Revenge of the Sith Revenge of the Sith Apreciation Thread

[Mace Dolex]

Ive also been watching the SW movies and in order this time that with the prequels I noticed that three movies were not necessary to tell Anakin's story, it would have been easier to just use one movie to tell and fill in the the little gaps of Anakin's backstory in between the movie.

I mean basically from what little that Obi Wan said to Luke in ANH about him and Anakin being good friends is all we needed to see, there was no need to know about midiclorians, podracing, Sebulba, Jar Jar Bink's, Naboo, the Trade Federation, Qui Gon, and no damn Mace Windu.

 

[Brother Jack]

One of the fundamental story problems with the prequels is that there isn't a main character. It is ostensibly Anakin but Obi-Wan takes just as much of the protagonist role.

 

[BatLobster]

Even Lucas has openly admitted that most of the pertinent story is in Episode III, with Episode I and II largely being backstory or as he calls it "the boring part of the book". This became even more unbalanced when he decided to start the story even further in the past than originally planned and put further strain on Episode III having to tie up all loose ends. The decision was made in 1978 (when he decided that Vader was Luke's father and ESB was part 5 rather than part 2) that there would be an entire trilogy taking place before A New Hope that chronicled Obi-Wan as a Jedi and Anakin's fall though, so for better or worse that's the corner that he wrote himself into there. If Lucas had only made Episode III, I'm sure Disney would've eventually made movies out of Episodes I and II regardless...though I'd bet they would've been more Obi-Wan centric stories if that were the case.

I do think the prequels make the SW saga unique in that you have entire films devoted mainly to world-building and setup, kind of like the prologue of an epic book. Or at least unique until Jackson decided to stretch out The Hobbit into three films. I do the the SW prequels have a stronger arc and throughline to them, and much more reverse mirroring of the classic trilogy. So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say SW prequels > Hobbit Trilogy, at least in terms of overall story. Also they're not insufferably long.

 

[Brother Jack]

The PT never had Martin Freeman (or any actor that entertaining). Though for long stretches neither did the Hobbit trilogy.

 

[Bim]

One of the fundamental story problems with the prequels is that there isn't a main character. It is ostensibly Anakin but Obi-Wan takes just as much of the protagonist role.

I actually kinda like the fact that yes, obviously Anakin's story takes a lot of the focus, but we also got to see backstories for characters like Obi-Wan and Palpatine/Sidious, that i think are extremely important to the saga.

 

[Brother Jack]

I actually kinda like the fact that yes, obviously Anakin's story takes a lot of the focus, but we also got to see backstories for characters like Obi-Wan and Palpatine/Sidious, that i think are extremely important to the saga.

Getting backstory is important but it shouldn't come at the cost of other characters. Anakin is almost completely passive in Episode I and much of Episode II. In Sith he gets more agency just in time for him to become the badguy.

 

[Mad Ones]

RotS makes the narrative all about Anakin, which is fine. But it makes it seem like Anakin is the most important person in the universe, which doesn't make sense from what we've seen in the OT. Palpatine's plans seem to culminate into Vader, to the point where the movie implies that Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's immaculate midichlorian conception (that was the stupidest sentence I've written in a while). OT Vader was just a badass henchmen whose lost good qualities resurface in his children.

RotS also exposes the PT's issue with tone. The "humour" coming from Jar Jar in PM or C3P0 in AotC makes the PT seem like it was written for toddlers. Only to lead up to a movie where Anakin kills toddlers.

 

[Brother Jack]

RotS also exposes the PT's issue with tone. The "humour" coming from Jar Jar in PM or C3P0 in AotC makes the PT seem like it was written for toddlers. Only to lead up to a movie where Anakin kills toddlers.

It's difficult for me to articulate how much I hate that scene.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I like Revenge Of The Sith. It's easily the best movie of the prequels but that's not saying munch. It's also the best looking Star Wars movie to date. I just bought the 2011 Star Wars Saga Blu Ray collection and I am really impressed with the quality. The battle of mustafar is absolutely stunning.

 

[Bim]

Yeah, the blu-ray version of ROTS looks stunning.

 

[HarryOsborn]

RotS makes the narrative all about Anakin, which is fine. But it makes it seem like Anakin is the most important person in the universe, which doesn't make sense from what we've seen in the OT. Palpatine's plans seem to culminate into Vader, to the point where the movie implies that Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's immaculate midichlorian conception (that was the stupidest sentence I've written in a while). OT Vader was just a badass henchmen whose lost good qualities resurface in his children.

RotS also exposes the PT's issue with tone. The "humour" coming from Jar Jar in PM or C3P0 in AotC makes the PT seem like it was written for toddlers. Only to lead up to a movie where Anakin kills toddlers.

