It might thrill a couple random people that vocal posters on the SHH forums LOVE this movie, but the general audience has spoken. Zack Snyder/WB has had three cracks at this "Superman Trilogy" and the verdict is in after JL, people don't like it.

I don't think we should underestimate the fact that as Boom had said, WB knows it *was* sitting on a goldmine. Losing 50 million or making 100 million on a property this valuable washes the same: an abject failure. All that money left on the table. It might be big money to us 99%ers, but there's many mouths to feed in a project this large, and the people who decide to make these movies have expectations. Mind you they only have themselves to blame...

There's also the implications of "if we keep churning out garbage, does the brand become a joke? Is it already a joke?" I keep using a sports analogy, but you do have some stars to build around moving forward with a soft reboot or loose continuity (we'll just ignore the trash that came before). As much as I thought the movie was generic, uninspired drek, I don't blame the actors. You can build a winning team around Gadot, Cavill, and Momoa for that matter. I though Fisher and Miller were fine, it's the direction/screenplay/dialogue/humour/amalgam-2-in-1-film that bothered me. Affleck has to and should go, he knows the team sucks and it's obvious he stopped trying.

While everyone is entitled to their opinions, I do find it hilarious that a vocal minority (is it a minority) on this and other boards hails JL as a disappointment, a mess, but still 7-8 /10! And these same people deride Marvel for its kid-friendly generic nonsense, but in the next breath praise this movie. IMO Marvel MCU's worst movies run laps around JL, take your pick. I'm harsher with the DCEU because they were my favourites growing up and they've been reduced to the butt end of yet another joke. There's no magic Snyder cut that will save this movie or change people's minds, there's no sinister conspiracy to hold the DCEU down, other than the conspiracy that exists in some poster's minds. While they may love JL, the world at large didn't.

I screamed for "blow it up, start over again" but maybe it's as simple as "start with 1 good movie". Maybe WW can be that foundation.

Yeah but WW is still part of that Snyderverse,

So you can't blow it all up. If you do WW2 in a new universe with Gal Gadot it will just confuse the GA.

JL has corrected the characters for the people who did not like MOS and BVS and now that Snyder is gone, a new direction is a good start BUT same universe.

It will be a mistake if they reboot the Universe.

The GA still love the characters in JL so just change the direction and not the continuity.

Also trim the budget too.

How come Marvel spends less money than DC but yet Marvel's FX looks more realistic than DC???

DC should spend less like Marvel and their profits will come in.

 

[_Superman_]

I mean it's easy for us to say stay out of the way, but remember what some good-great directors tried to do with different comic characters?

Aronofsky's Batman: Year One and The Wolverine
JJ Abrams' Superman
Whedon's Wonder Woman

Executive meddling can be a good thing

Abram's Superman would've been good and more inline with the comics than you think.

 

[InCali]

Maybe I'm just being naive but there HAS to be a way to control the budgets on these things. There has to be a way where these movies dont NEED 700-800 mill to break even right? I looked up Thor Ragnarok's budget and it was UNDER 200 MILL. How is it Marvel's films cost less and they probably use the same amount of CGI and pay similar salaries to their actors? They need the budgets for these movies to about 150-180 mill MAX and get directors who can be creative within those boundaries. That way they'd only need 400-500 mill to break even and turn profit.

I'll also bet that Disney's costs are really lower than what they report because they do so much of their work in house. Paying your own subsidiary isn't the same as paying an outside vendor.

I tend to agree. Something like Avengers is going to cost more, but studios have to be smart about how they spend their money. All of us should really.....

 

[InCali]

Warner Brothers is in such a ****** spot.

On one hand, they're seeing how successful Marvel has been with their properties, and how much money they're raking in because of it. WB knows it is sitting on a similar goldmine. There is nothing about the DC IPs that make them inherently less valuable than the Marvel IPs.

On the other hand, I just don't know how they could possibly proceed with the DCEU in the short term.

Just make a good BM, SM, WW, and AM movie and things will start to come together. For now, run, do not walk, away from team ups. The only possible exceptions might be a limited role, but I can't think of how that would work.

 

[MbJ]

Warner Brothers is in such a ****** spot.

On one hand, they're seeing how successful Marvel has been with their properties, and how much money they're raking in because of it. WB knows it is sitting on a similar goldmine. There is nothing about the DC IPs that make them inherently less valuable than the Marvel IPs.

On the other hand, I just don't know how they could possibly proceed with the DCEU in the short term.

Someone on Twitter summed it up as Marvel taking nobodies and turning them into icons, while DC already has icons and they still can't compete.

 

[semper]

I'd even say DC IPs are more valuable at least in theory

I don't actually believe this at all. Superman may be the single most overrated IP out there. It was maybe top dog from World War 2 to the first few Chris Reeves films, but it no longer connects with people on the same level anymore, which is why the films struggle and they don't even feel the need to put Cavill's Superman in the marketing (even though everyone knows he's coming back). It's valuable, but Spiderman is bigger.

Batman (and his family + villains like Joker) is the crown jewel of DC IP's, and is as valuable as anything Marvel has, but beyond that, I think Marvel probably now destroys DC in the value of it's IP's. Wonder Woman has only just begun to show the potential of her IP value with Patty Jenkins movie, but for years, was more a figurehead than an IP that generated any serious revenue. I can easily see Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) becoming just as valuable an IP when her movie comes out, and she is nowhere as well known to the public as Wonder Woman has been for her entire history.

Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, Green Arrow don't feel like they have the same currency as Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Guardians Of The Galaxy. Not to mention X-Men, Deadpool and Fantastic Four (which will become a huge IP when the rights revert back to Marvel and they do it correctly).

DC's characters a designed to be iconic/God-like, but i think in today's market, Marvel's charcters resonate more and hold more value as IP's. Batman is the only one I'd argue has more value than any single Marvel IP. And it's still arguable.

 

[JOE]

Someone on Twitter summed it up as Marvel taking nobodies and turning them into icons, while DC already has icons and they still can't compete.

Gal Gadot wasn't as big as she is now before BvS. I'd argue she gained popularity with the role, same as Cavil.

 

[Iceman]

Warner Brothers is in such a ****** spot.

On one hand, they're seeing how successful Marvel has been with their properties, and how much money they're raking in because of it. WB knows it is sitting on a similar goldmine. There is nothing about the DC IPs that make them inherently less valuable than the Marvel IPs.

Nothing.

On the other hand, I just don't know how they could possibly proceed with the DCEU in the short term.

Just let the projects already far enough in motion complete and push forward with WW2. Let things lie for a while. Hire some execs with brains and let them plan with Johns if he's up to it and a team of top directors and stop rushing to the endgame before the setup.

 

[JOE]

The 13 month drought isn't going to help either. The DCeU was just starting to regain the GA's trust with Wonder Woman, then they crush it with JL and make us wait 13 months for Aquaman? I don't know who's calling the shots at WB, but I'd like to buy whatever they're on.

 

[spider-neil]

WB should have picked one of two paths

A) The Magnificent Seven/7 Samurai path.
Have no build up whatsoever and introduction EVERYONE in one movie.

B) The MCU path
Slow build up with the start players getting their own movie in the build-up to the movie

WB did a mix of both to disastrous results.
If they had done 'A' you would have had the instant impact of the team coming together with no previous movie to influence the general audience one way or the other.

If they had done 'B' that would have pushed out JL by years but movies like BVS wouldn't feel so stuffed and rushed.

The DCEU was half arsed and now WB are paying the price.