Riots in Missouri - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

Okay....Way to ignore everything else but even if they are at the same height, Brown weighed anywhere between 260 to closer to 300 lbs. Depending where you look. I see 289

Officer Wilson weighs 210

Brown has a weight advantage of 50-80+ lbs....that is not something you ignore. Any one at that height and carrying that much weight can be extremely dangerous in a physical confrontation. You would be incredibly naive to think otherwise. Again, watch the tape of the robbery he committed, Brown is a definite physical threat

How tall was the kid?

 

[dodgers2213]

How tall was the kid?

6'4" 260-300 lbs. Again depending on your source. Most seem to say closer to 300 lbs

 

[DeadPresident]

Well, I've gone to school in the Bronx where there were enough issues with guns that the school needed to have police present and metal detectors and a mandatory pat down to enter the school...and still there were stabbings and a shooting having happened while I went there outside the school.

FYI, adding metal detectors and police pat downs to enter a school...adds about an hour extra of entering the school, so if I needed to be in school at 9 AM, had to be there at 8 AM to get in on time or wind up getting tossed inside the auditorium for "being late" to school...even if it was the NYPD that held me up longer and kept me in the hallways by the time class started.

That whole thing really sucked.

Sure, but for some reason mass shootings seem to happen primarily with bullied white kids. And as is obvious to everyone, except those in power apparently, access to guns wouldn't matter if the social fabric of a community stopped as many kids as possible from being exposed to bullying.

Wasn't my post, but that is accurate. The majority of residents in Ferguson are black.

And I hear what you're saying. I...don't think it's the case that the police force was allocated in such a manner. I would certainly hope not.

But, I have seen that case made by a reporter who was present there last night, lamenting how certain blocks were filled with police, but other blocks were completely empty giving opportunity to bedlam...and he seemed convinced that the residents in those neighborhoods affected the allocation of the police.

I...remain unconvinced on that. And would really hope it isn't, because sacrificing some of the blocks for others seems like an unnecessary decision.

I could be way off base, I haven't stayed in the states for years so I might be reading it incorrectly. But related to certain things it seems like structural racism is still quite prevalent stateside.

 

[DeadPresident]

6'4" 260-300 lbs. Again depending on your source. Most seem to say closer to 300 lbs

That's a pretty big 18 year old. I can understand the perception from somebody being attacked by somebody that size that being that they could die from the altercation. Whether the cop was within his rights I'm not sure, but I'd feel similar urgency if I was the one being attacked.

 

[CELTICPRED]

6'4" 260-300 lbs. Again depending on your source. Most seem to say closer to 300 lbs

He's a big guy.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Okay....Way to ignore everything else but

FINE. OKAY.

Seems like people know very little about how lethal an unarmed person can be. This came up during the Trayvon situation and here we are again.

Now, is it rare for a single punch to kill someone? Why, yes. But it is possible...

I think someone with a gun, whose freaking out about how lethal the other person can be without a gun...probably should have a gun because they will make stupid decisions.

You mentioned Trayvon Martin, and in that case that was way more different than this because I think that was an even clearer case. Everyone knows Martin was murdered. There's no way he could have killed Zimmerman with his bare fists.

Just to show it is possible. Now let's factor in that Michael Brown was a GIANT....

He wasn't a giant compared to Officer Wilson. So, no, not in this case. Not a GIANT.

Punches can be deadly...rarely from the first one but multiple punches--and people don't often stop with one strike. Now getting attacked by such a huge MAN is going to be a very dangerous, potentially life threatening situation. Period. Deny it all you want, keep being ignorant about the reality, but it's the truth.
All it takes is to lose consciousness or to suffer a concussion thus limiting your ability to defend yourself. An officer has weapons that can be used against him so obviously any of the aforementioned injuries can lead to the officer's death. Let's also not forget the potential to suffer long term damage.
People are killed every year by the hundreds from unarmed assaults. "Unarmed teen" or "unarmed" in general are meaningless statements used only to stir up the ignorant into a frenzy

Attack an officer, or anyone armed, and whatever happens afterward is your fault

He wasn't a huge man compared to Wilson. I think to say someone SHOULD BE KILLED for using his fists is incredible unfair to say, and I think it's an ignorant thing to say. If under ever single case, someone shot an unarmed person...that would be a horrible defense. It wouldn't hold up because it's laughable. Police officers have a difficult job, so assessing if they're in a life threatening situation is part of the defense that goes into any of their shooting.

