Riots in Missouri - Part 2

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Police officer in Phoenix killed an unarmed Black man on Tuesday. The police in Phoenix say they're trying to be very transparent about the whole thing. I'm living in Phoenix right now, and I imagine we'll bet getting our fair share of protests, some of which have already started. Not sure how that'll turn out. Sherriff Arpaio down here in Phoenix is a psychopath already, so I can't imagine he'll handle protests with too much grace.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...er-phoenix-police-kill-rumain-brisbon-n261836
 
I don't know how anyone could defend that cop in the Garner death. It's not even close. He used an illegal choke hold after the guy was saying he couldn't breath. They were better off tasering the guy. He could have possibly died but you have a murder on tape and he got away with it. Sad thing is the guy who filmed it mysteriously has gun charges. It's hard to know if it's retaliation or not because some of these guys have some checkered past so you don't know if the cop is planting crap or if the guy was going about his life as usual.

I swear the conspiracy theorist in me wants to believe that all these stories that are coming out now are just ways to get people, especially black, to riot to bring about a police state. All it takes now is for a black celebrity to get killed and it's going to be on.
 
I don't know how anyone could defend that cop in the Garner death. It's not even close. He used an illegal choke hold after the guy was saying he couldn't breath. They were better off tasering the guy. He could have possibly died but you have a murder on tape and he got away with it. Sad thing is the guy who filmed it mysteriously has gun charges. It's hard to know if it's retaliation or not because some of these guys have some checkered past so you don't know if the cop is planting crap or if the guy was going about his life as usual.

I swear the conspiracy theorist in me wants to believe that all these stories that are coming out now are just ways to get people, especially black, to riot to bring about a police state. All it takes now is for a black celebrity to get killed and it's going to be on.

We're already pretty close to a police state. I'm an anti-conspiracy theorist and even I can see the signs. I really won't be surprised if they move faster to strip us of our rights. Just look at what's happening in New York with 200+ people arrested for protesting this injustice.
 
We're already pretty close to a police state. I'm an anti-conspiracy theorist and even I can see the signs. I really won't be surprised if they move faster to strip us of our rights. Just look at what's happening in New York with 200+ people arrested for protesting this injustice.

It's sad. You think these deaths are being pushed by the media for some other agenda? There's a part of me that really thinks that because it's like every day there's a different person they are putting out there. Not all cops are bad and when you need help for a crime being committed, who do you call? Cops! Remove them, especially in the ghetto, and you have straight anarchy.
 
He used a chokehold that is banned. How is that not intent to do harm?

And I am done with the excuse that someone was "resisting". He wasn't fighting them. He was being harassed by cops and then they physically assaulted. Having a badge does not make that legal.

The video did not show that the police officers were intending to do anything other than restrain Mr. Garner. The unfortunate truth is that in order to stick someone with strangulation and murder charges, there has to be intent to kill them. That is not what occurred.

As for the police hassling him, Mr. Garner was currently out on bail for numerous offenses, including driving without a license, false personifcation, possession of marijuana, and selling untaxed cigarette at the time of his death.

The issue of the cigarettes seems silly, but it's actually a major problem in New York, with people stealing cigarettes and selling them on the street. First of all, the thefts damage the local economy, and the state loses out on a ton of money when people don't pay taxes for those products.

Mr. Garner had numerous complaints from stores, where he would intimidate shop owners, and then sell cigarettes to their customers.

So no, the police were not hassling Mr. Garner. He was breaking the law, and they were within their rights to engage with him. What followed after was not appropriate, but I will not support the idea that Mr. Garner was just hanging out, and was a victim of random police brutality. That simply wasn't the case.

So then he must have been crazy...


How could it have been better than a trial?

Wilson had the prosecution on his side, and Wilson not filling out a report (which is, to my understanding, supposed to be protocol in most police shooting) seems like it could have been a benefit.

