The Dark Knight Rises Should "Realism" be lightened up a bit?

[The Joker]

yes.

folks are telling the story they want to tell, and the only regulations they have to adhere to are "does it serve the story" and "will it make money"

And so far, Nolan has adhered to both of those. Although Begins was not nearly as financially successful as TDK. But it was successful enough to revive the franchise, and give us a superior sequel.

That's what I don't get about people pushing for a certain director to take over a franchise. For example, someone may want Guillermo del Toro to take over the Batman franchise after Nolan, but how do you know he's going to give you the Batman movie you want? Every director that has been hired to direct a Batman movie has gone in with the intention making a Batman movie that adheres to their own vision and that isn't bound by the current Batman comics of the time. That goes for Tim Burton, Joel Schumacher, Darren Aronofsky, and Christopher Nolan. So, you hire Guillermo del Toro and you get Guillermo del Toro's Batman, you hire David Fincher and you get David Fincher's Batman, and so on.

There's also different combinations that can occur for filmmakers across the superhero genre. Bad filmmakers can make comic book movies that are very faithful, and good filmmakers can make comic book movies that are not very faithful. Ideally, I suppose what the fans want is a great filmmaker making a totally comics-accurate film, but that has yet to happen, unless someone can point one out to me.

'Nuff said

 

[Mr. Earle]

What did you exactly think was wrong with Burton's Batman films???

I actually think Batman Begins is better than The Dark Knight but then I also think that Burton films are better than The Dark Knight.

They were too gothic and depressing for my tastes (especially Returns), and i always got that feeling that its a pocket universe, or set. It felt asphyxiating at times.

I had other problems with them, but this is the problem that is relevant to our current discussion.

 

[The Joker]

They were too gothic and depressing for my tastes (especially Returns), and i always got that feeling that its a pocket universe, or set. It felt asphyxiating at times.

The soccer moms thought that, too, especially regarding Returns. Thought it was too graphic and scary for children. It's why Schumacher made Forever so child friendly and bright.

 

[Mr. Earle]

The soccer moms thought that, too, especially regarding Returns. Thought it was too graphic and scary for children. It's why Schumacher made Forever so child friendly and bright.

Returns is the worst Batman movie IMHO. I can watch B&R as a Brave and the Bold movie and have fun with it, but BR is just Burton being left free to burton up Batman. Its a typical Burton movie with some Batman characters running around.

As for family friendliness, i'm currently reading Morrison's B&R book, which is currently in the top 3 of DC's best sellers. And for good reason: Its awesome. So you can have fun, colourful stories who are trully great and you can have BF and B&R which suck.

 

[returntovoid]

They were too gothic

That's understandable reasoning or you interpreted some things as being literally supernatural even though they were open to interpretation. Either way, you didn't like the Gothic style/aesthetic of the film.

depressing for my tastes (especially Returns)

Aside from the ending where Batman reveals his identity, toddler Penguin being thrown in the sewer and the scene before the credits, I didn't think there were that many depressing moments plus it had comic relief. Also, it was no crime-drama and atleast felt like the early 1939-1940 Golden Age Batman by Bill Finger/Bob Kane.

I don't mind if you didn't like Returns/Burton's vision. I actually found many things in TDK far more depressing that it annoyed the hell out of me whereas Returns kept it subtle/hidden beneath the surface.

 

[The Joker]

Returns is the worst Batman movie IMHO. I can watch B&R as a Brave and the Bold movie and have fun with it, but BR is just Burton being left free to burton up Batman. Its a typical Burton movie with some Batman characters running around.

I love Returns, but it is understandable as to why some people dislike it so much. It was a real Burtonesque movie in many ways, but because I love Burton as a director, it worked for me. I enjoyed his take on The Penguin and Catwoman immensely.

As for family friendliness, i'm currently reading Morrison's B&R book, which is currently in the top 3 of DC's best sellers. And for good reason: Its awesome.

It's my favorite Bat book at the moment. How awesome is Damien? Best character to grace the Batman comics in years.

 

[Mr. Earle]

It's my favorite Bat book at the moment. How awesome is Damien? Best character to grace the Batman comics in years.

Agreed 10000%. You gotta love a kid who uses the word "harlot" (referring to Selina in the Gotham City Sirens Christmas issue).

 

[Wams]

I can't wait till they reboot Bat's again...

I wish they would make Batman as old as his legend.

Set him back to 1939...

He is better set back in the past as is Superman.

-Im just saying.

 

[Anita18]

I can't wait till they reboot Bat's again...

I wish they would make Batman as old as his legend.

Set him back to 1939...

He is better set back in the past as is Superman.

-Im just saying.

Well played sir, well played.

 

[IBRAH08]

If a story featuring a Batman respectful of the mythology resonates with people who aren't comic fans on a wide scale I fail to see the problem.

it's because (like I said in my post) they are saying they prefer it. it's not the fact that they like it (I've got nothing against gritty batman, Year One was one of the first GNs I read and I still love it to this day), but that they think they prefer it, when they have nothing to actually compare it and can, therefore, not accurately say that prefer it. In order to prefer something you must have a reference point, the GA does not have said reference point.

 

[lixdexia]

it's because (like I said in my post) they are saying they prefer it. it's not the fact that they like it (I've got nothing against gritty batman, Year One was one of the first GNs I read and I still love it to this day), but that they think they prefer it, when they have nothing to actually compare it and can, therefore, not accurately say that prefer it. In order to prefer something you must have a reference point, the GA does not have said reference point.

??? the 5 previous theatrical releases, 4 batman centric cartoons as well as various other cartoons in which batman was a frequent guest star or central character, live action t.v. show, or 2 movie serials don't count as a point of reference? i don't think i've ever met ANYONE above the age of 4 that hasn't seen an episode of super-friends.
the GA may not have as many points of reference as many of the members of this board, but to say they have none is ludicrous.

