Should Loeb's run on the ultimates be retconned?

[fifthfiend]

As over-the-top as Miller/Hitch's run was, Loeb/Mad's take feels like a sloppy caricature.

A caricature of a Millar comic?

That's actually kind of horrifying.

 

[demento]

A caricature of a Millar comic?

That's actually kind of horrifying.

Exactamundo.

 

[El Bastardo]

Spider-Man isn't the enemy though. Cap just left him there in the snow, paralyzed, where any number of people could walk up to him and take off his mask.

Spidey isn't the enemy. Nor is Spidey one of his teammates. Again, your example made no rational sense. Maybe leaving Spidey there isn't the nicest thing to do. Should Cap have taken the time to buy him a taxi ride home? Should he have taken him home himself, akin to saving a damsel in distress? Why, that would have made a most lovely story, I think. So romantic and with oodles of pretty artwork, we could hope. And maybe they could sit down and have tea and talk things out, too!

Cap had more pressing matters to get to, and Ultimate Cap has never wasted time when he had things to do.

Well she must have developed and overcome that eating disorder in the months since Ultimate Power (another Loeb story that defies all logic), as she looks paper thin now. And of course you're ignoring the biggest inconsistency in that she's no longer Asian!

1. Different artists will portray different characters differently. She's also not a supermodel with humongo breastesses the way Land draws every chick. But, by all means, continue to be facetious in an attempt to save face.
2. I did address that she's no longer Asian when I said that I do not necessarily agree with the more-616 look. I just don't really care that much. But since you're utterly awesome, maybe you could write to MAD! and tell him to draw slantier eyes.

First of all, this is Loeb we're talking about--subtext isn't exactly his forte. Secondly, Hawkeye is clearly messed up in the head as we saw in the first issue, so he isn't putting on an act. And finally, it's just bad dialogue: "ever since my family...my kids..." is expository and melodramatic, not subtle.

Yeah, right. Oh, thank you for showing me the light. However did I go through life so disillusioned before now?
You don't have the answers. It could have easily been subtext. Just as easily, Hawkeye could be truly messed up. It could be a mix of both. That scene reeks of Hawkeye trying to be as sarcastic to Spidey as Spidey was to him, and considering I don't remember Hawkeye being overly melodramatic in the first issue, or the rest of the second issue, I'll stay sitting on the bench of "IT WAS A SHOW." Thank you.

Because that's the way a good writer develops his plot, right? Off screen?

I'm pretty sure I could cite a lot of writers, comics and prose, who develop plot elements off-screen. Or take loads of time to develop plot elements. I also said that Quicksilver's revelation could just as easily be revealed in a later issue, considering him slowing down to explain to Wasp everything he knew and how exactly he found everything out wouldn't have made much sense at that point in time. Batman, yes. Quicksilver, no. And even then, Batman, probably not.

Because he has no relevance to the story; he and Venom are only there for no other reason than to draw in casual readers. Millar only pulled in other heroes when it was appropriate.

Yes, because you've either read the scripts of the final three issues or, OHMIGOD, did you write the scripts? You know everything that's going to happen? Oh man, hooksmeup! I'm sorry for being deliberately sarcastic and dismissive, but really... No, nevermind. You won't get it.

Minor? It's a complete departure from his Ultimate character and makes absolutely no sense in the context of the character's history.

Yes, I'll repeat it: minor irritant. Shall I bold it next time?

The fact that Loeb is writing Thor, Wasp, and Iron Man as much as like their 616 counterparts as possible is a clear indicator that the guy is devoid of any ideas of his own; he has completely missed the mark on who these characters are.

Oh sure, yes, that's it. I should've just deleted this rather than quoted it in, but I'm bored.
You know, it's fine to whine and complain about an author's completed work if indeed said completed work warrants such behavior, but when someone's in two issues, there's three to go, and some huge event to follow, one must consider (at least, an intelligent, rational being must consider) that perhaps some things have happened because of reasons, even if those reasons are not currently disclosed.
Otherwise, all one is really doing is throwing a tantrum because they don't like the choices made. In which case, one would be best served by not reading what one does not like, and thus prevent one from having a heart attack.
Don't like it all you want, but insults are childish.