To your first question: Yes, the grand jury is better than a trial jury. Even if the DA was reluctant to prosecute, there is no defense in a grand jury case. So the grand jury got to ask questions, were allowed to see all the evidence, and were able to weigh and make a decision based on that.

Half those witness statements would have probably been suppressed, if it had gone to trial. Some of the science may not have been allowed in.

And to be honest, the charge of murder would have been a waste of time. I don't believe Michael Brown's case even meets the standard for manslaughter. This case should never even have gone to a grand jury.

The other thing you mentioned was the police report. A union lawyer advised Wilson to not fill one out immediately. He followed that advice, as is his right. He did eventually file a report about ten days later.

My point, however, was that it wasn't a court case the way most people would consider it. People think of a two sided argument, when it was just a one sided argument.

Well, yes, it's true that it wasn't a true court case. This allowed all the evidence, and other things that typical juries wouldn't get to hear. And as I said, the fact that it was one-sided was actually better.

Yeah, which is makes the lying from the NYPD union leader...and numerous people making the stupid argument that it wasn't a chokehold (or maybe these people don't know what a chokehold is?). And yeah, he wasn't resisting.

Yes he was resisting. He swatted at the officers, and refused to go down, even when there were three of them on him at one point. Resisting arrest doesn't mean that you actively engage in beating the officers. It means that if you don't comply with the arrest, you are resisting.

I mean, the most shocking thing about this is you have a civilian that can be murdered on camera...and there's not even a trial. He doesn't even get fired.

Killing an innocent civilian doesn't seem to be a reason to get fired by the NYPD...

Again, Mr. Garner was not an innocent civilian. And he wasn't murdered. He was accidentally killed when people were being reckless. It may seem like a fine line to you, but it's an important one.

I'm all for stopping police brutality, but I absolutely cannot stand when people lie, mislead, or repeat fiction as truth in order to support their position.
 
Police officer in Phoenix killed an unarmed Black man on Tuesday. The police in Phoenix say they're trying to be very transparent about the whole thing. I'm living in Phoenix right now, and I imagine we'll bet getting our fair share of protests, some of which have already started. Not sure how that'll turn out. Sherriff Arpaio down here in Phoenix is a psychopath already, so I can't imagine he'll handle protests with too much grace.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...er-phoenix-police-kill-rumain-brisbon-n261836

Protestors will put the Hitler stache on photos of the Sheriff and/or using the power of computers, will have him do the Nazi salute or wear a Nazi uniform.
 
We're already pretty close to a police state. I'm an anti-conspiracy theorist and even I can see the signs. I really won't be surprised if they move faster to strip us of our rights. Just look at what's happening in New York with 200+ people arrested for protesting this injustice.


Have you ever lived in a police state? We are NO WHERE NEAR that............................ yet.
 
If it was a police state, anybody who wasn't white would be rounded up by the police. That hasn't happened. Many of the cases have involved white cops killing black people (hence "Black Lives Matter").

While there are probably some cases, Asians and Latinos have not felt the brunt of the police brutality, although I've seen plenty of Asians and Latinos (As well as Whites) being involved in the recent protests. Not sure about the Latinos, but Asian Americans would not be as unified as African Americans if the victims were Asian instead of Black.

Besides, if the US was to be a police state, the rest of the world (probably including our closets allies) would call the US hypocrites.
 
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If it was a police state, anybody who wasn't white would be rounded up by the police. That hasn't happened. Many of the cases have involved white cops killing black people (hence "Black Lives Matter").

While there are probably some cases, Asians and Latinos have not felt the brunt of the police brutality, although I've seen plenty of Asians and Latinos (As well as Whites) being involved in the recent protests. Not sure about the Latinos, but Asian Americans would not be as unified as African Americans if the victims were Asian instead of Black.

Besides, if the US was to be a police state, the rest of the world (probably including our closets allies) would call the US hypocrites.

Disagree about Latinos. They have felt it along with blacks. Some for being assumed to be illegal, others just for looking hood.
 
