The Dark Knight Rises Roven: Joker Could Return

[Melkay]

I think I might've used the word 'crucial' out of turn.

Of course Batman stories can be told without the Joker's involvement.

But if Nolan is thinking 'In order for me to feel the passion for working on a third Batman film, the story I want to tell absolutely DOES require seeing the Joker' then he needs to recast.

That I can't disagree with. All I can do is hope that Nolan finds his passion elsewhere.

 

[Ledlunar]

...wow I went out and came back only to see how petty this thread can get....

I can't believe people are pro penguin

 

[Laderlappen]

Fight Club, yes, and Snatch. I already gave him some credit for Snatch, but F.C was all fitcher and norton. Seriously, couldnt you see just about anyone playing the role pitt did in fight club?

Havent seen Babel, but it is on my to rent list. Dont get me wrong, i'm not saying he's a HORRIBLE actor, i'm saying he's only marginally talented, and his name and the Joker dont even belong in the same sentence, but i'll bite my tongue if he's cast and blows me away.

I dont want him to play the Joker either. I just wanted to defend his talent. Many people that dont like him are distracted by his fame and his looks.

 

[Judson Caspian]

Bring a new villain for the third. But The Joker has to be involved as well. No villain is as interesting as The Joker. Not even Two-Face. Although he comes closest.

 

[Sam]

I think that Nolan shouldnt change his mind due the death of Heath Ledger. If he has a story in mind for the third movie that includes Joker, he should go with it.

Ledger sure did an amazing job, but Nolan must be faithfull to his plans for the movie.

 

[Melkay]

Bring a new villain for the third. But The Joker has to be involved as well. No villain is as interesting as The Joker. Not even Two-Face. Although he comes closest.

At this point, I don't really care abou who's the most interesting villain but who can give new elements for the progression of Bruce/Batman. I think the Joker delivered most of what he cand deliver for Bats, at least in term of fresh character relationship, and to return him would be to take away part of the fresh/new/exciting first appearance of the Joker. At this point it would be going through all the "familiar places". Can he do something new? Of course. Would that have the same impact it had on Batman in TDK? Not likely.

Bring more than one new villain. Individually, none of them may be as interesting as the Joker, but the relationship each one of them has with Batman is very rich and, at this point, VERY fresh. Catwoman, for example, she's not as interesting as the prince of crime, but her relationship to Bats is more complex, riveting and interesting than what Batman has with the Joker. Sorry, but that's the truth.

At this point, there many secondary villains whose first appearance would be better than any return from the Joker. Not many people realize that.

 

[Judson Caspian]

If it's a villain who's not as interesting, I don't care. Not when I've already seen the best of them all.

Would that have the same impact it had on Batman in TDK? Not likely.

Depends on what he does.

 

[RockyBatboa]

I dont want him to play the Joker either. I just wanted to defend his talent. Many people that dont like him are distracted by his fame and his looks.

Honestly, i almost wish it were that. it's not. it's his total lack of timing, depth and wit that turns me off. i mean, if he didnt care to take his time in learning these skills, he should have just made a career as a model.

he has presence, and is comfortable in his roles, but so was john wayne, does that make him a great actor. i think not.

 

[RockyBatboa]

Joker. At this point it would be going through all the "familiar places". Can he do something new? Of course. Would that have the same impact it had on Batman in TDK? Not likely.

At this point, there many secondary villains whose first appearance would be better than any return from the Joker. Not many people realize that.

That's it right there. You dont know it would have more or less of an impact. IN fact, in an interview, Nolan has already said he thought the Dark knight was the best way to "Set up" their relationship. Now , tell me, does that sound like he's through with the character?

As for other villians, they're secondary for a reson. Nolan has already chose all the villians that can be realized with strong real world metaphors. Ras, Joker, TwoFace, and ScareCrow. W/ Joker's mention of growing public insanity, this alludes to theese secondary villians making an appearance , but noone would have the same effect as the Joker.

