The Dark Knight Rises Roven: Joker Could Return

[Ace of Knaves]

how did i miss his points exactly? and what are you, pearce's agent??

take another look at my original thread concerning the riddler character, and allow your mind to grasp reality. the character doesnt lend itself to a strong storyline, nor does he represent anything remotely dramatic.

halle berry as catwoman, 2 minute cameo?Z now we're talking!

Yea but you are thinking about the riddler straight out of the comments. Go and read my ideas for him.

Nolan adapts villains to suit his world.

 

[RockyBatboa]

What is joker going to bring to the table that he did not bring in TDK?

that any other character can't bring? Other than "He's the joker"? What will he teach Batman that he hadnt taught him in BB?

If you can answer those the questions, then you might have a case

What would he bring? A SECOND interesting story, and dramatic situation. What would the riddler bring?....

oh yeah, i forgot, some stupid riddles

 

[Ace of Knaves]

What is joker going to bring to the table that he did not bring in TDK?

that any other character can't bring? Other than "He's the joker"? What will he teach Batman that he hadnt taught him in BB?

If you can answer those the questions, then you might have a case

I'm not sure specifically what he could bring to the table. Thats the job for the Nolans.

What i'm trying to say, and what i've been trying to say for the last 10 minutes is this.

With Batman being hunted, being a fugitive there is a risk he will be killed or arrested by cops. Not to mention another villain.

Would the Joker from the comics allow this? Would he allow someone else to kill Batman? Would he even want Batman dead atall? I think you will find the answer is no to all three of them questions.

Now, would Joker take that risk? Would he risk letting the man who "completes him", the man who gives his life purpose be killed or arrested? No, he wouldn't. If that happened then, well, what other reason has he got to live? He would do anything, absolutely anything to negate that risk wouldn't he? Do you think a cell door would stop someone like the Joker? No it would not.

What's he gonna do? Sit in his cell praying that no one gets to Batman before him? Or take some action?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

What would he bring? A SECOND interesting story, and dramatic situation. What would the riddler bring?....

oh yeah, i forgot, some stupid riddles

Seriously. The Riddler doesn't have to be exactly like he is in the comics!!!!!!!!

****ing hell, it's like talking to a brick wall. Go and read my story and other peoples stories for the Riddler in the thread I mentioned. Then come back and tell me he is all about "stupid riddles"

 

[The Batman]

No i haven't admitted defeat, and I won't.

You are comparing Scarecrow to Joker? Do me a favour!!

Scarecrow was shown in TDK to not be motivated by Batman. He's turned into a frickin drug dealer.

Joker's sole purpose in life is to torment Batman. Scarecrow doesn't share that does he? As Joker said himself "You complete me!!". Do you think he would take the risk that the man who "completes him" could get killed or arrested by someone other than him? No chance, no chance.

Uh....why do you think Scarecrow became a drug dealer in the first place? His operations, just like every other crook, is influenced by Batman...were it not for Batman, he would still be in a high position at arkham. You dont think Scarecrow would have an axe to grind with Batman? Scarecrow dosent have joker's balls nor Ras to back him up, and thats why he's dealing drugs and hiding from The Batman.

But this is all distraction because you dont want to acknowledge that there really isnt a reason for joker to come back. Nolan's finished with his character, imo, and he dosent have to. You can recite the same old story points that everyone else has concerning joker/batman, but at the end of the day, joker popping up in another batman movie would end up being cliche and ultimately weaker than tdk, regardless of the reasons for joker coming back

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Uh....why do you think Scarecrow became a drug dealer in the first place? His operations, just like every other crook, is influenced by Batman...were it not for Batman, he would still be in a high position at arkham. You dont think Scarecrow would have an axe to grind with Batman? Scarecrow dosent have joker's balls nor Ras to back him up, and thats why he's dealing drugs and hiding from The Batman.

But this is all distraction because you dont want to acknowledge that there really isnt a reason for joker to come back. Nolan's finished with his character, imo, and he dosent have to. You can recite the same old story points that everyone else has concerning joker/batman, but at the end of the day, joker popping up in another batman movie would end up being cliche and ultimately weaker than tdk, regardless of the reasons for joker coming back

I'm not sure specifically what he could bring to the table. Thats the job for the Nolans.

What i'm trying to say, and what i've been trying to say for the last 10 minutes is this.

With Batman being hunted, being a fugitive there is a risk he will be killed or arrested by cops. Not to mention another villain.

Would the Joker from the comics allow this? Would he allow someone else to kill Batman? Would he even want Batman dead atall? I think you will find the answer is no to all three of them questions.