Yeah, I can see how lines like "Suck it!" and "Tee-hee" are truly cream of the crop nowadays.

Every line of dialogue is not "suck it." Do stop generalizing, it looks bad. And it was Sabretooth who said it, who never has been the most eloquent of speakers in any issue of Ultimate X-Men that was written. Well, aside from Kirkman's recent crap, which is just that - crap.

 

[Blader5489]

Spidey isn't the enemy. Nor is Spidey one of his teammates. Again, your example made no rational sense. Maybe leaving Spidey there isn't the nicest thing to do. Should Cap have taken the time to buy him a taxi ride home? Should he have taken him home himself, akin to saving a damsel in distress? Why, that would have made a most lovely story, I think. So romantic and with oodles of pretty artwork, we could hope. And maybe they could sit down and have tea and talk things out, too!

Wow, and you accused me of being facetious in an attempt to save face.

2. I did address that she's no longer Asian when I said that I do not necessarily agree with the more-616 look. I just don't really care that much. But since you're utterly awesome, maybe you could write to MAD! and tell him to draw slantier eyes.

So going by your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable if Tony Stark was all of a sudden black?

You don't have the answers. It could have easily been subtext.

IT'S LOEB! There is nothing subtle to his writing, and there hasn't been for a long time. Again, I refer you back to Ultimate Power, a story that was from subtle and made a complete mess of Ultimate continuity.

I'm pretty sure I could cite a lot of writers, comics and prose, who develop plot elements off-screen. Or take loads of time to develop plot elements. I also said that Quicksilver's revelation could just as easily be revealed in a later issue, considering him slowing down to explain to Wasp everything he knew and how exactly he found everything out wouldn't have made much sense at that point in time. Batman, yes. Quicksilver, no. And even then, Batman, probably not.

Wanda's murder is supposed to be the central plot to the story. To develop a crucial aspect of that plot--that the bullet was programmed to kill Wanda--off panel is lazy storytelling.

Yes, because you've either read the scripts of the final three issues or, OHMIGOD, did you write the scripts? You know everything that's going to happen? Oh man, hooksmeup! I'm sorry for being deliberately sarcastic and dismissive, but really... No, nevermind. You won't get it.

Both Venom and Spider-Man suddenly appeared and were then suddenly dropped. Unless they both return later on and become actually relevant to the story, then they remain what they are now: meaningless and shameless cameos.

Yes, I'll repeat it: minor irritant. Shall I bold it next time?

What point of "a complete departure from his character" strikes you as minor? Like Loeb, I think you've missed the entire point of the Ultimate line.

You know, it's fine to whine and complain about an author's completed work if indeed said completed work warrants such behavior, but when someone's in two issues, there's three to go, and some huge event to follow, one must consider (at least, an intelligent, rational being must consider) that perhaps some things have happened because of reasons, even if those reasons are not currently disclosed.
Otherwise, all one is really doing is throwing a tantrum because they don't like the choices made. In which case, one would be best served by not reading what one does not like, and thus prevent one from having a heart attack.
Don't like it all you want, but insults are childish.

That would all make sense if we were talking about the story (which is why I'm not completely ripping on it yet), but what I'm talking about here is the characterization. Unless there's some grand purpose as to why Thor and Iron Man have become exactly like their 616 counterparts, then there's no other reason for the changes other than Loeb is a lazy writer.

Every line of dialogue is not "suck it." Do stop generalizing, it looks bad.

Do you want me to make a list for you or something?

 

[El Bastardo]

Wow, and you accused me of being facetious in an attempt to save face.

It was sarcastic and dismissive. Not facetious. Thank you.

So going by your logic, it would be perfectly acceptable if Tony Stark was all of a sudden black?

No, because that would be a color change.
And... for rainbow power!

IT'S LOEB! There is nothing subtle to his writing, and there hasn't been for a long time. Again, I refer you back to Ultimate Power, a story that was from subtle and made a complete mess of Ultimate continuity.