I think someone who is fearful of being killed by a fist is probably a coward whose never been in a fight, or is really small and easily overmatched.

I guess police officers should kill people more often, what with all those people walking around with their lethal weapon hands...

Okay....Way to ignore everything else but even if they are at the same height, Brown weighed anywhere between 260 to closer to 300 lbs. Depending where you look. I see 289

Officer Wilson weighs 210

Brown has a weight advantage of 50-80+ lbs....that is not something you ignore. Any one at that height and carrying that much weight can be extremely dangerous in a physical confrontation. You would be incredibly naive to think otherwise. Again, watch the tape of the robbery he committed, Brown is a definite physical threat

Now I didn't, so there you go.

I think your argument about his fists being lethal doesn't hold up. I've seen the video, and he strong armed someone who was much smaller than him. Wilson isn't. It sounds to me like you're saying that Brown deserved to be killed because he COULD have been dangerous, which is absurd.

You need to try and not be so paranoid about everyone's fists all being 'lethal weapons'. You could even argue that him going for Wilson's gun, which Wilson testified to, could be more of a reason.

The "I was afraid of his fists" defense seems laughable to me.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hey, Chris. Watch the behind the scenes of your favorite Batman movie.

KFM practitioners position their arms like that for a reason.

Were any of them untrained, overweight teenagers?

 

[Howlett]

Unfortunately, I think she's probably out of business. The destruction of businesses, even when something like natural disasters, can devastate it enough to put it out of business. There's word that ALOT of people have been put out of business because of what happened last night.

There probably wouldn't be a way to find the people responsible for destroying her place of business because of all the chaos. Maybe if she can find the capital to rebuild...but I'd imagine that like most other small businesses, a hit like that would just be way too much to come back from. It's really a sad thing to see.

So it's safe to say no one will be arrested for destroying their lives?

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, they managed to arrest 83 people last night. So, maybe the person or people responsible were arrested. But, I really doubt that even if they were that they'd get pinned for the destruction of that property.

I mean...the sad thing is that the people who destroyed those people's lives will probably never pay for what they've done. I think that when there's so much rioting, that alot of people who take part in it do it because they're convinced they can get away with it.

 

[Victarion]

He's a big guy.

You don't get to bring friends.

 

[Kelly]

The sad thing about it is those idiots pushed that community back decades. Those businesses were willing to build there, grow that community, and from what I've heard from 2 of the owners, they are not rebuilding there. Way to move your community forward. Geez, what the heck is wrong with these people.

I understand protesting, I understand they are angry, hell, I understand being angry at the police and burning a police car, I don't think that is the right thing to do, but I can understand that kind of anger, but I don't understand just destroying something for no reason. Businesses that have been a part of your community. I just don't get that mentality, it is very barbaric to me.

 

[chaseter]

I said "plenty". Not everyone.

I like how you are trying to normalize your's and other's terrible behavior. A real hero, a real human being.

 

[Flint Marko]

The sad thing about it is those idiots pushed that community back decades. Those businesses were willing to build there, grow that community, and from what I've heard from 2 of the owners, they are not rebuilding there. Way to move your community forward. Geez, what the heck is wrong with these people.

I understand protesting, I understand they are angry, hell, I understand being angry at the police and burning a police car, I don't think that is the right thing to do, but I can understand that kind of anger, but I don't understand just destroying something for no reason. Businesses that have been a part of your community. I just don't get that mentality, it is very barbaric to me.

Barbaric is the exact word for it. It doesn't make any sense, and truth be told I think a lot of them were just looking for a reason to get outraged and break some laws.
Fortunately there are more than enough examples of people protesting the decision in a calm, peaceful manner to help outweigh the few idiots.

 

[dodgers2213]

Okay Chris, so your entire argument is to downplay, oversimplify, and based on your personal ignorance and not what real life is about or law. It's likely I don't need to reply back to after this...the recurring theme here is you don't know what you are talking about. Alright here we go....

FINE. OKAY.
I think someone with a gun, whose freaking out about how lethal the other person can be without a gun...probably should have a gun because they will make stupid decisions.