I disagree, I think Clones made it seem much more like the universe centered around Anakin than Sith, though Sith was guilty of this. It's really not that big a stretch to think Palpatine staged the death of his former apprentice to make his biggest threat his servant. Really it was a WAY bigger stretch to think Palpatine orchestrated the attacks on Padme, had them sent away to fall in love knowing they would bond, knowing Anakin's mother would die, knowing Count Dooku wouldn't kill him, etc.

The whole war could have been avoided if you think about it, because Sidious could have just used his clone army, and Dooku's droid army to take down the Republic. I mean it's not that big a stretch to theorize that he could have tricked the Separatist Council into going along with this plan, given that he tricked them into the war with promises (?) we don't even see or hear of. Phantom Menace wasn't very good, but IMO Clones was the real source of this problem, Sith was just it's culmination.

 

[Bim]

The whole war could have been avoided if you think about it, because Sidious could have just used his clone army, and Dooku's droid army to take down the Republic. I mean it's not that big a stretch to theorize that he could have tricked the Separatist Council into going along with this plan, given that he tricked them into the war with promises (?) we don't even see or hear of.

Yeah, but the people would see him as the bad guy he is had he done that, and not stand with him. Civil war to no end. The way he did things not only made his biggest thread (the jedi) the bad guys in the eyes of the people, but the people were more than willing to stand behind him, grant him all kinds of powers to make things right. He was able to declare himself emperor. I tell ya, that Sidious is one manipulating dude. He would constantly improvise when things didnt go according to plan and find a way to find benefit for himself. He is truly the biggest baddie in a galaxy far, far away. He was very smart about how he went about things, and just found a way to get things to go the way he wanted for a very long time. It's no wonder Luke called him out on his overconfidence in ROTJ. I think by that point Sidious thought he had everything under control, and there was no way Vader would betray him.

 

[HarryOsborn]

Yeah, but the people would see him as the bad guy he is had he done that, and not stand with him. Civil war to no end. The way he did things not only made his biggest thread (the jedi) the bad guys in the eyes of the people, but the people were more than willing to stand behind him, grant him all kinds of powers to make things right. He was able to declare himself emperor. I tell ya, that Sidious is one manipulating dude. He would constantly improvise when things didnt go according to plan and find a way to find benefit for himself. He is truly the biggest baddie in a galaxy far, far away. He was very smart about how he went about things, and just found a way to get things to go the way he wanted for a very long time. It's no wonder Luke called him out on his overconfidence in ROTJ. I think by that point Sidious thought he had everything under control, and there was no way Vader would betray him.

The guy went on to massacre people, sterilize populations, and build something called a "Death Star". It's not like there was a point to him pretending to be a good guy, he was ruling through force anyway. Plus looking in history people like Caesar, Genghis Khan, and Hitler all amassed powerful empires through force. They just had a small loyal following that allowed the injustice because of they stood to benefit- which palpatine had through is Moffs and Governors.

Anyway the Clone Wars was a ridiculous concept here are some questions for you-

Why did Palpatine order the Clone army?- So he could have an army at his disposal to destroy the Jedi/control the Republic.

Why did the Republic approve this army?- Because Dooku had battle droids and was ready to start a war against this Republic without an armed forces. So they didn't really need the Clones to take the Republic.

Why did the Clones go to Geonosis?- Because the Jedi were about to be wiped out, and of 200 that arrived only 20 came out alive against these droids. So he didn't really need them to take out the Jedi either.

Given that he did away with the Clones and his injustices caused Civil War to breakout regardless, there was really no point in staging the war or creating the army. Just because his plan was hard to understand and impressively complex, doesn't mean it's clever story telling, most likely it just makes no sense because it's riddled with holes and flaws in logic.

 

[Bim]

True, but that didnt happen right away though. Yeah, by the time we get to ANH the discontent is more evident, which is why the Rebellion was able to flourish, but it's been a while since ROTS. I always imagined that the regular people barely paid mind to what was going on, just trying to survive. Yes, a segment was willing and ready to confront the emperor, but it was a minority at the start. That's how i see it anyways lol.

Personally, i always saw the clones as Palpatine's play to destroy the Republic from the inside by manufacturing the war. He kept the jedi busy with the war (not to mention killing a few in the process, decimating their numbers) while slowly gathering more power to himself, using it as an excuse. The people's main focus was also the war, and he could get away with more stuff if people werent really paying close attention to what he was doing, like politicians do today lol. I think the ordering of the clones was him giving the Republic the tools for its demise, to weaken it. Of course he had to make sure he was in power in order to hand the Republic the gun that it would shoot itself with. A weakened Republic is much easier to take over than a strong unified one. I dunno, it works for me.

