Its a little of both, I think. He recognizes himself that he goes back and forth between civilized and inhuman. He corrects one of the Red Triangle thugs, saying he is Oswald Cobblepot. Later he hits another thug over the head and screams "I am not Oswald! I am Penguin! I am an animal! Cold blooded!"I think it's more than that.
Penguin may have been evil. But he was also someone who was totally deprived anything resembling a sane upbringing. If you pay close attention, all of his behavior and dialogue is almost that of a rather demented teenage boy. He gives no thought to controlling his base desires and instincts. That's why he does such evil things; any logical or sane concept of morality is overcome by his animalistic instincts.
Now, whether he was inherently evil, or just raised that way, is the question. Personally, I think it makes much more sense that it was from his upbringing that he never learned how to properly function as a human being. But at the same time, that whole cat-killing thing at the beginning seems to hint that his evil nature was there from the onset of his life.
Max, on the other hand, is pretty much as evil as you can be. He's a sociopath, really. He did have a normal upbringing, is totally capable of handling himself within a society, and yet shows absolutely no remorse for the horrible things he does to people. He almost exhibits the traits of a serial killer.
I haven't seen Edward Scissorhands in forever. I need to watch it again.It also seems to continue a point that Burton made in Edward Scissorhands; that it's normal people who are the real freaks and monsters in the world. Pretty cool.
I dont consider Shreck to be a sociopath. He did offer his own life for the safety of Chip's. He even seemed disturbed by Penguin telling him that he would be drowning the kidnapped kids. A sociopath wouldnt give a damn about anyone but himself. Max was just a greedy SOB. A perfect CEO.
That is very interesting. Because earlier in the movie, when the Circus Gang first appears, they have their weapons against Chip and they ask for Max. Chip says (more or less) "Run dad, save yourself" and daddy ran.
I could even think that Max offers himself to the Penguin because all Gotham's high society is watching.
Ok, I forgot that Max ran off. Still, he did risk his own life when he could have let Chip go.
I could even think that Max offers himself to the Penguin because all Gotham's high society is watching.
And Shreck had been down in the sewer with Penguin before... So he knew his way around somewhat. And no doubt Max thought himself "smarter" than the Penguin, and that he'd be able to get away from him (or possibly kill him) at some point... Whereas Chip probably wouldn't have been able to
I like the latter.I'm torn between thinking that he coudln't have let Chip go with Penguin in front of everyone and the notion that every businessman, no matter how powerful he is or feels that he is, will always want to transcend death and that's only achievable through progeny.
I will say this, I watched Returns really in depth a couple of times over the past week, and it is a MUCH better movie than I ever realized.
There's so much subtle psychological, moral, and social commentary laced throughout the entire film. Everything Catwoman or Penguin does or says can be analyzed in about 10 different ways; each way revealing a new motive and meaning behind the character's intent and purpose.
On top of that, the plot is actually rather intricate even it may not seem so at first glance; you have Penguin's story of pain and psychotic revenge, you have Catwoman's insanity and sexuality, you have Batman's silent inner struggle over the emotional reprocussions of killing the Joker, and most brilliantly, you have Max Shreck's story; the "normal" person in the movie, Max is probably the most twisted and evil of any of the characters; constantly manipulating everyone in sight to further his own selfish goals.
While as I said about, B89 is the seminal Batman movie to me, I'd call Batman Returns possibly the most intriguing and intricate of any Batman film - even more than Nolan's uber-psychological films.
I'm sorry, but Chip was very much the exception and not the rule.I dont consider Shreck to be a sociopath. He did offer his own life for the safety of Chip's. He even seemed disturbed by Penguin telling him that he would be drowning the kidnapped kids. A sociopath wouldnt give a damn about anyone but himself. Max was just a greedy SOB. A perfect CEO.
Um, what does him trying to reclaim his name have to do with him not having any morale compass?Its a little of both, I think. He recognizes himself that he goes back and forth between civilized and inhuman. He corrects one of the Red Triangle thugs, saying he is Oswald Cobblepot. Later he hits another thug over the head and screams "I am not Oswald! I am Penguin! I am an animal! Cold blooded!"
Um, what does him trying to reclaim his name have to do with him not having any morale compass?
I didn't say he doesn't TRY to be civilized, but it's quite obvious he's unable to given his upbringing. Even when he's at the peak of trying to be a well todo elite, he's still as perverted and demented as ever.
That's my point, not that he always thinks himself some bloodthirsty animal, but that he quite literally doesn't comprehend normal social mores and values.
I'm sorry, but Chip was very much the exception and not the rule.
And as we discussed, it's possible he just sees Chip as an offshoot of himself.
Max is much, much more than just "a perfect CEO", he intentionally uses every single person in the movie (aside from Chip) to further his own gains, and shows absolutely no remorse when horrible things happen to them purely because of his manipulations.
He's characterized as being quite wholly soulless and without any morals to speak of. A sociopath.