Returns or 89?

[Rodrigo90]

IMO, Returns had a plot. B89, seemed kind of all over the shop.

B89 is my fav though

 

[Hobgoblin]

I think it's more than that.

Penguin may have been evil. But he was also someone who was totally deprived anything resembling a sane upbringing. If you pay close attention, all of his behavior and dialogue is almost that of a rather demented teenage boy. He gives no thought to controlling his base desires and instincts. That's why he does such evil things; any logical or sane concept of morality is overcome by his animalistic instincts.

Its a little of both, I think. He recognizes himself that he goes back and forth between civilized and inhuman. He corrects one of the Red Triangle thugs, saying he is Oswald Cobblepot. Later he hits another thug over the head and screams "I am not Oswald! I am Penguin! I am an animal! Cold blooded!"

Now, whether he was inherently evil, or just raised that way, is the question. Personally, I think it makes much more sense that it was from his upbringing that he never learned how to properly function as a human being. But at the same time, that whole cat-killing thing at the beginning seems to hint that his evil nature was there from the onset of his life.

There is probably a sociopathic nature in his biology. His parents did ditch their infant son into a sewer without a moments hesitation. You'd have to be a little twisted to do that. Being raised by gang members didnt help.

Max, on the other hand, is pretty much as evil as you can be. He's a sociopath, really. He did have a normal upbringing, is totally capable of handling himself within a society, and yet shows absolutely no remorse for the horrible things he does to people. He almost exhibits the traits of a serial killer.

I dont consider Shreck to be a sociopath. He did offer his own life for the safety of Chip's. He even seemed disturbed by Penguin telling him that he would be drowning the kidnapped kids. A sociopath wouldnt give a damn about anyone but himself. Max was just a greedy SOB. A perfect CEO.

It also seems to continue a point that Burton made in Edward Scissorhands; that it's normal people who are the real freaks and monsters in the world. Pretty cool.

I haven't seen Edward Scissorhands in forever. I need to watch it again.

 

[El Payaso]

I dont consider Shreck to be a sociopath. He did offer his own life for the safety of Chip's. He even seemed disturbed by Penguin telling him that he would be drowning the kidnapped kids. A sociopath wouldnt give a damn about anyone but himself. Max was just a greedy SOB. A perfect CEO.

That is very interesting. Because earlier in the movie, when the Circus Gang first appears, they have their weapons against Chip and they ask for Max. Chip says (more or less) "Run dad, save yourself" and daddy ran.

I could even think that Max offers himself to the Penguin because all Gotham's high society is watching.

 

[Hobgoblin]

That is very interesting. Because earlier in the movie, when the Circus Gang first appears, they have their weapons against Chip and they ask for Max. Chip says (more or less) "Run dad, save yourself" and daddy ran.

I could even think that Max offers himself to the Penguin because all Gotham's high society is watching.

Ok, I forgot that Max ran off. Still, he did risk his own life when he could have let Chip go.

 

[El Payaso]

Ok, I forgot that Max ran off. Still, he did risk his own life when he could have let Chip go.

I'm torn between thinking that he coudln't have let Chip go with Penguin in front of everyone and the notion that every businessman, no matter how powerful he is or feels that he is, will always want to transcend death and that's only achievable through progeny.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I think the dark atmosphere and undertones made Returns stand out to me and I can remember no praticular seen from BM89 but I can remember virtually everything from BR. So BR hands down.

 

[Ponyboy]

I could even think that Max offers himself to the Penguin because all Gotham's high society is watching.

And Shreck had been down in the sewer with Penguin before... So he knew his way around somewhat. And no doubt Max thought himself "smarter" than the Penguin, and that he'd be able to get away from him (or possibly kill him) at some point... Whereas Chip probably wouldn't have been able to

 

[El Payaso]

And Shreck had been down in the sewer with Penguin before... So he knew his way around somewhat. And no doubt Max thought himself "smarter" than the Penguin, and that he'd be able to get away from him (or possibly kill him) at some point... Whereas Chip probably wouldn't have been able to

Hah, yes. This son of mine couldn't get out of the bathroom if the door were locked. I'd better go myself instead.

 

[CConn]

I'm torn between thinking that he coudln't have let Chip go with Penguin in front of everyone and the notion that every businessman, no matter how powerful he is or feels that he is, will always want to transcend death and that's only achievable through progeny.

I like the latter.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Nah to me, Shreck's whole world was Chip.

But it didn't make sense when he claims everything is for Chip, and the movie does strongly show his love for his son, but it throws it away when Shreck runs away and leaves his son to the dogs...Sloppy writing IMO

 

[AnneFan]

Well, when Chip yells for his father to go and save himself, it does highlight it's a two way thing. Chip respects his father.