Now, would Joker take that risk? Would he risk letting the man who "completes him", the man who gives his life purpose be killed or arrested? No, he wouldn't. If that happened then, well, what other reason has he got to live? He would do anything, absolutely anything to negate that risk wouldn't he? Do you think a cell door would stop someone like the Joker? No it would not.

What's he gonna do? Sit in his cell praying that no one gets to Batman before him? Or take some action?

 

[RockyBatboa]

I'm not sure specifically what he could bring to the table. Thats the job for the Nolans.

What i'm trying to say, and what i've been trying to say for the last 10 minutes is this.

With Batman being hunted, being a fugitive there is a risk he will be killed or arrested by cops. Not to mention another villain.

Would the Joker from the comics allow this? Would he allow someone else to kill Batman? Would he even want Batman dead atall? I think you will find the answer is no to all three of them questions.

Now, would Joker take that risk? Would he risk letting the man who "completes him", the man who gives his life purpose be killed or arrested?
No, he wouldn't. If that happened then, well, what other reason has he got to live? He would do anything, absolutely anything to negate that risk wouldn't he? Do you think a cell door would stop someone like the Joker? No it would not.

What's he gonna do? Sit in his cell praying that no one gets to Batman before him? Or take some action?

Ok, nerd, settle down.

Since you apparently havent been reading my post, let me repeat myself. I have been AGREEING with you. I'm for the Joker's inclusion in the next movie. They have many different options in going this way. I'd aslo love to see the Catwoman and Black Mask involved, mask as the next crime boss, and catwoman as the thief/female doppleganger of Batman.

...oh yeah, and Halle berry in 2 minute cameo as Riddle Lady. LOL

But definitely bring back the Joker, hunting and killing the police, that are trying to hunt the Batman. In fact, no Joker/Batman rivalry whatsoever, just the Joker killing those hunting the Batman. Can you imagine the dramatic implications?? i'll stop now.

 

[The Batman]

I'm not sure specifically what he could bring to the table. Thats the job for the Nolans.

What i'm trying to say, and what i've been trying to say for the last 10 minutes is this.

With Batman being hunted, being a fugitive there is a risk he will be killed or arrested by cops. Not to mention another villain.

Would the Joker from the comics allow this? Would he allow someone else to kill Batman? Would he even want Batman dead atall? I think you will find the answer is no to all three of them questions.

Now, would Joker take that risk? Would he risk letting the man who "completes him", the man who gives his life purpose be killed or arrested? No, he wouldn't. If that happened then, well, what other reason has he got to live? He would do anything, absolutely anything to negate that risk wouldn't he? Do you think a cell door would stop someone like the Joker? No it would not.

What's he gonna do? Sit in his cell praying that no one gets to Batman before him? Or take some action?

Boy...you must hate it in the thousands upon thousands of the other bat comics where the cops or criminals try to hunt or kill bats...and gasp...JOKER DOSENT POP UP....

So, why arent you complaining about that?

Joker is unnecessary for Batman 3. He does not pose any story function that will be of actual use. you have proved as much

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Ok, nerd, settle down.

Since you apparently havent been reading my post, let me repeat myself. I have been AGREEING with you. I'm for the Joker's inclusion in the next movie. They have many different options in going this way. I'd aslo love to see the Catwoman and Black Mask involved, mask as the next crime boss, and catwoman as the thief/female doppleganger of Batman.

...oh yeah, and Halle berry in 2 minute cameo as Riddle Lady. LOL

But definitely bring back the Joker, hunting and killing the police, that are trying to hunt the Batman. In fact, no Joker/Batman rivalry whatsoever, just the Joker killing those hunting the Batman. Can you imagine the dramatic implications?? i'll stop now.

Who you calling a nerd? I the furthest thing from a "nerd" let me assure you

I'm not arguing with you about the Joker. I'm arguing with you about Riddler.

But I like the last idea you have come up with. Joker hunting the people that are hunting his "play thing". Very interesting.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Boy...you must hate it in the thousands upon thousands of the other bat comics where the cops or criminals try to hunt or kill bats...and gasp...JOKER DOSENT POP UP....

So, why arent you complaining about that?

Joker is unnecessary for Batman 3. He does not pose any story function that will be of actual use. you have proved as much

Yes but this is the films. There isn't a unlimited amount of films in this universe like the comics. It's three films.

How can you not understand where i'm coming from with this argument? Joker hasn't got unlimited comics to wait untill he can get to Batman again. He has one film. He has to take action IMO.