Yeah, well, Loeb didn't write all of Ultimate Power. But just to prove that I am capable of rightfully placing blame and proper criticism, I would agree with you if I could. But I can't. Because even having bought and read Loeb's issues of Ultimate Power, I still don't know wutzefex went on.

Wanda's murder is supposed to be the central plot to the story. To develop a crucial aspect of that plot--that the bullet was programmed to kill Wanda--off panel is lazy storytelling.

That would depend on the manner in which the off-screen development was handled. There is no generalization in much of anything, least of all that. It could be done well, it could be done poorly. And no, I'll not answer how it could be done well, so don't bother asking. Rather, read more stuff and find out how. It's done often enough, yes, even with things central to plot.

Both Venom and Spider-Man suddenly appeared and were then suddenly dropped. Unless they both return later on and become actually relevant to the story, then they remain what they are now: meaningless and shameless cameos.

Veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrry good. You deserve a teddy bear!
If they don't return later on, by all means, call them shameless cameos. I'll more than likely disagree, but will nonetheless agree that they would then have been pretty useless to the plot.
But the other issues have not played out yet, and I have a pretty hot inkling both will return. This statement above, however, would nonetheless be a good example of your amending your previously-the-case jumping overboard too early.

What point of "a complete departure from his character" strikes you as minor? Like Loeb, I think you've missed the entire point of the Ultimate line.

What point strikes me as minor? I'm not sure how to answer that. The northeast point, perhaps? Or the southwest point? Lower right? Upper left! There, that's facetious, but not really to save face.
And yes, I missed the point of the Ultimate line. Aww, rats. Or is shucks better?

That would all make sense if we were talking about the story (which is why I'm not completely ripping on it yet), but what I'm talking about here is the characterization. Unless there's some grand purpose as to why Thor and Iron Man have become exactly like their 616 counterparts, then there's no other reason for the changes other than Loeb is a lazy writer.

Iron Man, now? He's acting as the exact same character that Millar was writing. Drunk, slightly obnoxious, verbose, and cocky. Yep, same Ultimate character he was. Same way Ellis is writing him in Ultimate Human, too.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

It's Mistress Gluon vs BrianWilly all over again

 

[El Bastardo]

I don't have the stamina to keep it up.

The louts on the X-Men board wear me out.

 

[Hush]

So who won? To tired to read.

 

[El Bastardo]

Me. But I win everything, pretty much. Ask Spoons.

You cannot defeat rational logic and dismissive sarcasm.

 

[Hush]

Very nice congrats.

 

[Joker]

I figured I'd give Loeb a chance, even after his crazy, somehow even mroe over the top than Millar first issue disgusted me...but after issue 2, it's just more of the same...and Joe Mad sucks. Seriously, it's like being taken back to the 90's. His layouts and anatomy are just as poor as Rob Leifields...

 

[Blader5489]

You're a sore loser.

It was sarcastic and dismissive. Not facetious. Thank you.

Sarcastic and facetious are the same thing. Thank you.

No, because that would be a color change.

But it's a style choice, right? If changing Janet from Asian to white is acceptable, then so is a black Tony Stark. Again, going by your "rational logic."

Because even having bought and read Loeb's issues of Ultimate Power, I still don't know wutzefex went on.

Wouldn't that be considered proper criticism?

That would depend on the manner in which the off-screen development was handled.

We saw how it was handled: it was revealed in that jumbled up mess of Quicksilver dialogue, sandwiched between Janet talking to Hank and the Brotherhood attacking. So I supposed the manner in which it was handled could be described as rushed and poor.

What point strikes me as minor?

I meant part. Dammit.

You know what I mean, anyway. Loeb is taking away the elements that separate the Ultimates from their 616 counterparts, which defeats the whole purpose of the Ultimate line.

Iron Man, now?

Yes, Iron Man, who I mentioned two posts ago. My problem isn't in his characterization, it's in his armor--yet another element that separated Ultimate Tony from 616 Tony that Loeb has now stripped away.

 

[El Bastardo]

You're a sore loser.