Just because it's been done once and done well is not really a mandation it not be done again. Hey, you're smart, melkay, i'm sure if you thought it through, you could even come up with a few Bat 3-Joker story ideas. Instead of fighting the issue, think about the possibilities.

Nolan has already said he wouldnt be against recasting regardless, in the same interview w/ Oldman where Oldman mentioned the riddler and then said, maybe they wouldnt need the riddler, maybe they'd bring back the joker. interviewer asked nolan if he'd have a problem recasting, nolan said he wouldnt. i think it was an mtv interview-you can find it on youtube

Batman 3- Black Mask, Catwoman, Joker.

 

[Laderlappen]

You cant bash an actor and then ignore all his good roles. Its like bashing Robert De Niro after have only seen The Adventures of Rocky & Bullwinkle and Hide&Seek.

 

[RockyBatboa]

You cant bash an actor and then ignore all his good roles. Its like bashing Robert De Niro after have only seen The Adventures of Rocky & Bullwinkle and Hide&Seek.

I've seen most of Pitt's movies, so it's nothing like that. I havent seen button, james, and babel. If those are his best movies, i'll have to give them a rent, and actually 2/3 are on my rental list anyway because of the themes and innovations (button, babel)

I already said, i gave up on pitt years ago. If he's grown in the last few years, after i watch him in those roles, i'll change my mind about him. it's doubtful though, after his wretched performance in burn.

besisdes, i havent bashed him? I said already he has marginal talent, he just never grew as an actor. He has presence, he's comfortable in his roles , he just lacks dimension, in what i've seen.

 

[Laderlappen]

Those are 3 of his 5 best performances in his career, and those 3 plus BAR(ok you didnt like it) shows why he is in the prime of his career.

 

[Melkay]

If it's a villain who's not as interesting, I don't care. Not when I've already seen the best of them all.

I highly doubt you have. Certainly not when it comes to Penguin or Riddler, and most of Catwoman. Not even in the comics.

 

[Doc Samson]

This was not meant for me but I have to intervene. I have to admit, if Ledger was alive, I would proabbly be eagerly expecting his return.......
..... but that wouldn't make me right.
It's not about proving who's right or wrong in this discussion, so don't try to make it like that, please. It's about the argument, not the arguers.

But see Melkay, this IS the argument in a nutshell, because if Ledger were alive people wouldn't be coming up with all these reasons for the Joker NOT to be in the next film. In fact, I suspect most fans would be angered if he were alive and the Joker didn't return in the next movie. And once you look at it from that perspective, IMO, it makes all these back and forth arguments pretty trite.

Honestly, who would be sitting here coming up with all these scenarios and talking about the Joker being so "used up" and his story being "finished" if Heath were alive? Honestly? My problem is most of these people just won't admit this simple fact, they try and act like they would feel the same way regardless of the situation, and I can't really believe that. I'll give you respect because at least you've came out and said the truth numerous times, I just wish others would do the same, and then we can understand what we're really debating. It's not the merits of another Joker appearance, it's the moral sentiment of allowing Ledger to die with a role he so obviously gave very much to.

To me, this is the argument, because everything said from the opposing side would be absolutely irrelevant if the man were still alive, so what are we really discussing here? The fact that you really, honestly, believe the Joker to be used up and finished as a character for a Nolan film, or the fact that you just don't want to see anyone else in the role?

 

[El Payaso]

But see Melkay, this IS the argument in a nutshell, because if Ledger were alive people wouldn't be coming up with all these reasons for the Joker NOT to be in the next film. In fact, I suspect most fans would be angered if he were alive and the Joker didn't return in the next movie. And once you look at it from that perspective, IMO, it makes all these back and forth arguments pretty trite.

Honestly, who would be sitting here coming up with all these scenarios and talking about the Joker being so "used up" and his story being "finished" if Heath were alive? Honestly? My problem is most of these people just won't admit this simple fact, they try and act like they would feel the same way regardless of the situation, and I can't really believe that. I'll give you respect because at least you've came out and said the truth numerous times, I just wish others would do the same, and then we can understand what we're really debating. It's not the merits of another Joker appearance, it's the moral sentiment of allowing Ledger to die with a role he so obviously gave very much to.

