Reintroducing Superman: An Open Discussion

[The Democrat]

I don't really get the comparison to Citizen Kane at all to be honest. Granted I suppose there is a very slim character association. I think what we got in Returns was a movie about a man finding that he's not the center of the universe but rather simply an actor in it. Which in it's own right would have been great but that theme became ultimately obscured by the fact that he never learned that lesson and was roundly applauded as the savior of humanity. It's as if everything Lex has said and thought about him was actually true. He see's arrogance in Superman and Superman lived up to that vision. There was no humility in his character. "I am the savior" was pretty much it.

 

[X Knight]

I don't really get the comparison to Citizen Kane at all to be honest. Granted I suppose there is a very slim character association. I think what we got in Returns was a movie about a man finding that he's not the center of the universe but rather simply an actor in it. Which in it's own right would have been great but that theme became ultimately obscured by the fact that he never learned that lesson and was roundly applauded as the savior of humanity. It's as if everything Lex has said and thought about him was actually true. He see's arrogance in Superman and Superman lived up to that vision. There was no humility in his character. "I am the savior" was pretty much it.

very true!!

 

[Showtime]

Lois was married to that guy right? Oh well. Still dumb having a boy friend since she rarely dates and when she do its Clark/Superman.

You don't read the comics I take it?

 

[Fresh Prince]

I don't really get the comparison to Citizen Kane at all to be honest. Granted I suppose there is a very slim character association. I think what we got in Returns was a movie about a man finding that he's not the center of the universe but rather simply an actor in it. Which in it's own right would have been great but that theme became ultimately obscured by the fact that he never learned that lesson and was roundly applauded as the savior of humanity. It's as if everything Lex has said and thought about him was actually true. He see's arrogance in Superman and Superman lived up to that vision. There was no humility in his character. "I am the savior" was pretty much it.

True but isn't he ultimately the saviour in the comics? And Superman not an arrogant guy he saves people cause he loves doing it.

 

[M.O.Steel]

but in the movie, it was depicted as him saying they are crying for him, which is very much against what you said, and the character in the comics.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

but in the movie, it was depicted as him saying they are crying for him, which is very much against what you said, and the character in the comics.

I didnt think it came accross as that at all, he was just showing Lois that the world DID need a saviour, and he wanted to be that saviour because he was the only one who had the power to be. Not arrogance, just a strong will to help people, just like in the comics.

He was also showing Lois how hard it can be being Superman.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Yeah, he wasn't crying about it. He's the only one that can hear people asking for help. It's his responsibility.

 

[The Democrat]

But thats a very narrow, very recent view of Superman based largely on the concept proposed in the Five for Fighting song. If it was meant to be less of a boast and more of a clarification of purpose than it was shoddily displayed in the story and film. Thematically it exists as the sole purpose and depiction of Superman in all the live action films starting with Superman: The Movie. In Superman Returns it was the first time that Superman blatantly revealed his not only knowledge of but acceptance as the savior of humanity. Jor El exists largely as the voice of God speaking to Christ and Superman ultimately has accepted his role as the messiah. It's heavy handed and not really an aspect of Superman.

I believe that it is this very depiction of the character that makes him unidentifiable. There is no conflict with in him. There is no tension or relate able connections. Superman as a character is constantly at odds with his alien and human heritage. He is the great immigrant, existing in a world where he isn't necessarily wanted and is seen, at least initially, as an unwanted figure in the world, regardless of whether he does good or not. Suspicion of his power. Suspicion of intentions. But on a personal level he does not see himself as something more than a man who see's things wrong in the world, has the ability to correct some of them and chooses to actually act on that ability. He doesn't do it because he is a extraterrestrial messiah sent by his father from the heavens to save humanity from themselves he does it because he can't live with himself if he doesn't.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

But thats a very narrow, very recent view of Superman based largely on the concept proposed in the Five for Fighting song. If it was meant to be less of a boast and more of a clarification of purpose than it was shoddily displayed in the story and film. Thematically it exists as the sole purpose and depiction of Superman in all the live action films starting with Superman: The Movie. In Superman Returns it was the first time that Superman blatantly revealed his not only knowledge of but acceptance as the savior of humanity. Jor El exists largely as the voice of God speaking to Christ and Superman ultimately has accepted his role as the messiah. It's heavy handed and not really an aspect of Superman. .