And how do you know he has no more purpose? How do any of us know? You can't make that assuption. You are not one of the Nolan brothers are you?

I'm not going to get anywhere with you am i? Even if Chris Nolan came in here and said exactly the same things you would probably rebuke him as well.

 

[Anjow1060]

Uh....why do you think Scarecrow became a drug dealer in the first place? His operations, just like every other crook, is influenced by Batman...were it not for Batman, he would still be in a high position at arkham. You dont think Scarecrow would have an axe to grind with Batman? Scarecrow dosent have joker's balls nor Ras to back him up, and thats why he's dealing drugs and hiding from The Batman.

But this is all distraction because you dont want to acknowledge that there really isnt a reason for joker to come back. Nolan's finished with his character, imo, and he dosent have to. You can recite the same old story points that everyone else has concerning joker/batman, but at the end of the day, joker popping up in another batman movie would end up being cliche and ultimately weaker than tdk, regardless of the reasons for joker coming back

Even moreso, we got all the necessary components for Batman/Joker story and lifetime relationship. Torment, beatings, laughter, collar grabs, stand offs, insane schemes, Batman becoming one step ahead, Joker getting some kind of last laugh, sacrifice on Batman's part and disdain from everyone else at the both of them.

They're gonna fight forever. Ok. We know that. Can we move on to someone who has a different reason to fight Batman?

Ras - Anger at the rejection of his surrogate "son" or "heir"
Scarecrow - Loss of tons of money and a great occupation to experiment his sick ideas
Zsaz - Batman stopping his kill count, his pride
Joker - Batman is his play-date, someone he takes joy in messing with
2Face - Batman cost him his one true love

They all have reasons to come back. Thus why they're not all dead. But left captured or "ambiguous."

They WILL come back. They just don't need to right now.

- Jow

PS: Besides myself on rare occaision, I've never seen, on any board for that matter, someone lay down an argument because someone convinced them otherwise. I think I made a pretty good case for Joker NOT returning for B3. But w/e, I'm done with this debate. There's a point when a discussion turns to an argument which turns to stubborn refusal to expire.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Seriously. The Riddler doesn't have to be exactly like he is in the comics!!!!!!!!

****ing hell, it's like talking to a brick wall. Go and read my story and other peoples stories for the Riddler in the thread I mentioned. Then come back and tell me he is all about "stupid riddles"

whoa, there, buddy....step away from the window.

Bear with me here. Sit back. Breathe in and out 3 times. Then say "Riddler" out lout 5 times to yourself.



Now, do you not hate the character as much as i do now? Thought so.

Now bear in mind, if you dramatically change the Riddler character, than do you still have the Riddler? NO, you have a much better character, so no Riddler (ARRHH)-realizing is neccesary. However.....

if you're suggesting Tara Reid as "Riddle-Lady" in the next film in a 2 minute cameo refrenceing Joker's comments at the end of the Dark Knight in regards to growing public insanity, i am completely on board.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Boy...you must hate it in the thousands upon thousands of the other bat comics where the cops or criminals try to hunt or kill bats...and gasp...JOKER DOSENT POP UP....

So, why arent you complaining about that?

Joker is unnecessary for Batman 3. He does not pose any story function that will be of actual use. you have proved as much

"Hundreds and THousands" ? Get off the crack, there havent been that many. MOre like dozens, it's a sorely underused theme in the books.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Even moreso, we got all the necessary components for Batman/Joker story and lifetime relationship. Torment, beatings, laughter, collar grabs, stand offs, insane schemes, Batman becoming one step ahead, Joker getting some kind of last laugh, sacrifice on Batman's part and disdain from everyone else at the both of them.

They're gonna fight forever. Ok. We know that. Can we move on to someone who has a different reason to fight Batman?

Ras - Anger at the rejection of his surrogate "son" or "heir"
Scarecrow - Loss of tons of money and a great occupation to experiment his sick ideas
Zsaz - Batman stopping his kill count, his pride
Joker - Batman is his play-date, someone he takes joy in messing with
2Face - Batman cost him his one true love

They all have reasons to come back. Thus why they're not all dead. But left captured or "ambiguous."

They WILL come back. They just don't need to right now.

- Jow

PS: Besides myself on rare occaision, I've never seen, on any board for that matter, someone lay down an argument because someone convinced them otherwise. I think I made a pretty good case for Joker NOT returning for B3. But w/e, I'm done with this debate. There's a point when a discussion turns to an argument which turns to stubborn refusal to expire.