When someone begins to strike you, a giant like Brown, it is not beyond comprehension to fear for your life.
Injuries actually sustained is moot, the lethality of fists is a reality. Like a mentioned in my original post. Law enforcement are trained and educated that someone unarmed are still potential threats until an arrest is made. FBI murder stats: 726 deaths in 2011

Brown attacked Wilson in the police car, punched him, and possibly reached for his gun--which on it's own rights is enough to get you killed (verified by forensics)

He wasn't a giant compared to Officer Wilson. So, no, not in this case. Not a GIANT.

You're ignoring weight, again.

He wasn't a huge man compared to Wilson. I think to say someone SHOULD BE KILLED for using his fists is incredible unfair to say, and I think it's an ignorant thing to say. If under ever single case, someone shot an unarmed person...that would be a horrible defense. It wouldn't hold up because it's laughable. Police officers have a difficult job, so assessing if they're in a life threatening situation is part of the defense that goes into any of their shooting.

First statement is just not true.
If you attack someone else, regardless if you are armed or not, the person you are attacking has the right to apply whatever force is necessary to defend themselves. This does hold up in court...many times. Last part, well, yes that goes without saying. The key is not that the situation itself was life threatening, using the power of hindsight that his injuries weren't that severe--of course not because he shot Brown, it could have been worse if there is a prolonged struggle--but whether at the time that it was occuring you felt your life is threatened.

Getting attacked by Michael Brown and having a likely, according to DNA evidence supporting this story, wrestle for your side arm IS life threatening. Not only that but Brown can be considered a threat to others as well, which was actually proven moments before the incident even happened. So as that moment is occuring, no hindsight, you are the person to make the decision to shoot. Officer Wilson made that decision, and the law supports that decision too

I think someone who is fearful of being killed by a fist is probably a coward whose never been in a fight, or is really small and easily overmatched.

I guess police officers should kill people more often, what with all those people walking around with their lethal weapon hands...

Not a coward but someone who actually knows how dangerous someone can be. Blows to the head are SERIOUS. You don't even have to be smaller than your attacker, and to say such a thing is....well, I have to keep saying it...narrowminded.

Now I didn't, so there you go.

I think your argument about his fists being lethal doesn't hold up. I've seen the video, and he strong armed someone who was much smaller than him. Wilson isn't. It sounds to me like you're saying that Brown deserved to be killed because he COULD have been dangerous, which is absurd.

You need to try and not be so paranoid about everyone's fists all being 'lethal weapons'. You could even argue that him going for Wilson's gun, which Wilson testified to, could be more of a reason.

The "I was afraid of his fists" defense seems laughable to me.

FBI murder stats: 726 deaths in 2011 due to hands, feet...murders by people who are unarmed

I didn't say anyone deserved to be killed, stop being silly, but that Officer Wilson's decision to kill Brown falls within the confines of law.
Brown was certainly a physical threat, forcefully robbed a store, attacked a police officer, possibly reached for his gun (again, evidence I linked shows struggle happened in officer Wilson's vehicle). The "kid" was no angel

The last statement is such a silly oversimplification. It baffles me if you can actually be seriously this naive

 

[Sun_Down]

Honest query to the pro-Wilson crowd: why did he not avail himself of the simple protection of, ya know, rolling his window up and locking his door? I mean, if he was so scurrred and everything.

 

[Howlett]

Honest query to the pro-Wilson crowd: why did he not avail himself of the simple protection of, ya know, rolling his window up and locking his door? I mean, if he was so scurrred and everything.

Because it's his job to apprehend criminals? Mike Brown being one. Civilians have that luxury and can run away. Police aren't supposed to do that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Honest query to the pro-Wilson crowd: why did he not avail himself of the simple protection of, ya know, rolling his window up and locking his door? I mean, if he was so scurrred and everything.

He was attempting to arrest Brown for being a criminal. He was doing his job, and Brown not only did not cooperate, but assaulted him and allegedly went for his gun.

That's a pretty big 18 year old. I can understand the perception from somebody being attacked by somebody that size that being that they could die from the altercation. Whether the cop was within his rights I'm not sure, but I'd feel similar urgency if I was the one being attacked.