That has nothing to do with Five for Fighting. It's just a person who knows people needs his help and chooses not to be selfish. Boasting would have been "You have no idea what you're talking about Lois. The world needs me." That conversation couldn't have been seen as boasting.

I understand not liking that whole savior idea but that scene was the least of them. That was the equivalent of a cop or soldier explaining why they do what they do. He wanted Lois forgiveness and support.

I believe that it is this very depiction of the character that makes him unidentifiable. There is no conflict with in him. There is no tension or relate able connections. Superman as a character is constantly at odds with his alien and human heritage. He is the great immigrant, existing in a world where he isn't necessarily wanted and is seen, at least initially, as an unwanted figure in the world, regardless of whether he does good or not. Suspicion of his power. Suspicion of intentions. But on a personal level he does not see himself as something more than a man who see's things wrong in the world, has the ability to correct some of them and chooses to actually act on that ability. He doesn't do it because he is a extraterrestrial messiah sent by his father from the heavens to save humanity from themselves he does it because he can't live with himself if he doesn't.

I've never seen that in Supes stories unless it Lex spouting off some crap or an elseworld/alternate univerese story. The world isn't suspicous of Superman. That's the whole point of not covering his face. He's not trying to deceive anyone.

The only conflict Supes has is whether or not he's becoming a crutch.

 

[BlackLantern]

The only conflict Supes has is whether or not he's becoming a crutch.

I wish a film would explore that a little more

 

[stargazer]

I don't really get the comparison to Citizen Kane at all to be honest. Granted I suppose there is a very slim character association. I think what we got in Returns was a movie about a man finding that he's not the center of the universe but rather simply an actor in it. Which in it's own right would have been great but that theme became ultimately obscured by the fact that he never learned that lesson and was roundly applauded as the savior of humanity. It's as if everything Lex has said and thought about him was actually true. He see's arrogance in Superman and Superman lived up to that vision. There was no humility in his character. "I am the savior" was pretty much it.

There was absolutely NO arrogance in Superman in SR. On the contrary, I saw this Super-being being as compassionate as he could possibly be.

When Superman takes Lois flying and tells her that he hears everything and also "You wrote that the world doesn't need a saviour, but every day I hear people crying for one," he is simply saying that he just CAN'T shut his heart at all the suffering in the world. He has the means to alleviate some of that pain, which is very real (and to which Lois it's apparently unaware of), and he does it because he can and wants to do it. Then you see how Lois' attitude towards him beings to change. It's not always that easy to be Superman. Lots of responsibility and even the need to sacrifice his time and life for others.


.

 

[The Democrat]

I wasn't trying to say the Five for Fighting song was the reason behind that view but rather typified the view.

"You say the world doesn't need a savior. But every day, I hear them crying out for one." Thats not at all a boastful comment? He is essentially telling her that exact same thing you wrote would be considered a boastful comment. Obviously it could be seen as boasting, I saw it that way.

Not only that but I saw the whole movie as an arrogant reflection on his savior complex and a reflection of his own selfishness. The character in the movie knows how important he is to the people of his adopted world but decides to abandon them in search of his home planet. He apparently feels no guilt over this. Everyone else simply accepts him back. The only two people that appear resentful in any way are Lois and to some extent Lex. This is my main issue with the movie. It provides no character depth to the Superman. He leaves and comes back and is upset that his personal life didn't remain stagnant. There are so many muddled themes and characterizations in the movie that it's almost a pain to disassembles because for every theme and metaphor introduced it's immediately contradicted by another.

His determination that he shouldn't wear a mask in order to dull the possible resentment and suspicion of humanity is in itself a tacit aknowledgement that humans being human will be fickle and fearful of the appearance of someone like him. It's an aknowledgement that to some extent he respects and understands Jonathan's concerns as he grew up. He is vastly different from the rest of the population around him. This concern of being seen as an outsider and a dangerous one at that is always alluded too. Of course he is eventually respected by those who don't trust him and admired by those, among the majority obviously, who do.

 

[Crook]

"You say the world doesn't need a savior. But every day, I hear them crying out for one." Thats not at all a boastful comment? He is essentially telling her that exact same thing you wrote would be considered a boastful comment. Obviously it could be seen as boasting, I saw it that way.

