You have lost me 100%. Now you're acknowledging that mainstream religions cause just as much, if not more, death than scientology? Doesn't that mean you're giving up the argument?
I have always acknowledged the greater statistics and past crimes of large Religions, so maybe you should comprehend the argument. I doesn't surprise me that you're going off half cocked on this though, since you seem to be making it your personal mission to 'enlighten' everyone in this thread.
Secondly, I didn't try to tell you "what did or didn't happen"? Actually, I think I asked you what happens.
Well you also failled to grasp that I was using it as an example for Willhem that I'm not some perosn that has lived in a bubble and latched onto Scientology as a fad issue, nor am I untouched by what he feels are the immoral major Religons. Hence why I brought up an experience were a friend (Stupidly) died because of Religous pressures of a mainstream religion. I guess it never made me as bitter as someone like Willhem who seems to have a long unfortuante past with Major Religions.
Which absolves it of its historical failings?
Of course not. It's Historical failings. Historical. Failings.
Historical.
You are correct that historically it was previously much more wide spread and a very bad detail in the overall faith.
Ridicule and hyperbole are among the last refuges of the failed arguer. "Space lizards"? Please. Conspiracy doesn't mean tinfoil hats and alien killers. It means government drug dealers, military-industrial complexes, government kickbacks, shadow governments, and war profiteer politicians.
You'll have to forgive me as you language sounded right out of another person I talk to who believes in the Space Lizards. Even so, far reaching shadow governments that may or may not exist still fall under the same umbrella as Space Lizards, for the purpose of what I was talking about anyway. That they may or may not exist and are Boogiemen.
So Scientologists aren't war profiteers? Ok. While I see what you've been getting at since your first reply, it's a pretty flawed argument. Last time I checked we don't omit focus of focus of a smaller trespasser of moral standards simply because there's a war profiteer and a Shadow Government. Ideally, people will bring attention to both of them, or they should, at least. Putting focus on one thing doesn't mean that a person is excluding focus from another. For Instance right now there are worldwide protests against the oppression of Tibiet.
Compared to the machine that exists, your big scary L. Ron Hubbard spectre means nothing.
Didn't we just go over how ridicule and hyperbole are among the last refuges of the failed arguer?
My point's actually pretty obvious to anyone who can think critically. Scientologists don't engage in a lot of the worst abuses that other religions do and did. Find me a Scientologist Inquisition.
You’re talking about Elephant in the room that everyone has already talked about. I knew you were talking about this, but I was hoping you had something more substantive.
I understand your point. Yes major Religions, like I've said have a much larger bloodier history that is a bit beside the point though. The heart of this issue is that this is a very concentrated and centralized group who's trespasses, not only are supporting slave labor (Search up STAFF and Seaorg) in the first world, but many other things that abuse and break the laws of our countries. This is group that people ARE relatively ignorant about. This is a group that has manipulated a threatened the IRS so that Scientology receives more benefits than any Religion in under the US legal system, a violation of the American Constitution. Thus this is a corrupt group that should have attention brought upon just like ANY trespass.
Personal issues? War is a personal issue?
That's not what I meant, you should know that. You're tying a lot of things that you personally hold to a worse opinion as a supposedly rational justification for ignoring this one. That is just flat out wrong in my opinion.
That's not even a response. I said that duping people is normal in a world like this one, which is a pretty obvious truth, and you...what, you laugh me off because I don't have blind faith in my government?
No you inferred that, no wait, let me actually quote you:
"The scientologists are duping a lot of people out of money, but in a world like this one, that doesn't make them anything but normal."
You blatantly inferred that all they are basically doing that is noteworthy (you built up to this by bringing up all these things that you felt are
actual trespasses
worthy consideration) is "Duping money out of people, and that "Doesn't make them anything but normal".
It sort of spits in the face of the people who have been hurt by Scientology (even though that might not be your intent), which flagrantly ignores the issues like Scientology being responsible for the largest known infiltration of the US Government in its short history, and many other abuses and examples of questionable ethics. All in favor of what you deem to be more important issues, as if everything is an either or proposition.
The guy who thinks scientology is coming to destroy the world is making fun of me for being a tinfoil-hat nut?
I have never said that nor do I believe that they have that capacity to 'Destroy the world" as you so un-sensationally put it. What I have said is that they are a relatively small yet dangerous group that the general public is largely ignorant of, therefore they should be exposed and have attention brought upon them for their 'crimes'.
Most people's knowledge of Scientology ends after "Lol Spaceplanes and Celebrities’".
No, you have not. You have posted an extremely biased, self-interested secondary source that links back to very few credible primary sources. And the primaries that it does link back to, don't prove anything except that scientologists die.
Like the LA Times, Coroner reports, State Police Documents, Court files, and countless personal testimonies from Ex Scientologists as well and Scientology documents seized during the raid on their headquarters following Operation Snow White (and plenty of which were actually stolen from the IRS in the first place). The sites I've linked just compile this stuff, I've checked the sources myself for a lot of it.
Revivalists are fringe in the sense that they don't speak for the majority of Christians. They're not fringe in the sense that they do have a very real sphere of political influence. I know you were talking about the revivalists. So was I. You claimed that the revivalists don't exercise undue political influence, don't character-assassinate their enemies, don't defame and harass their critics, etc. And you're wrong. They do. Some revivalists are actually in Congress.
To the same degree, anyone with even a basic grasp of the English language should have picked up on the subtext of what I was saying. Remember the word Centralized? I doubt you'll find the same level of...
organization in the pursuits and trespasses of the Revivalist movement like you do in Scientology. Heck to even phrase it like that is almost unfair to the Revivalist movement though they certainly are no angels.
I didn't say Lisa McPherson never happened. I understand why you'd interpret it that way, because it's clear complexity is a little over your head.
Ridicule-something-something-refuge?
Within the context of it being the fault of Scientology? Undisputable. I was actually not claiming you said it never happened though, I was challenging you on that one to see what your knowledge of it was. So far I'd say: Lacking.
Willhem wanted roughly 100 Scientology related deaths. Maybe you'll get to 20-40 with direct cause and effect (+ another 4 directly this year), but considering the wealth of evidence on the TR/Brainwashing tactics, as well as Scientology’s habit of recruiting mental patients and drug addicts through their front groups like Narcanon (scientology, also professes that medicine is a fraud and their stuff is what actually works. So that means taking Suicidal people off on medication, taking people off of Seizure medication etc) as well as the alarming rate of Suicide within Scientology and testified by, well, the amount of suicides of scientologists and the testimonies of numerous former members. Where's there's smoke there's fire.
Yes there are a huge amount of Suicides every year. Though in the case of Scientology there is an undeniable case to be made for it actually being harmful to an average persons well being, and it's undisputable that they aren't giving people who suffer from chemical imbalances the attention that they should honestly be receiving, drug based or not.
A scientologist dying is not a scientology-related death. Unless a Christian dying is a Christianity-related death.
In terms of suicides, or Schizophrenic children who were denied proper treatment murdering their family? (10 deaths right there if you count the girl in Australian about 2 months ago) You'll find plenty of Scientology related deaths on that site. In fact about the on footnote to the numbers would be that the ones who died of Cancer, well that's dubious as to what number you can draw. Since Cancer can often be terminal, but at the same time Scientology forbids proper treatment of it.
...But...