Jow, I'm not arguing for the sake of it. I firmly believe Joker could return for the next one. You don't. No biggy.

But why should I just change my mind to something I don't agree with? Why should you change your mind to something you don't agree with?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

whoa, there, buddy....step away from the window.

Bear with me here. Sit back. Breathe in and out 3 times. Then say "Riddler" out lout 5 times to yourself.



Now, do you not hate the character as much as i do now? Thought so.

Now bear in mind, if you dramatically change the Riddler character, than do you still have the Riddler? NO, you have a much better character, so no Riddler (ARRHH)-realizing is neccesary. However.....

if you're suggesting Tara Reid as "Riddle-Lady" in the next film in a 2 minute cameo refrenceing Joker's comments at the end of the Dark Knight in regards to growing public insanity, i am completely on board.

Tara Reid?!?! Then I would have to disagree with you further!

But please, just check out my rough story that utilizes him. You may be pleasantly surprised. You may not. No biggy. But just check it out.

 

[Mastodon123]

whoa, there, buddy....step away from the window.

Bear with me here. Sit back. Breathe in and out 3 times. Then say "Riddler" out lout 5 times to yourself.



Now, do you not hate the character as much as i do now? Thought so.

Now bear in mind, if you dramatically change the Riddler character, than do you still have the Riddler? NO, you have a much better character, so no Riddler (ARRHH)-realizing is neccesary. However.....

if you're suggesting Tara Reid as "Riddle-Lady" in the next film in a 2 minute cameo refrenceing Joker's comments at the end of the Dark Knight in regards to growing public insanity, i am completely on board.

I starting to feel that more the dramatic the change to a character thats needed, then chances are pretty low for a character to appear in Nolan's film. Nolan's adaptions have been pretty close to the source material.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Who you calling a nerd? I the furthest thing from a "nerd" let me assure you

I'm not arguing with you about the Joker. I'm arguing with you about Riddler.

But I like the last idea you have come up with. Joker hunting the people that are hunting his "play thing". Very interesting.

Oh, get over it. "nerd" is just a kid. meant only to be funny, brother.

I know you're arguing with me over the Riddler and it has been on your part one big gigantic...FAIL.

You also failed to recognize that we are in agreement concerning the Joker, so let's agree to agree, shall we.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Oh, get over it. "nerd" is just a kid. meant only to be funny, brother.

I know you're arguing with me over the Riddler and it has been on your part one big gigantic...FAIL.

You also failed to recognize that we are in agreement concerning the Joker, so let's agree to agree, shall we.

ok no worries.

But please, as i've said. Check out my idea for Riddler. You might not like, or you maybe will. I don't wanna post it in here because this thread is about Joker.

And yea, thanks for the back up.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Tara Reid?!?! Then I would have to disagree with you further!

But please, just check out my rough story that utilizes him. You may be pleasantly surprised. You may not. No biggy. But just check it out.

NO Tara Reid as Riddle Lady? How about the homeless lady that eats frogs behind my house then? would that work for you?

IN all seriousness, you will have to send your Riddler comments to my mail page. It's at [email protected]. I look forward to reading them, man. BUT i warn you, i'm a tough sell when it comes to that character. I'll let you know what i think, though.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

NO Tara Reid as Riddle Lady? How about the homeless lady that eats frogs behind my house then? would that work for you?

IN all seriousness, you will have to send your Riddler comments to my mail page. It's at [email protected]. I look forward to reading them, man. BUT i warn you, i'm a tough sell when it comes to that character. I'll let you know what i think, though.

Ok sweet. I'll send you my rough outline.

 

[Rolf]

I think this thread... Is destined to go on forever.

But seriously, there are many ways in which the Joker could return, however I know in my heart that Nolan won't do it.

Despite his would-be prophetic words at the end of TDK, the Joker's story has been told.

But threat not, it's not the end of the world or proof that there is no life after death, the franchise may yet continue.

Try to think positively people, maybe if they do recast the Joker he won't be that bad. (Though many people will probably judge the movie before they see it and conclude that it will be the Nolan equivilant to Batman and Robin.)

I do however feel that if they do recast him than they might deliberately diviate from Ledger's preformance and do something which would be impossible to swollow, I don't know why I think that way... I just do.

Anyway Nolan has never failed in any signifigant capacity so far, so I think if he does recast The Joker we should at least consider he knows what he's doing.

To where ever Nolan may take these films!

 

[RockyBatboa]

Ace of Knaves-

Okay, i've read the plot specifics and Riddler character ideas, and i'm kind of two sides about the whole issue.