To me, this is the argument, because everything said from the opposing side would be absolutely irrelevant if the man were still alive, so what are we really discussing here? The fact that you really, honestly, believe the Joker to be used up and finished as a character for a Nolan film, or the fact that you just don't want to see anyone else in the role?

Absolutely.

 

[RockyBatboa]

But see Melkay, this IS the argument in a nutshell, because if Ledger were alive people wouldn't be coming up with all these reasons for the Joker NOT to be in the next film. In fact, I suspect most fans would be angered if he were alive and the Joker didn't return in the next movie. And once you look at it from that perspective, IMO, it makes all these back and forth arguments pretty trite.

Honestly, who would be sitting here coming up with all these scenarios and talking about the Joker being so "used up" and his story being "finished" if Heath were alive? Honestly? My problem is most of these people just won't admit this simple fact, they try and act like they would feel the same way regardless of the situation, and I can't really believe that. I'll give you respect because at least you've came out and said the truth numerous times, I just wish others would do the same, and then we can understand what we're really debating. It's not the merits of another Joker appearance, it's the moral sentiment of allowing Ledger to die with a role he so obviously gave very much to.

To me, this is the argument, because everything said from the opposing side would be absolutely irrelevant if the man were still alive, so what are we really discussing here? The fact that you really, honestly, believe the Joker to be used up and finished as a character for a Nolan film, or the fact that you just don't want to see anyone else in the role?

Exactly. It's all in the same vein as 'Nicholson couldnt be topped', and it's all rubbish.

 

[Rasputin911]

But see Melkay, this IS the argument in a nutshell, because if Ledger were alive people wouldn't be coming up with all these reasons for the Joker NOT to be in the next film. In fact, I suspect most fans would be angered if he were alive and the Joker didn't return in the next movie. And once you look at it from that perspective, IMO, it makes all these back and forth arguments pretty trite.

Honestly, who would be sitting here coming up with all these scenarios and talking about the Joker being so "used up" and his story being "finished" if Heath were alive? Honestly? My problem is most of these people just won't admit this simple fact, they try and act like they would feel the same way regardless of the situation, and I can't really believe that. I'll give you respect because at least you've came out and said the truth numerous times, I just wish others would do the same, and then we can understand what we're really debating. It's not the merits of another Joker appearance, it's the moral sentiment of allowing Ledger to die with a role he so obviously gave very much to.

To me, this is the argument, because everything said from the opposing side would be absolutely irrelevant if the man were still alive, so what are we really discussing here? The fact that you really, honestly, believe the Joker to be used up and finished as a character for a Nolan film, or the fact that you just don't want to see anyone else in the role?

You're right. But that's not the situation. The situation is that Ledger is dead, so plans change.

You guys aren't being realistic. Yes, Nolan cares a lot about story/plot, but not the point of making a decision like that. It doesen't matter how much you want Joker back, because he won't be back in this series. If he were replaced, that would be all people (most people/media) talked and cared about for the third film.

Which is why we'll see Joker in future reboots and franchises, with fresh takes, but not again in Nolan's world

 

[Melkay]

But see Melkay, this IS the argument in a nutshell, because if Ledger were alive people wouldn't be coming up with all these reasons for the Joker NOT to be in the next film. In fact, I suspect most fans would be angered if he were alive and the Joker didn't return in the next movie. And once you look at it from that perspective, IMO, it makes all these back and forth arguments pretty trite. Honestly, who would be sitting here coming up with all these scenarios and talking about the Joker being so "used up" and his story being "finished" if Heath were alive? Honestly?

My problem is most of these people just won't admit this simple fact, they try and act like they would feel the same way regardless of the situation, and I can't really believe that. I'll give you respect because at least you've came out and said the truth numerous times, I just wish others would do the same, and then we can understand what we're really debating. It's not the merits of another Joker appearance, it's the moral sentiment of allowing Ledger to die with a role he so obviously gave very much to.