On paper, yes it could be interpreted as such. But there's no way you can get a boastful statement out of Routh's delivery. The somber and almost defeated tone he gave was all you needed to know how he meant the line to be taken.

 

[Superark]

I hope this doesn't turn into another SR debate. We have a forum for that

 

[mego joe]

On paper, yes it could be interpreted as such. But there's no way you can get a boastful statement out of Routh's delivery. The somber and almost defeated tone he gave was all you needed to know how he meant the line to be taken.

More of a whine, 'boo hoo,' 'oh, woe is me.'

 

[mego joe]

I wasn't trying to say the Five for Fighting song was the reason behind that view but rather typified the view.

"You say the world doesn't need a savior. But every day, I hear them crying out for one." Thats not at all a boastful comment? He is essentially telling her that exact same thing you wrote would be considered a boastful comment. Obviously it could be seen as boasting, I saw it that way.

Not only that but I saw the whole movie as an arrogant reflection on his savior complex and a reflection of his own selfishness. The character in the movie knows how important he is to the people of his adopted world but decides to abandon them in search of his home planet. He apparently feels no guilt over this. Everyone else simply accepts him back. The only two people that appear resentful in any way are Lois and to some extent Lex. This is my main issue with the movie. It provides no character depth to the Superman. He leaves and comes back and is upset that his personal life didn't remain stagnant. There are so many muddled themes and characterizations in the movie that it's almost a pain to disassembles because for every theme and metaphor introduced it's immediately contradicted by another.

His determination that he shouldn't wear a mask in order to dull the possible resentment and suspicion of humanity is in itself a tacit aknowledgement that humans being human will be fickle and fearful of the appearance of someone like him. It's an aknowledgement that to some extent he respects and understands Jonathan's concerns as he grew up. He is vastly different from the rest of the population around him. This concern of being seen as an outsider and a dangerous one at that is always alluded too. Of course he is eventually respected by those who don't trust him and admired by those, among the majority obviously, who do.

Amazing post. Amazing... ...and on target.

 

[El Payaso]

I hope this doesn't turn into another SR debate. We have a forum for that

Too late.

 

[X Knight]

democrat, you are spot on in your posts about SR!! Very good points!!

but....please.....this is starting to turn into a SR debate thread again.......let's not go there again.....lest Showtime gives us a scoldin......

let's not keep looking back on what was or what could have been with SR. SR is over, done with, it's history. It is what it is.....and there's nothing we can do to change it.

It seems WB has pretty much moved on from SR........let us do the same........

 

[mego joe]

democrat, you are spot on in your posts about SR!! Very good points!!

but....please.....this is starting to turn into a SR debate thread again.......let's not go there again.....lest Showtime gives us a scoldin......

let's not keep looking back on what was or what could have been with SR. SR is over, done with, it's history. It is what it is.....and there's nothing we can do to change it.

It seems WB has pretty much moved on from SR........let us do the same........

I think that will be the legacy of SR. Onward to the reboot...

 

[stargazer]

I think that will be the legacy of SR. Onward to the reboot...

Which it's the sign of a great film. Why discuss Spy Kids or Ghost Ryder? There is nothing worth discussing in those flicks. When people care of feel strongly passionate about something, there will be discussion.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

I wish a film would explore that a little more

That's what I thought we where gonna get, last time. The whole "Does the world really need a Superman"? deal and all. Now, if they do a reboot, I don't know if that's, you know, a proper direction. If they where to do a sequel, though, well they already "did it" so obviously that's out of the question.

 

[El Payaso]

I think that will be the legacy of SR.

Oh, absolutely. The movie itself is derailing this thread, not some posters.

 

[The Democrat]

Well I wasn't trying to derail the thread or anything. I was trying to use Superman Returns as an example what not to do. I've put in plenty of ideas about where I think this should go it's just being hijacked and ignored by Returns fans.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Superman really does not see himself as a saviour or messiah or God. He sees himself as a hero who helps people. Not cause he have too or cause something happen to him when he was young. Cause he loves doing it. He does not ***** about saving others too much and not having any personal time cough Spiderman cough. He just loves helping people.

 

[Showtime]

Again. You don't really read the comics much.