First, as for the riddler, make no mistake, if Nolan will use the character, this is the way to do it. Several months ago i also had mused about some sort of government agent character tracking the Batman, and if you want to reconcile that character with a pre-existing Bat-foe, the Riddler is definitely the guy. However, if the main premise is the gov. agent tracking Batman, why convoult his story by having him become the riddler, when you can instead use the character to better explore Batman, and his effect on Gotham , while under the trials and tribulations of being outcast by the citizens.

Secondly, if the gov. agent just deforms into Riddler(arhh-i hate the name), and tests batman with clues, how do you have an interesting story. essentially, you just have a schmuch pissed about not successfuly hunting the batman, and then becomming more like the Batman. Plus, his downfall ends rather pecuilarly similar to the Joker's arrest in the middle of the "Dark Knight"-seems a tad copied, dont you think.

Third, i think the Joker can find a more interesting way to taunt Batman, then just to reveal the truth about Dent. Sure, than can be part of it, buy there is no sense of dread, it's more akin to a parent (Joker) telling a kid (gotham) there is no santa clause.

I like the DeathStroke inclusion, but not as a hired gun of the Riddler. Existing factions of the League of Shadows could just as well send him out to kill Batman as revenge for bats thwarting their terrorist attack in 'begins.

Overall, not too bad, not too good, needs some work. You have some interesting premises there, but i really do hate the riddler as a character. there's really no need for him, especially with the gov agent idea. he could just be a gov agent, and then you dont have the riddler, you have a gov agent, I(which is actually more interesting) think.

dont take it as a downner, i did enjoy reading it. keep comming up with ideas, man, you may eventually change my mind. I gotta go, catch ya later.

 

[namtaB]

PS: Besides myself on rare occaision, I've never seen, on any board for that matter, someone lay down an argument because someone convinced them otherwise. I think I made a pretty good case for Joker NOT returning for B3. But w/e, I'm done with this debate. There's a point when a discussion turns to an argument which turns to stubborn refusal to expire.

This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. Some people will never stop arguing out of some misplaced sense of self righteousness and others won't stop arguing b/c they're having too much fun. People are destined to do this forever. That's why I rarely read other peoples' replies to my post and even rarer still actually respond to them. In my mind what I say goes and 9 times out of 10 it ends there as far as I'm concerned. I always win with this mindset.

 

[BareYourTeeth]

It's to bad we don't have the Brad Pitt of 95-99 anymore because I don't think there would be any question of if he could play or should he be recasted as the Joker. ala 12 monkeys, Fight Club

And I'm not saying he's a bad actor now because IMO he's still great but I think he's lost his edge and his age is a big factor(he's 45 if you didnt know).

It sucks to think of what could have been

 

[Doc Samson]

I tried to not comment on this anymore, but this is killing me. For a character that's been around as long as the Joker has, it amazes me that so many people seem to think he's "finished." That Nolan constructed the only meaningful Joker story in TDK, and that anything else can't possibly be good, or even necessary. Then in the same breath, they bring up all these second-tier villains who aren't even that interesting in the comics themselves to begin with, and actually think they'll make for a better movie?

The Joker's whole point in TDK, much like it was in The Killing Joke, was to prove that all people, including Batman, are fallible and corruptible. Now, news is out that Batman is on the run for murder, which to the Joker means only two things. Either, Batman really did kill someone and the Joker wins, or two, Batman has to take the wrap for Dent and the Joker wins morally, seeing as how he told Batman how quickly the cops would turn on him, given the opportunity. Regardless, the Joker would be very inclined to escape to confront him once more. We're talking about a criminal who wasn't even locked up for a full night in the last film, a mastermind who had schemes set up all over the place to toy with the cops, the mob, and Batman. You mean to tell me that now, all of a sudden, he decides "that's enough!" and sits in his cell peacefully looking at the walls?

The Joker & Batman's feud is an infinite one. If Mr. J were that easy to dispose of, Batman would've been free from his treachery 60 years ago. Nolan recognized this, and probably left him alive to leave that door open, if he chose to do a third. (which I think was pretty much mapped out the whole time but I digress...) Point being, the character of the Joker is everlasting, full of potential, and not locked into any strict characterization. Just because Ledger played it one way, doesn't mean someone else couldn't come in and do something very different, while still being faithful to the things established in TDK. Someone brought up the idea of another Gotham Knights animated bit that addresses the Joker's whereabouts, which I feel is a great idea. But if Nolan somehow decided that he wanted the Joker back for the next film, I wouldn't be upset about that, or all that surprised........