No man, it doesn't, and you should know. The supposed origins of an argument doesn't make the argument itself wrong. On the contrary, many times I've had to agree with conservatives with sound notions that stem from egotistical intentions. But I still can't argue with them when they're right. That you're trying to move this from the actual argument into the the motivations for it doesn't seem good to yoy. I've admitted it, yes, if Ledger were alive, I would probably be expecting him to return... it would be a hypocrisy to deny it. But that wouldn't make me right.

My personal dislike for the lack of continuity have made me carefully consider the pros and cons of actually bringing the Joker back and while some of the downsides would be gone with a Ledger still around (continuity, audience reaction, length of the role, etc.) some fo them are still there, like redundance of the role and stealing screentime from other characters that have not been introduced.

How do you counter that, Doc? It seems you just can't, and are making illogical arguments about the motivations behind being against recast. I could say the same about you, but that wouldn't be valid. I'd say you want a Joker return just because you like the character too much, without considering the rest of the variables... but I don't really care WHY you are saying something as much as WHAT you are saying and if it MAKES SENSE. And you're arguments are not that sound. Which is why you're turning to this. Sorry, no dice.

To me, this is the argument, because everything said from the opposing side would be absolutely irrelevant if the man were still alive, so what are we really discussing here? The fact that you really, honestly, believe the Joker to be used up and finished as a character for a Nolan film, or the fact that you just don't want to see anyone else in the role?

This is simply not true. Not everything. Take a moment to assess the arguments and you'll realize it on your own.

What I really think is that Nolan didn't fully exploit the Joker.... but what is left to work with isn't enough to justify a new appearance. In fact, most (not all) of the plot ideas from the pro-recast people are only small appearances and/or glorified cameos. Why is that? There's not enough there to guarantee a decent return and there's no reason for bringing him back if it's not relevant to the next stage of the story. Everything else would be fan-pleasing.

And, as Rasputin says, we need to deal with the reality here and not hypothetics. With Ledger still alive there would be some arguments against his return... but that's not the case and the arguments are many more.

 

[Judson Caspian]

I highly doubt you have. Certainly not when it comes to Penguin or Riddler, and most of Catwoman. Not even in the comics.

That's your problem. I've read Batman comics and seen the movies since 20 plus years back. I've seen and read about all these villains in different interpretations. None of those you mentioned come even close.

 

[kid dropper]

Seems to me the same folks so utterly opposed to the joker appearing or being recasted in any form are alot of the same ones promoting the return of Two Face. I see a pattern there. Namely over-sentimentality, not being able to let go, etc.Within the world of Nolan's films, Two Face died, and the joker lives to trouble Gotham another day. This is the tragedy and the strength of the film, good falls, evil endures. It is very sad that Ledger is dead, but the clown prince breathes still. Harvey does not. It would be epically ridiculous to undo this dynamic thanks to an event no one could have forseen or had any control over. So recap: Joker= alive, just at the beginning of long and illustrious criminal career. Two Face= dead, arc completed. Heath Ledger= very sadly passed on as well

 

[Goodfellas]

You're right. But that's not the situation. The situation is that Ledger is dead, so plans change.

You guys aren't being realistic. Yes, Nolan cares a lot about story/plot, but not the point of making a decision like that. It doesen't matter how much you want Joker back, because he won't be back in this series. If he were replaced, that would be all people (most people/media) talked and cared about for the third film.

Which is why we'll see Joker in future reboots and franchises, with fresh takes, but not again in Nolan's world

I agree 100%

 

[namtaB]

You're right. But that's not the situation. The situation is that Ledger is dead, so plans change.

You guys aren't being realistic. Yes, Nolan cares a lot about story/plot, but not the point of making a decision like that. It doesen't matter how much you want Joker back, because he won't be back in this series. If he were replaced, that would be all people (most people/media) talked and cared about for the third film.

Which is why we'll see Joker in future reboots and franchises, with fresh takes, but not again in Nolan's world

That's my position as well. Regardless of how one feels about the Joker coming back its undeniable that a lot of baggage will be carried into the next film if he is recast. Baggage which is unnecessary IMO.