That's exactly right.
I have said this multiple times before and I think it bears repeating: I in no way condone the killing of an unarmed teenager, but if you are going to condemn the officer for using lethal force when defending himself from someone of that size, who by all accounts was assaulting the officer and reaching for his gun, then I'd love to see how you would handle that same situation and where you would stand in the heat of the moment.
I really do not think this was a race thing at all until the media painted it that way. No one here is claiming that racism doesn't exist, but if Mike Brown was white, or the officer was Black, I have a feeling the altercation would have turned out the exact same way.
Only difference? The media would not have gone into a frenzy over it and none of us here would even know that it happened. This is not a Trayvon Martin situation where the deceased did nothing wrong; this guy was clearly a criminal, and a violent one at that, and that is what led to his death, not the color of his skin.
*prepares for a tidal waves of angry posts*

 

[SuperT]

I'm sorry but you really think the situation would have turned out the same if Mike Brown was white and the officer was black? I have a million bridges in New York to sell to you because that statement is BS to the nth degree.

Wilson said Brown "looked like a demon." A DEMON.

 

[chaseter]

There is no looting during peaceful protests...to all the people saying protestors and looters aren't the same. A violent protest is called a riot. These are all rioters and looters.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'm sorry but you really think the situation would have turned out the same if Mike Brown was white and the officer was black? I have a million bridges in New York to sell to you.

I can't look into my crystal ball and make a definitive claim (and neither can you) but let's look at what we know: The officer attempted to make an arrest, the suspect got violent and attacked the officer, and the officer defended himself from said criminal who was physically imposing and reaching for his gun.
Yeah I really can't look at that and say he died because of the color of his skin, he died because of his poor judgement. Obviously it is a tragedy either way, the killing of an unarmed teenager is nothing to condone, but I don't think this was a race thing at all until the media hyped it up to be one before they had all the facts.

 

[SuperT]

I can't look into my crystal ball and make a definitive claim (and neither can you) but let's look at what we know: The officer attempted to make an arrest, the suspect got violent and attacked the officer, and the officer defended himself.
Yeah I really can't look at that and say he died because of the color of his skin, he died because of his poor judgement. Obviously it is a tragedy either way, the killing of an unarmed teenager is nothing to condone, but I don't think this was a race thing at all until the media hyped it up to be one before they had all the facts.

But you seem to be completely ignoring the already corrupted history of the Ferguson police department, their already fractured relationship with the Ferguson community as well as their already apparent racial biases over the years. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck.

The fact that you can just simply brush off as "No it's not racist" without taking any sort of context info consideration is baffling, but not surprising in the least.

 

[dodgers2213]

Wilson said Brown "looked like a demon." A DEMON.

Focus on the minutiae when all the evidence does not support the innocent, unarmed teen murdered in cold blood?

So what if Wilson said that? Obviously the point he was making was the Brown acted in a menacing manner. I don't think I would have used "demon" as a description if I was interviewed but I'm not Wilson.

 

[Flint Marko]

But you seem to be completely ignoring the already corrupted history of the Ferguson police department, their already fractured relationship with the Ferguson community as well as their already apparent racial biases over the years. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a freakin' duck.

The fact that you can just simply brush off as "No it's not racist" without taking any sort of context info consideration is baffling, but not surprising in the least.

You're also overlooking the "context" that Mike Brown had an imposing physique, was a criminal, was violent, and non-cooperative with the police officer who was trying to arrest him.
I think that takes precedence to the divide that exists in the town. I don't think either party was thinking about the racial tension during said altercation, I think the officer was doing his job trying to arrest a criminal, things got violent, the officer panicked, and defended himself.
The media jumped on the situation because the witnesses original claims were that Mike Brown was "surrendering to the officer" but was shot anyways. This turned out to be dubious at best, but by that point it was already a hot button topic and people were in an outrage when truth be told they did not have all the facts.
And you know what? The people who were presented with the facts and had time to deliberate and come to a decision decided there wasn't any wrong-doing. That says a lot.

Focus on the minutiae when all the evidence does not support the innocent, unarmed teen murdered in cold blood?

So what if Wilson said that? Obviously the point he was making was the Brown acted in a menacing manner. I don't think I would have used "demon" as a description if I was interviewed but I'm not Wilson.

Regardless, the fact that he used the word "demon" tells me that he was scared. It doesn't show me that he was racist, just that he was attacking by someone who was aggressive and it clearly scared him.
But once again, that's my interpretation and is up for debate.

 

[Asgard]

Article that goes into some detail of how incredulous Wilson's story is as well as some of its inconsistencies.

Also has pictures of Wilson's face after the "brutal" attack by Mike whom Wilson described as a demon.

 

[Morg]

Asgard, I removed that link. The story had a bit too much language that get censor here