Reintroducing Superman: An Open Discussion

[FlawlessVictory]

I've been watching S:TAS again lately. Now THAT'S the best incarnation ever of Superman! How can WB get it so right with the animated series and have such a brain fart for live action?

 

[KalMart]

I've been watching S:TAS again lately. Now THAT'S the best incarnation ever of Superman! How can WB get it so right with the animated series and have such a brain fart for live action?

Because cartoons are just cartoons...and the creative people they hired to head it just happened to be a great fit. SR had a lot going for it...the biggest budget to date, an all-time high in genre popularity, technological advancements in movie effects etc., and a director coming off a franchise that helped spearhead the recent boom in superhero movie popularity. It's just that....his idea for the movie itself.....

 

[dark_b]

That won't happen.

i want prince bel air comedy combined with superman action.


not happening is not an option

 

[Wheels]

Sucked. That's what you were going to say, right Kalmart?

 

[KalMart]

Sucked. That's what you were going to say, right Kalmart?

I wouldn't quite go that far...but I'd say it was misguided, and ultimately myopic. I think this same Bryan Singer, if he wanted to, could have made a new, contemporary take on Supes from the ground up without feeling the need to re-define the core of the character, and made a pretty good film out of it. But this was the kind of movie he wanted to do, and it just didn't take particularly well...especially when so many other hero movies are starting on new ground with a lot more energy. So hopefully, a new helmsman bring what should have been brought and start things off right....if it ever gets to that.

 

[MadVillainy]

If SR's only problem was the lack of a villain then I guess it wouldve/might have been alright to have a sequel
but the whole son of Superman thing did ruin the whole franchise potential of it for me and the Donnerverse is played out to me

 

[Crook]

Well, SR had solid sales on dvd. I really think that people like you are just proyecting your dislike for this movie; you really don't know how the mainstream feel. I mean, did you ask every one who went to watch the film?

Do you need to ask every person in the world to get a general feel of anticipation for a sequel or franchise? Films that are loved are being talked about months and years after the movie's release. You don't need to hold polls and surveys to know the public reverence of films like TDK, POTC, ST, Hangover, etc etc. These are movies being brought up in random convos for whatever reason.

You are completely wrong about my feelings for SR. I came out of it thinking it was good, but not great. As time went on, I grew to be more disappointed because of the hugely missed opportunity in creating another culture splash for this character. What's worse is SR did nothing for the character in terms of the superhero hierarchy. Bats and Spidey are still the crowd favorites by such a wide margin.

The general public still views SR as somewhere in the neutral zone. They're not lambasting it, but they sure as hell aren't on the edge of their seats asking for more asap. They went to see it, and they moved on. No more, no less.

And SR was a character-driven film, still it made more at the BO than ST, which was all full on action. Now imagine an action-packed sequel. I think it could have been great.

SR was going off the character name and interest in a possible reinvention ala BB.

ST was going off....a niche franchise that is considered the geekiest of the geek.

Supes (as a character) is still bottom-rung in audience's eyes. Star Trek is now considered cool and fun, and is no longer a turn-off. Is it that hard to see what each property did for their franchise?

Whose drop-offs were lower and which film got better critical/audience reviews? That says it all for a sequel's potential. If SR2 and ST2 were to come out tomorrow, I guarantee you no one in fandom would place much bets on Supes winning, judging on the overall reactions from the first films of their respective series.

 

[BestGirl]

There was lots of interest in a sequel by many fans and people in general, BUT WB ruined all of that with the constant stalling. That's it.

Things would have been SO different IF the sequel had come out this year as initially planned.

All you see now is pure revisionist history at its best.

How do you know this?

Not really. 2 years after it released the Wal-Mart were I worked had a few hundred DVD copies of it, and they were only able to move roughly 1/3 of them. To this day, they STILL have at least 100 copies left from that first shipment that have not sold, even though they marked down to 5 dollars. I remember the electronics dept. manager was always complaining about how they always had trouble finding places to stash them, since they clog up a lot of shelf space and no-one buys them.

Ouch!

 

[The Guard]

I really wonder what's going on.

This is just the nature of big budget superhero adaptions.

Both Batman and Superman franchises, Spider-Man, Daredevil, X-Men, The Hulk movies, Iron Man, The Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Watchmen, hell even CATWOMAN, they've all gone through development hell and struggled to get made, and took YEARS to get made. Even The Phantom took freaking forever way back when, and now it's taking forever yet again.

It isn't just Superman. Both DC and Marvel have projects that have languished for years. Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, Plastic Man (The Wachowskis have toyed with this for a decade or more now), Thor, Captain America, Namor, etc, etc, etc. This just seems to be the nature of most iconic superhero films. It's the fringe stuff, like HELLBOY and BLADE and original stuff or superhero comedies that get made relatively quickly.