Except I didn't lose, nubface.

I just can't keep going 'round in circles here too. I go 'round in circles enough on the X-Men boards. It's like a madhouse there.

And I love MAD!. You haters can just have fun on your precious little bandwagon party.

t:

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Mad Ftw

 

[Blader5489]

Except I didn't lose, nubface.

I just can't keep going 'round in circles here too. I go 'round in circles enough on the X-Men boards. It's like a madhouse there.

You quit = I win

 

[El Bastardo]

You quit = I win

I smells some lies, I does.

I didn't quit. I fired a broadside, Spoons complained, someone asked who won, and I announced the victor. Me.

It's perfectly legit. Just ask Spoons.

You were just sleeping on the job, man. Learn the lesson from this.

 

[CBG]

I prefer to have a new writer.

 

[Blader5489]

I smells some lies, I does.

I didn't quit. I fired a broadside, Spoons complained, someone asked who won, and I announced the victor. Me.

It's perfectly legit. Just ask Spoons.

You were just sleeping on the job, man. Learn the lesson from this.

No, you got backed into a corner, tiptoed around nearly every point I made, and tried to be cute about it with your "dismissive sarcasm." And when that was all said and done, you announced that you didn't have the stamina to continue at your apologist bull****. You gave up before I even made my retort.

If you can find enjoyment in this book, then good for you, but that doesn't change Ultimates 3 being crap--it just means you like a crappy comic book. Most of the characters, in one way or another, have been inexplicably or illogically altered into carbon copies of their 616 counterparts; the plot is devoid of any logical pacing or buildup, with random moments and meaningless cameos happening for no reason; and the dialogue is a notch or two below even Loeb's mediocre standards. This book, in no way, qualifies as a good comic book story, much less an Ultimates story. Ultimates 3 may only be two issues in, but if this were truly a good story you wouldn't have to be making excuses for it already--it should be able to stand on its own merits thus far. But it doesn't.

You. Lose.

 

[Artistsean]

I don't care for Mad's art, but thats just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But can someone give me some detailed examples of Loeb's story and writing?
Good or bad I am just curious.

 

[3dman27]

No, they should just cancel the Ultimates altogether. Cancel all of the Ultimate titles.

might be a good idea

 

[Joker]

I don't care for Mad's art, but thats just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But can someone give me some detailed examples of Loeb's story and writing?
Good or bad I am just curious.

Here's a comparison/example of his work compared to Millars. In both UXM and Ultimates, Millar had always implied that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch loved each other more than a brother and sister probably should. It was never actually said, but when you added up all the different little things from all there appearances, you sort of went "wait...what?"

Loeb, on the other hand, within the first 10 pages of his first issue, not only has Wasp tell Captain America that it's totally obvious that they're in love and f**king, but also that he needs to get with the time, cause while incest may have been considered "wrong" and "damaging to the species as a whole due to birth defects, weakened immune systems, etc. that come from it," that it's totally fine, and totally hot, in the year 2008 for a brother and sister to get it on.

There's a nice example. See what we mean by it seems like a bad parody of Millars work? While some of his stuff was over the top, like Hulks dialouge, it never felt like it was TOO much. This does.

 

[Joker]

might be a good idea

I dont understand this. If you dont like them, dont read them. It doesnt effect the rest of the Marvel universe AT ALL. I dont like X-Men all that much, but I'm not saying "this sucks, cancel all X-books!" like some sort of ******.

 

[El Bastardo]

Yeah, crying for something to be published and then removed from continuity is ridiculous. Above example, for instance. And Kirkman's work on Ultimate X-Men might very well positively suck, but it shouldn't be taken out of continuity. That's just an awful slap in the face to buyers and a bull decision.

 

[Darthphere]

I dont understand this. If you dont like them, dont read them. It doesnt effect the rest of the Marvel universe AT ALL. I dont like X-Men all that much, but I'm not saying "this sucks, cancel all X-books!" like some sort of ******.

I hope you get an infraction for that.

 

[El Bastardo]

Ah, this thread spreads more love and cheer to all the little boys and girls.