If it was a police state, anybody who wasn't white would be rounded up by the police. That hasn't happened. Many of the cases have involved white cops killing black people (hence "Black Lives Matter").

While there are probably some cases, Asians and Latinos have not felt the brunt of the police brutality, although I've seen plenty of Asians and Latinos (As well as Whites) being involved in the recent protests. Not sure about the Latinos, but Asian Americans would not be as unified as African Americans if the victims were Asian instead of Black.

Besides, if the US was to be a police state, the rest of the world (probably including our closets allies) would call the US hypocrites.

Here in Phoenix Latino's get a whole lot of nightmarish **** happen to 'em. There's a Federal probe on the Sheriff's racist actions towards Latino's. I don't know about any Asian abuse by police forces, but I'm sure it's out there in some variety.
 
Yes he was resisting. He swatted at the officers, and refused to go down, even when there were three of them on him at one point. Resisting arrest doesn't mean that you actively engage in beating the officers. It means that if you don't comply with the arrest, you are resisting.

He didn't look like he was resisting to me. To say he swatted at officers makes it sound like he attacked one of them, and he didn't do that.

I think whatever resistance can be argued probably came from the natural reaction of a human being being choked to death.

Again, Mr. Garner was not an innocent civilian. And he wasn't murdered. He was accidentally killed when people were being reckless. It may seem like a fine line to you, but it's an important one.

I'm all for stopping police brutality, but I absolutely cannot stand when people lie, mislead, or repeat fiction as truth in order to support their position.

I'd consider him an innocent civilian. I wouldn't call him a criminal just for selling loose cigarettes.But, if you want to call him a criminal...then go ahead, if it makes you feel better.

And he was murdered. We saw him get choked to death by an animal who has should be in jail.

Anybody without a badge, gets filmed doing that...it wouldn't be called "accidental" at all. The guy said he couldn't breathe because he was being choked to death. I think the term is weighted, and therefore I wouldn't use it on a guy that was supposedly selling loose cigarettes. So, let's keep what he was allegedly doing in perspective.

I agree, too. I cannot stand when people lie, mislead, or repeat fiction as truth to support their position.

If a man is being choked to death and is struggling to say he cannot breathe...and then dies because he was choked to death...saying it was an accident is a lie. He kept saying he couldn't breathe. He kept saying it. And he the pressure continued to be applied.

I mean...pretending like that thug cop didn't know what he was doing is ridiculous to me, sorry.
 
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Have you ever lived in a police state? We are NO WHERE NEAR that............................ yet.

Well, it might depend on your perspective. I mean, we're not there yet. But, we seem to be getting closer to it. I'm not sure where people stand on these things with the federal government, but here in New York the NYPD has (and to my knowledge continues to) perform illegal surveillance and monitoring of New Yorkers because of their religious beliefs, and cultural background.

There were instances during the Occupy movement, where the NYPD cleared out all media from the shantytowns that were in the city, and proceeded to break heads. And in Ferguson, during the peaceful protesting we saw that small town police department look like a military platoon in Iraq.

I mean...yeah, I agree we're not there. And these things I just mentioned I think could be argued and defended (although, the NYPD acting like the NSA...I'm not sure that can be), but I can see why people would be led to think so.

It probably has more to do with how the last twenty years of learning how the federal government runs surveillance on all of us...and how that concept would have just been accepted in some sci-fi movie, and not real life. I think Americans are just cynical about it all.
 
He didn't look like he was resisting to me. To say he swatted at officers makes it sound like he attacked one of them, and he didn't do that.

I think whatever resistance can be argued probably came from the natural reaction of a human being being choked to death.
He certainly was not cooperating. If he would have just let them handcuff him, he wouldn't have had to be dragged to the ground in the first place. He was resisting and that's what led to him being dragged to the ground.

I'd consider him an innocent civilian. I wouldn't call him a criminal just for selling loose cigarettes.But, if you want to call him a criminal...then go ahead, if it makes you feel better.
You can consider him whatever you want, that doesn't mean you're right. He was breaking the law. It may be a stupid law, but we don't get to pick and choose which laws we want to obey.