Singer himself acknowledged his familiarity with the comics was pretty cursory. So I kind of doubt the idea of Lex as a modern CEO was fully fleshed out between him Dougherty and Harris. The possibilities it could have presented were probably not given the time they needed to be expanded upon. Again Donner's film was a cornerstone to much of what we saw in LL in SR.

Singer may have a cursory knowledge, but I'd wager he probably knows about corporate Luthor. They went through a TON of important back issues at DC's insistence, and don't think they didn't have access to SUPERMAN LIVES, JJ Abrams Superman drafts, and a number of other "treasures". They knew about it. They just wanted a sequel to the Donnerverse.

 

[Nightwing1983]

I've never seen S3 and S4, but I assume neither had plot points that absolutely needed to be carried over into SR, like a kid.

Well, at the end of IV, he gives a speech that seems to imply that he's quitting, but that's just one interpretation. Really, they could have taken place, but some like to think--for whatever reason--that the encounter in Superman II is that which produced Jason, but it's not essential.

So you're right.

They would have to explain how Lois and Richard's kid was able to throw a piano.

Well, some have said that the ship... eh, I don't know.

On the other hand, I think that it could be potentially interesting if Jason was just a kid with super powers and Superman didn't make that speech because they thought he was his son, but because he sees himself as needing to protect this mutant child.

I'm just saying. It might be.

Yes, it could also be hell lame, I'm just pointing out that there could be some interest there.

I'm not saying they should do it.

 

[KalMart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCp5s3zqB5k&feature=channel_page

 

[solidsnake86]

No new rumours I take it with talk turning back to SR. Its really funny how there's an influx of news and then it goes completely silent. Then again I think it has more to do with this court case, thats probably why they happen to be so tight lip'd

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Regarding the fact that there isn't going to be a sequel:

I'm just going to listen to Showtime and Jamie and believe that it is actually pretty much Singer's fault that a sequel isn't going to be made.

He didn't want to relinquish any control after his movie wasn't as big as a success as WB wanted it to be boxoffice and DVD wise so he left.

I think you should be angry at Singer MostPowerful because it sounds like if he had dropped the ego trip for a minute a sequel would have been made.

Ego's in Hollywood??? Who would have thunk it?

No matter whats the exact truth I always doubted that a sequel to SR was going to get made because the movie was met with a huge meh, one way or the other I think that a sequel would have always fell through.

It doesn't matter that Star Trek made less worldwide, it made more domestically (U.S/Canada), it got fantastic reviews (I know SR got good reviews too but they weren't as good as ST's) and most of all it had good legs and word of mouth. I think the next one is making atleast 300mil domestically and 200mil overseas.

 

[Nightwing1983]

It doesn't matter that Star Trek made less worldwide, it made more domestically (U.S/Canada), it got fantastic reviews (I know SR got good reviews too but they weren't as good as ST's) and most of all it had good legs and word of mouth. I think the next one is making atleast 300mil domestically and 200mil overseas.

Yup.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

No new rumours I take it with talk turning back to SR. Its really funny how there's an influx of news and then it goes completely silent. Then again I think it has more to do with this court case, thats probably why they happen to be so tight lip'd

Agreed.

 

[KalMart]

Regarding the fact that there isn't going to be a sequel:

I'm just going to listen to Showtime and Jamie and believe that it is actually pretty much Singer's fault that a sequel isn't going to be made.

He didn't want to relinquish any control after his movie wasn't as big as a success as WB wanted it to be boxoffice and DVD wise and left so he left.

I think you should be angry at Singer MostPowerful because it sounds like if he had dropped the ego trip for a minute a sequel would have been made.

Ego's in Hollywood??? Who would have thunk it?

No matter whats the exact truth I always doubted that a sequel to SR was going to get made because the movie was met with a huge meh, one way or the other I think that a sequel would have always fell through.

It doesn't matter that Star Trek made less worldwide, it made more domestically (U.S/Canada), it got fantastic reviews (I know SR got good reviews too but they weren't as good as ST's) and most of all it had good legs and word of mouth. I think the next one is making atleast 300mil domestically and 200mil overseas.

Then again, Nolan has as much 'control' over his Batman movies as Singer had over his Superma movie....yet the former just keeps chugging along.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Then again, Nolan has as much 'control' over his Batman movies as Singer had over his Superma movie....yet the former just keeps chugging along.

No matter what Nolan says I seriously doubt he wanted Katie Holmes in Batman Begins.

I just seriously doubt that he had as much control over Batman Begins as Singer had over Superman Returns when he had never directed a hit movie before.

 

[batman44]

No matter what Nolan says I seriously doubt he wanted Katie Holmes in Batman Begins.
I just seriously doubt that he had as much control over Batman Begins as Singer had over Superman Returns when he had never directed a hit movie before.

Lol.