 

[BatLobster]

The suggestion of Sidious using the droid army and clones to "take down" the Republic is basically trying to make it a "Republic is overthrown by external enemies" plot. Internal collapse was a much more interesting story to tell.

Sure, once Palpatine turns, he becomes a very exaggerated bad guy, but the overall rise to power was pretty well done with a lot of historical influences. The whole playing of both sides is a believable rise to power up until the point that senate keeps following him even when he looks like a demon and his whole demeanor changes...but I'm willing to forgive that because of it's also a fantasy story for children.

I do wish the whole Delegation of 2000 and early seeds of the rebellion plotline from ROTS stayed in the movie though.

 

[Snow Queen]

The suggestion of Sidious using the droid army and clones to "take down" the Republic is basically trying to make it a "Republic is overthrown by external enemies" plot. Internal collapse was a much more interesting story to tell.

Sure, once Palpatine turns, he becomes a very exaggerated bad guy, but the overall rise to power was pretty well done with a lot of historical influences. The whole playing of both sides is a believable rise to power up until the point that senate keeps following him even when he looks like a demon and his whole demeanor changes...but I'm willing to forgive that because of it's also a fantasy story for children.

I do wish the whole Delegation of 2000 and early seeds of the rebellion plotline from ROTS stayed in the movie though.

But that's the most fun part.

 

[747]

One of the most exciting experiences at the cinema for me. And I still really like it despite discovering more flaws with time. Easily the best prequel.

 

[BatLobster]

But that's the most fun part.

Damn straight! Love that guy.

 

[Mad Ones]

Did you guys like it when Yoda knocked Palpatine over his chair and his legs flipped over his head? The slap stick comedy was very well done in that movie

 

[HarryOsborn]

True, but that didnt happen right away though. Yeah, by the time we get to ANH the discontent is more evident, which is why the Rebellion was able to flourish, but it's been a while since ROTS. I always imagined that the regular people barely paid mind to what was going on, just trying to survive. Yes, a segment was willing and ready to confront the emperor, but it was a minority at the start. That's how i see it anyways lol.

Thing is though it did happen right away. The thing is the republic was painted as helpless against the droids, so there's no reason they'd be any less helpless if the events of the movie didn't occur. The only explanation is Palpatine staged this whole convoluted plan for the soul purpose of recruiting Anakin, which is terrible storytelling in my opinion- especially since by the time we see him again in ANH he's just guy going in with the troops to rough people up.

Personally, i always saw the clones as Palpatine's play to destroy the Republic from the inside by manufacturing the war. He kept the jedi busy with the war (not to mention killing a few in the process, decimating their numbers) while slowly gathering more power to himself, using it as an excuse. The people's main focus was also the war, and he could get away with more stuff if people werent really paying close attention to what he was doing, like politicians do today lol. I think the ordering of the clones was him giving the Republic the tools for its demise, to weaken it. Of course he had to make sure he was in power in order to hand the Republic the gun that it would shoot itself with. A weakened Republic is much easier to take over than a strong unified one. I dunno, it works for me.

Okay but we saw absolutely none of this. We also saw that the fully unified Republic was going to be screwed if the droids attacked. Logically speaking Palpatine could've had Dooku do all that BS, held off on the Clones, had that Geonosis thing take place on Courescant instead with some type of horrible death toll- maybe even killing all the Senators. Declaring himself emergency powers to rebuild after the attack being some type of a war hero. Then he brings in the clones, rebuilds the place as an Empire. Hitler got his power after WWI by rebuilding Germany, Caesar got his power by being generous to his troops, I'm just saying if we're playing the speculation game that makes a lot more sense than "weakening the Republic from the inside".

Even following the events and logic of the film, Dooku was known to be a Jedi! The Jedi didn't even discover he was a Sith Lord until like Season 6 of TCW! All Palpatine had to do was be like "Hey! You know that jerk that killed a bunch of Jedi and tried to brutally execute one of you Senators over there on Geonosis? You know, that guy with the beard that's out invading planets and slaughtering the innocent? You do? Okay cool! He was one of those Jedi, so we're not cool with those dudes being around anymore." They could barely hold their own against the droids and the Clones mowed them down easily in Sith. Not to mention Sidious on his own took out like 3 of them and only debatably lost to Windu, not to mention was capable to fighting Yoda to a draw. The Jedi wouldn't have been much of an obstacle.

As for the chosen one, again no problem. Even Anakin was already fed up with the council by the beginning of Episode II, he thought it master was spiteful and overbearing, and by the end of the film they were keeping him from his lover and didn't teach him what he needed to save his mom. It's not like it would have been hard for Palpatine to be like, "Hey I'm rebuilding this place, you and Padme will be able to rule by my side happily, you'll be powerful enough to stop that bs with your mom, I'll let you stay out late on the weekends, oh and I know you already believe dictatorships are chill if the ends justifies the means so...you'll start monday..."