 

[Melkay]

That's your problem. I've read Batman comics and seen the movies since 20 plus years back. I've seen and read about all these villains in different interpretations. None of those you mentioned come even close.

I think you don't have the ability to discern potential. What a character has been pales in comparison to what it can be. Even Riddler's and Penguin's best appearances are clearly improvable. It all comes down to what you decide to do with them.

Seems to me the same folks so utterly opposed to the joker appearing or being recasted in any form are alot of the same ones promoting the return of Two Face.

Not all. Not me, certainly, I oppose both thing. If you see the polls in the "Popularity Contests" thread you'll see quite a few peole that voted for "Neither".

I see a pattern there. Namely over-sentimentality, not being able to let go, etc. Within the world of Nolan's films, Two Face died, and the joker lives to trouble Gotham another day. This is the tragedy and the strength of the film, good falls, evil endures. It is very sad that Ledger is dead, but the clown prince breathes still.

I'm sorry, but this is blatant hipocrisy. Wanting to see the Joker again, even when it's uncalled for, can be seen as true over-sentimentality. Evil does not need the reappearance of the Joker to endure in Gotham. I don't require seeing a man to see a man's legacy.

Harvey does not. It would be epically ridiculous to undo this dynamic thanks to an event no one could have forseen or had any control over. So recap: Joker= alive, just at the beginning of long and illustrious criminal career. Two Face= dead, arc completed. Heath Ledger= very sadly passed on as well

Want to see what's ridiculous? The ideas for a brief appearance for a Joker who has done most of the things he's known for in the previous film and breaking the continuity feeling with a new actor that will probably be less talented and more creatively restricted than Ledger.

That's ridiculous.

 

[Steelsheen]

Seems to me the same folks so utterly opposed to the joker appearing or being recasted in any form are alot of the same ones promoting the return of Two Face. I see a pattern there. Namely over-sentimentality, not being able to let go, etc.Within the world of Nolan's films, Two Face died, and the joker lives to trouble Gotham another day. This is the tragedy and the strength of the film, good falls, evil endures. It is very sad that Ledger is dead, but the clown prince breathes still. Harvey does not. It would be epically ridiculous to undo this dynamic thanks to an event no one could have forseen or had any control over. So recap: Joker= alive, just at the beginning of long and illustrious criminal career. Two Face= dead, arc completed. Heath Ledger= very sadly passed on as well

the main reason why recasting Nolan's Joker is strongly opposed by many is because Ledger made such an impression on the role, that whoever actor they would select to replace him will fall short regardless of what he does. nobody is saying that Ledger will be the last Joker period, but with the intensity of his performance Ledger will be the last Joker with the Nolan franchise.

also, regardless if Ledger was alive or not, do we really need to have Joker be the villain of the third movie again? he's been captured, Gordon is now Commissioner, even if Batman is being hunted down i'm pretty sure Gordon wont let Joker escape. he owes Batman that much.



and since they're gonna hire a new actor anyway, why not just get a new villain? it goes with the tradition of Nolan of keeping things new and different. i understand the dynamic between Joker and Batman is one of the best sources to mine a story but geez there are other villains out there. no villain is too small or insignificant with talented writing. they dont even have to stick with the traditional villains-- Catwoman, Riddler, Penguin, how many of the general public new who Ras Al Gul was before BB? all i'm saying is they could grab any villain from the Batman comics-- Hush for example-- and write him in such a way that he could be an even more interesting villain than Joker. its all in the writing.

 

[kid dropper]

well I see what you mean Mel, but im sure if Nolan were to bring Joker back he'd have something valuable planned out. The Joker has done many awful things for 68 years in the comics, are you tired of reading about him? every time he reappears do you say "not this guy again, hasnt he blown his wad already" No you dont. The character is that indispensable. I would be fine if he didnt show up next film, and its runtime could be fully devoted to a set previously unseen characters. But ill be damned if anyones gonna tell me or my boy Nolan that the character is now off limits or no longer viable. There's always room for the Harlequin of Hate when comes to matters transpiring in Gotham town.