 

[BestGirl]

Well, some have said that the ship... eh, I don't know.

On the other hand, I think that it could be potentially interesting if Jason was just a kid with super powers and Superman didn't make that speech because they thought he was his son, but because he sees himself as needing to protect this mutant child.

I'm just saying. It might be.

Yes, it could also be hell lame, I'm just pointing out that there could be some interest there.

I'm not saying they should do it.

Too much of a coincidence for me that Lois should sleep with Superman and just happen to have a mutant child. Regardless, Jason would have to have a place in the sequel and I don't want to see him.

 

[BestGirl]

No new rumours I take it with talk turning back to SR. Its really funny how there's an influx of news and then it goes completely silent.

That's how it's always been with Superman news, at least in my limited experience.

 

[Nightwing1983]

Too much of a coincidence for me that Lois should sleep with Superman and just happen to have a mutant child. Regardless, Jason would have to have a place in the sequel and I don't want to see him.

Well, sometimes great stories revolve around coincidences, but I agree with you. It's just a relic from when I thought following Returns would make me happy.

 

[B]

From what I've read from Robinov & Horn they had very little intention of doing a sequal once the figures started rolling in. Robinov is quoted as saying the film didn't quite work & Horn was quoted in saying it should have done $500m minimum..

Some people must have there "The film was great & everyone thought it was great" blinkers on, its a very rough calculation I know however a few months ago I was having a similar discussion on the Planet a few months ago about Superman Returns being split amongst the General Public & I brought this up:

It (Superman Returns) undoubtably split the overall GP, yes there are people that show the film was liked, but its a case of for every 3 people that liked the film.. there was 1 person that didn't, which isn't that good..in fact its exactly as I said..its very split..

Even though I think this site has a flawed overall marking system Rotton Tomatoes community (which I'll say is the GP) gives the film 73% out of 2676 reviews. Now, I'll again say that we'll say that the 1989 people that voted the film as 'fresh' loved it & the 707 people that voted 'rotten' didn't, either may or may not be true but just for arguments sake we'll say thats the way it goes. So taking this into consideration 707 rotten reviews almost goes into 1989 3 times (2.8'ish rounded up), which gives you an indication that for every 3 people that liked it, 1 didn't.. ie It gives a very strong arguement for it splitting the GP..

Batman Begins was the complete opposite, it recieved 95% based on 3748 reviews from the RT community (GP) 3756! fresh reviews, 172 rotton... using the same logic every 22 people that liked BB, 1 person hated it..

EDIT - This was in response to the sequal talk & SR recieving mainly good reviews talk further up the page ^^

 

[KalMart]

No matter what Nolan says I seriously doubt he wanted Katie Holmes in Batman Begins.

Gee...he got screwed there, huh?

I just seriously doubt that he had as much control over Batman Begins as Singer had over Superman Returns when he had never directed a hit movie before.

So do you attribute BB being a better movie....on a movie level...and translating into more public appeal...to WB's tighter stronghold? And SR's somber, less exciting experience to WB's relative generosity? I attribute it to the filmmakers themselves, and the stories they conceived and were given the opportunity to create.

And if it were just about gross numbers...as some have pointed out, SR grossed more WW than BB....the one with less studio control grossed more. So why would they want more control?

Take the whole studio control stuff out of it....you hire who you think is the right creative helmsman to steer the ship, both equally subject to the whims/interference/influence of the executive bigwigs, and hope for the best. One seemed to work out better than the other...so you give it the sequel, and the other one stops. Seemed to work out pretty well, as the former made gangbusters, and they didn't have to dump more money into the other, which generally isn't being missed by many.

There are also some who say that 'studio control' is what caused the Daredevil movie to turn out how it did.

 

[The Guard]

No matter what Nolan says I seriously doubt he wanted Katie Holmes in Batman Begins.

Then he may well be an outright liar, and not creative enough to come up with a good lie, which is probably worse. Because I believe he said, at one point, he and Goyer created the role for her specifically. That she was their inspiration in writing it, that she was their first choice, etc.

Nah.

Nolan found a "tremendous warmth and great emotional appeal" in Holmes, and also felt "she has a maturity beyond her years that comes across in the film and is essential to the idea that Rachel is something of a moral conscience for Bruce".

Maturity beyond her years. Riiight.

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Then he may well be an outright liar, and not creative enough to come up with a good lie, which is probably worse. Because I believe he said, at one point, he and Goyer created the role for her specifically. That she was their inspiration in writing it, that she was their first choice, etc.

Nah.

Nolan found a "tremendous warmth and great emotional appeal" in Holmes, and also felt "she has a maturity beyond her years that comes across in the film and is essential to the idea that Rachel is something of a moral conscience for Bruce".

Maturity beyond her years. Riiight.

Yep, he and Goyer were obviously spewing bulls**t.