And he was murdered. We saw him get choked to death by an animal who has should be in jail.
Manslaughter, not murder. The officer was doing his job restraining a man who was resisting arrest.

Anybody without a badge, gets filmed doing that...it wouldn't be called "accidental" at all. The guy said he couldn't breathe because he was being choked to death. I think the term is weighted, and therefore I wouldn't use it on a guy that was supposedly selling loose cigarettes. So, let's keep what he was allegedly doing in perspective.
Do you know how many times cops hear "stop you're hurting me," or "I can't breathe," only to have the perp get up and try to run away again?

I agree, too. I cannot stand when people lie, mislead, or repeat fiction as truth to support their position.

If a man is being choked to death and is struggling to say he cannot breathe...and then dies because he was choked to death...saying it was an accident is a lie. He kept saying he couldn't breathe. He kept saying it. And he the pressure continued to be applied.

I mean...pretending like that thug cop didn't know what he was doing is ridiculous to me, sorry.
As I said before, people lie to police all the time. They aren't mind readers and I seriously doubt this officer killed this man on purpose. That being said, he still should be charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter? Negligence? Wrongful death? Something.
 
So, it's looking like Akai Gurley death could be the next incident that keeps this dialogue going. It's being reported that the rookie cop who shot and killed him, began texting his union representative, instead of calling for help, as Gurley laid dying in the stairwell.
 
He certainly was not cooperating. If he would have just let them handcuff him, he wouldn't have had to be dragged to the ground in the first place. He was resisting and that's what led to him being dragged to the ground.

He was having a dispute with police. He was not posing a threat, and nobody was in immediate danger. And it looked like he got dragged to ground because the officer who killed him was short.

You can consider him whatever you want, that doesn't mean you're right. He was breaking the law. It may be a stupid law, but we don't get to pick and choose which laws we want to obey.

Fine. But, I would make the distinction because context matters. I feel like it matters, too, because someone who is killed while violently attacking someone (which is an aggravated offense), and someone who is killed for jaywalking (a low level offense) should be part of the conversation. There's something wrong in New York, with how the NYPD treats civilians and perhaps low level offenses are tackled is key to it.


Manslaughter, not murder. The officer was doing his job restraining a man who was resisting arrest.

He didn't need to restrain him. Unless the officer had somewhere to be and couldn't spend the time in handling the situation without force.

Do you know how many times cops hear "stop you're hurting me," or "I can't breathe," only to have the perp get up and try to run away again?

And yet...Garner died because he couldn't breathe.

There's no way that officer could believe that Garner could get away if he stopped choking him. There were alot of officers, accessories some would say, and there's no way Garner would be able to pickhimself up and run away from that many officers who are armed and in way better shape than him.

That thug cop is an animal who ignored the dying please of the man he killed.

As I said before, people lie to police all the time. They aren't mind readers and I seriously doubt this officer killed this man on purpose. That being said, he still should be charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter? Negligence? Wrongful death? Something.

Personally, I wish I could agree with you. But, man...I just think about Garner's pleas. The officer was being told that the man he was choking couldn't breathe, and all he had to do was ease up.

It's the pleas from him, he was saying he couldn't breathe. That's what gets me. That's where I see it, personally, though. But, I do think it could be argued in a court of law. Now...could it be won? I could see how it wouldn't, and understand that. So, you definitely have me there.

But, I agree with you on your final point. It seemed like negligence or involuntary manslaughter should have been easy. There's a report that, however, that the prosecutor didn't seek negligence or involuntary manslaughter at all.
 
Hmmmm....

I wonder if Trevis Austin and Dillon Taylor will get this much coverage, or a comment from the President?

Meh, probably not...
 
I wish they were included, because it gives a larger picture of the systemic problem we have. But, as we see with all these situations someone can always find a way to defend the actions.