The whole grand plan was way over done in Episode II and it was acceptable in I and III, but still a bit much. Super complex isn't always super good, sometimes it's just super lazily written.

 

[Mad Ones]

I hated that they made the Jedi into some kind of creepy ineffectual cult. Anakin looked severely disturbed and all Yoda told him was to "let go of what's bothering you." All these characters were dumb.

 

[Greens]

Did you guys like it when Yoda knocked Palpatine over his chair and his legs flipped over his head? The slap stick comedy was very well done in that movie

If you look closely, you can see his ass crack.

 

[HarryOsborn]

I hated that they made the Jedi into some kind of creepy ineffectual cult. Anakin looked severely disturbed and all Yoda told him was to "let go of what's bothering you." All these characters were dumb.

This is why I'm totally okay with the Sith coming back and what not in the new films- because Anakin's purpose was to destroy both the Sith and the Jedi. Maybe not in old cannon but i'm positive in canon they're never returning to that "a Jedi may not know love" crap they gave us in the prequels. Infact I'd bet money the new Jedi of the trilogy has a romance they are no punished for and if there's a reason Luke's new order failed- it's because he tried to make it too close to the creepy cult that preceded him.

 

[Marvolo]

This is why I'm totally okay with the Sith coming back and what not in the new films- because Anakin's purpose was to destroy both the Sith and the Jedi. Maybe not in old cannon but i'm positive in canon they're never returning to that "a Jedi may not know love" crap they gave us in the prequels. Infact I'd bet money the new Jedi of the trilogy has a romance they are no punished for and if there's a reason Luke's new order failed- it's because he tried to make it too close to the creepy cult that preceded him.

It's not like there is a Jedi Council to punish them anyways. And I doubt Luke is going to be kicking out and turning away Force Wielders because of them loving someone. That would just leave Force Wielders out there that the Sith can scoop up. So I think you are right. Luke won't enforce the "thou shalt not love or have sex" rule. And that's if Luke even knows of that rule. Yoda never told him about it on screen and as far as we saw Obi never told him either so the writers can just ignore the whole thing.

But personally I don't have a problem with a Jedi devoting themselves and their lives totally to the Force. Abstaining from the ultimate distraction of love and a spouse does allow a person to focus more fully on God, the Force, a goal etc. That's why monks and priests do it as a discipline. No one or no other thing takes precedent. But I don't think it should have been a mandatory thing of the Jedi Order. Maybe have certain positions in the Order require a Jedi not be married. Like a position on the High Council.

But lower ranked Jedi or Jedi that aren't aiming to be on the highest echelon shouldn't be kicked out solely for loving. Surely they can still be valuable to the Order and the Force.

 

[HarryOsborn]

It's not like there is a Jedi Council to punish them anyways. And I doubt Luke is going to be kicking out and turning away Force Wielders because of them loving someone. That would just leave Force Wielders out there that the Sith can scoop up. So I think you are right. Luke won't enforce the "thou shalt not love or have sex" rule. And that's if Luke even knows of that rule. Yoda never told him about it on screen and as far as we saw Obi never told him either so the writers can just ignore the whole thing.

But personally I don't have a problem with a Jedi devoting themselves and their lives totally to the Force. Abstaining from the ultimate distraction of love and a spouse does allow a person to focus more fully on God, the Force, a goal etc. That's why monks and priests do it as a discipline. No one or no other thing takes precedent. But I don't think it should have been a mandatory thing of the Jedi Order. Maybe have certain positions in the Order require a Jedi not be married. Like a position on the High Council.

But lower ranked Jedi or Jedi that aren't aiming to be on the highest echelon shouldn't be kicked out solely for loving. Surely they can still be valuable to the Order and the Force.

The thing is being a Jedi didn't use to be like being a priest. In the original trilogy it was a lot more like Buddhism or Hinduism in many ways. Becoming a Jedi wasn't achieving a certain rank, or getting the seat you wanted- it was about a personal journey of enlightenment, like reaching nirvana. Luke wasn't a Jedi when he was deemed one by his masters, he was a Jedi once he confronted Vader because atonement with his father was his own personal journey. Once he was willing to resist temptation, accept selflessness, he was a Jedi.

There's reasons Jedi that look like this:

are more interesting than some robed monks. They have character and a story of their own- personal lives included. I can assure you Disney is not going to keep this no romance story up, not because of any loopholes, but because they want these stories to be accessible, and aside from retconning the past, they can do whatever they want. I don't think Luke will be married since he sounds like a hermit, but you can bet Finn and Rey will have romances with someone, and frankly these are not "lower ranked Jedi".