 

[Rodrigo90]

That's true. Shreck does truly love his son, look how far he will go to ensure he leaves behind a legacy for him.

Bottom line though, Chip would lay down his life for his father, and by the end, Shreck layed down his life for his son. It seems a very deep bond between the two. Unusual even...

 

[CConn]

I wouldn't say unusual. Even the most evil people have loved ones.

 

[Rodrigo90]

A strong bond then. I know a father would die for his son, but a son willing to die for his father? Bigger than me

 

[ALP]

I will say this, I watched Returns really in depth a couple of times over the past week, and it is a MUCH better movie than I ever realized.

There's so much subtle psychological, moral, and social commentary laced throughout the entire film. Everything Catwoman or Penguin does or says can be analyzed in about 10 different ways; each way revealing a new motive and meaning behind the character's intent and purpose.

On top of that, the plot is actually rather intricate even it may not seem so at first glance; you have Penguin's story of pain and psychotic revenge, you have Catwoman's insanity and sexuality, you have Batman's silent inner struggle over the emotional reprocussions of killing the Joker, and most brilliantly, you have Max Shreck's story; the "normal" person in the movie, Max is probably the most twisted and evil of any of the characters; constantly manipulating everyone in sight to further his own selfish goals.

While as I said about, B89 is the seminal Batman movie to me, I'd call Batman Returns possibly the most intriguing and intricate of any Batman film - even more than Nolan's uber-psychological films.

Couldn't have said it better. For all of these reasons, BR is my favorite Batman film. I'd even say it's possibly my favorite take on Batman ever. It's just really unique. Reminds me of my two favorite elseworld's tale. Arkham Asylum: Serious House and Batman: Nosferatu. Funny thing is, I think the villains in Nolan's films out-do the villains in BR (I even prefer Nicholson to Devito- who was also great) but overall it's the gothic fairy tale and psychological profile wrapped in dark humor that I love about BR. Back when Tim Burton was an innovator and a thriving storyteller who wasn't just out to make merchandise for Hot Topic.

 

[CConn]

I dont consider Shreck to be a sociopath. He did offer his own life for the safety of Chip's. He even seemed disturbed by Penguin telling him that he would be drowning the kidnapped kids. A sociopath wouldnt give a damn about anyone but himself. Max was just a greedy SOB. A perfect CEO.

I'm sorry, but Chip was very much the exception and not the rule.

And as we discussed, it's possible he just sees Chip as an offshoot of himself.

Max is much, much more than just "a perfect CEO", he intentionally uses every single person in the movie (aside from Chip) to further his own gains, and shows absolutely no remorse when horrible things happen to them purely because of his manipulations.

He's characterized as being quite wholly soulless and without any morals to speak of. A sociopath.

 

[CConn]

Its a little of both, I think. He recognizes himself that he goes back and forth between civilized and inhuman. He corrects one of the Red Triangle thugs, saying he is Oswald Cobblepot. Later he hits another thug over the head and screams "I am not Oswald! I am Penguin! I am an animal! Cold blooded!"

Um, what does him trying to reclaim his name have to do with him not having any morale compass?

I didn't say he doesn't TRY to be civilized, but it's quite obvious he's unable to given his upbringing. Even when he's at the peak of trying to be a well todo elite, he's still as perverted and demented as ever.

That's my point, not that he always thinks himself some bloodthirsty animal, but that he quite literally doesn't comprehend normal social mores and values.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Um, what does him trying to reclaim his name have to do with him not having any morale compass?

I didn't say he doesn't TRY to be civilized, but it's quite obvious he's unable to given his upbringing. Even when he's at the peak of trying to be a well todo elite, he's still as perverted and demented as ever.

That's my point, not that he always thinks himself some bloodthirsty animal, but that he quite literally doesn't comprehend normal social mores and values.

I wasnt talking about a moral compass. I was referring to him being aware of his dual human/animal nature.

 

[CConn]

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying, I wasn't.

I was more talking about his stunted mental and emotional growth.

 

[Hobgoblin]

I'm sorry, but Chip was very much the exception and not the rule.

And as we discussed, it's possible he just sees Chip as an offshoot of himself.

Max is much, much more than just "a perfect CEO", he intentionally uses every single person in the movie (aside from Chip) to further his own gains, and shows absolutely no remorse when horrible things happen to them purely because of his manipulations.

He's characterized as being quite wholly soulless and without any morals to speak of. A sociopath.

All I'm saying is that Max doesnt fit the definition of a sociopath. Such a person cares only for themselves. He would have claimed that he couldnt stop Penguin from taking Chip when his rich cronies asked him why he didnt stop Cobblepot. The writers, understandably, were more concerned with getting Max into the sewers with Penguin to meet his end than in following strict psychological definitions.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Can anybody make any sense of Shreck? Look at that hair!