But, the disproportionate rate in which people of color are killed by police officers is hard to defend, and that seems to be driving the anger and frustration we're seeing. Seeing the volume, instead of case by case, is really, really, really hard to ignore even by our society, that one could argue have short attention spans.

And the continuous deaths of black people since Brown's death...there was Eric Garner, John Crawford (shot in a walmart for carrying a pellet gun, in an open carry state), Levar Jones (who survived, and we got that shocking dashcam video of), Darren Hunt, Tamir Rice (holding a pellet gun in an open carry state as well), VonDerrit Myers, Akai Gurley...

I think since the Brown shooting, there's been another shooting of a black civilian that occurs and gets picked up nationally. So, that plays a role in this.

I'll say this, too. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Ohio. Apparently, Ohio has some of the most pathetic, horribly trained, violent and abusive police force in the country. Hearing about some of the ridiculous things that they've gotten away with, against both white civilians and minorities, is incredible.
 
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In the context of that video and what we know before he was dead (He didn't just commit another crime before the video), Eric Garner was NOT a criminal.

Michael Brown was different however, he robbed a store before the encounter with Wilson. Michael Brown in the context was a criminal.
 
I wish they were included, because it gives a larger picture of the systemic problem we have. But, as we see with all these situations someone can always find a way to defend the actions.

But, the disproportionate rate in which people of color are killed by police officers is hard to defend, and that seems to be driving the anger and frustration we're seeing. Seeing the volume, instead of case by case, is really, really, really hard to ignore even by our society, that one could argue have short attention spans.

And the continuous deaths of black people since Brown's death...there was Eric Garner, John Crawford (shot in a walmart for carrying a pellet gun, in an open carry state), Levar Jones (who survived, and we got that shocking dashcam video of), Darren Hunt, Tamir Rice (holding a pellet gun in an open carry state as well), VonDerrit Myers, Akai Gurley...

I think since the Brown shooting, there's been another shooting of a black civilian that occurs and gets picked up nationally. So, that plays a role in this.

I'll say this, too. I'm surprised more people aren't talking about Ohio. Apparently, Ohio has some of the most pathetic, horribly trained, violent and abusive police force in the country. Hearing about some of the ridiculous things that they've gotten away with, against both white civilians and minorities, is incredible.
I don't like Bill O'Reilly, at all, but these stats are from the
Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC and the FBI Census Bureau which disagree with your assertion.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1651665/bi...cks-are-killed-by-police-officers-every-year/

"Police killings of blacks down 70 percent in last 50 years
In 2012, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun
In 2012, 326 whites were killed with a gun
In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders
In 2013, whites committed 4,396 murders
Whites are 63 percent of the population blacks are 13 percent"
 
I like how people think they know facts to further an agenda they heard on tv or some dumb blog post.

Not to you howlett. You have cold hard facts.
 
I don't like Bill O'Reilly, at all, but these stats are from the
Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC and the FBI Census Bureau which disagree with your assertion.


http://www.inquisitr.com/1651665/bi...cks-are-killed-by-police-officers-every-year/

"Police killings of blacks down 70 percent in last 50 years
In 2012, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun
In 2012, 326 whites were killed with a gun
In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders
In 2013, whites committed 4,396 murders
Whites are 63 percent of the population blacks are 13 percent"

...those numbers are terrible. There are 6 times as many white people as there are black people.

If they were shooting blacks at the same rate as whites, they would be shooting more than 700 white people every year.

So either cops are not shooting enough white people, or they're shooting way too many black people.
 
...those numbers are terrible. There are 6 times as many white people as there are black people.

If they were shooting blacks at the same rate as whites, they would be shooting more than 700 white people every year.

So either cops are not shooting enough white people, or they're shooting way too many black people.
That's what you take from those numbers?
 
That police are killing a disturbing disproportionate number of black people? Yes.

Especially considering that is only gun related deaths. Eric Garner wouldn't even make that list.
 
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