 

[IBRAH08]

??? the 5 previous theatrical releases, 4 batman centric cartoons as well as various other cartoons in which batman was a frequent guest star or central character, live action t.v. show, or 2 movie serials don't count as a point of reference? i don't think i've ever met ANYONE above the age of 4 that hasn't seen an episode of super-friends.
the GA may not have as many points of reference as many of the members of this board, but to say they have none is ludicrous.

YOu have to see my first post for this to make sense. I was specifically to films and (as I am only about 20) Many of my friends are not aware of some of the Batman cartoons because they were 1-4 years old when they started. Also the previous films are not always great examples of fantasy Batman. They think that Schumacher's films are the only way to do it and that is just wrong and an injustice to man.

 

[lixdexia]

YOu have to see my first post for this to make sense. I was specifically to films and (as I am only about 20) Many of my friends are not aware of some of the Batman cartoons because they were 1-4 years old when they started. Also the previous films are not always great examples of fantasy Batman. They think that Schumacher's films are the only way to do it and that is just wrong and an injustice to man.

yes, it seems there was a bit of a mix up on my part and for that i apologize. however my point still stands, adam west and the superfreinds cartoon are ubiquitous. and the hate schumacher recieves is just as undue as the hate nolan gets imo. batman forever was and is still tons of fun and a fantastic representation of "fantasy batman" and the cluster**** (though i personally love the campiness of it) tht is batman and robin is a beast with far more than one father. i think the majority of people are far more familiar with batman than many here (often myself included) want to give them credit for. they may not know all the ins and outs and details and obscure characters we do but they seem to have the broad strokes of the different interpretations of the character and the basic story pretty well figured out.

 

[IBRAH08]

yes, it seems there was a bit of a mix up on my part and for that i apologize. however my point still stands, adam west and the superfreinds cartoon are ubiquitous. and the hate schumacher recieves is just as undue as the hate nolan gets imo. batman forever was and is still tons of fun and a fantastic representation of "fantasy batman" and the cluster**** (though i personally love the campiness of it) tht is batman and robin is a beast with far more than one father. i think the majority of people are far more familiar with batman than many here (often myself included) want to give them credit for. they may not know all the ins and outs and details and obscure characters we do but they seem to have the broad strokes of the different interpretations of the character and the basic story pretty well figured out.

NO hard feelings of course. I would argue that adam west isn't the best example of serious yet fantasy Batman nor is Batman and Robin . I think many people My age think that it is the only way a non gritty Batman could exist. I guess what I'm really driving at is that People should get more interpretations in future films because (though they may know more than we think) I don't think the GA knows much about alternate interpretations. Like I showed someone a good manip of a comic accurate costume and their response was "I don't like that because I like realistic Batman" when a more accurate suit could be very realistic. You see what I mean?? It's like this newest interpretation (which I don't really have too much against and definitely less than against most other Bat films-not that I hated all the other bat films either. But I digress) has clouded people's minds and jaded them against new ideas and that's a helluva shame.

 

[Chris Wallace]

You are right that the GA can accept the fantasy Batman. You are quite wrong in thinking BB's and TDK's "realism" is because of the GA. Thats Nolan's vision of Batman. To be honest, I've loved this type of "Batman crime-drama" we get in TDK. Its like Batman: Year One, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory and several BTAS episodes I watched as a kid. Nolan's vision is different, but when people refer to TDK as Heat 2: Batman, I don't think that is a bad thing. There are many many many Batman stories that have that style. There are also many many many Batman stories that don't. So when it comes down to it, it just depends on what Batman you prefer. I'd like to see a more comic-book styled Batman franchise in the past, but I want Nolan to finish his vision, and for the record, I love his vision.

Edit: Personally, my dream Batman film would take the best of both styles, because I love the gritty, detective Batman stories, but I also love the comic book, more superhero type stories.

I didn't say nor do I think that the GA is the reason for the overly pushed "realism" agenda; I believe they are the alibi, the cop-out, the excuse for it.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think that after B&R, they had to go with a more serious and realistic approach that would convince the audience to take Batman seriously and pay to see him again. They couldnt have gone with a more balanced approach because it wouldnt be different enough from B&R. With that in mind and Nolan's high brow that doesnt allow him to fully embrace the franchise for what it is and instead pretends that its a crime drama, we can see why the movies are the way they are.

Perhaps after Nolan it would be the right time for a more balanced take on the franchise.

 

[returntovoid]

Returns is the worst Batman movie IMHO. I can watch B&R as a Brave and the Bold movie and have fun with it

You actually enjoy B&R more than Returns???

I have not seen Brave and the Bold but it seems 100x better than B&R. Regardless of what you think, I think Returns is far from being the worst like B&R and to much, much lesser extent BF.

but BR is just Burton being left free to burton up Batman. Its a typical Burton movie with some Batman characters running around.

Besides, the facial aesthetic/sewer freak Penguin (but Penguin was always mentally freakish in the comics although not that dramatically freakish looking as in Returns) and the patchwork in Catwoman's costume (patchwork aside, the costume was quite close to one of the post-crisis costumes in the comics), I don't see what else was Burton-esque about the film.

Returns follows the comics more than you and some people think, just check this link.

http://www.batmanmovieonline.com/features.php?display=58

I can't wait till they reboot Bat's again...

I don't think they should reboot again, I mean atleast not in the traditional sense but just continue the series with a new director's vision and ignore the previous films because there is no point in re-telling his origins all over again, that was done to perfection in Batman Begins and it would be repetitive to do that again.

I wish they would make Batman as old as his legend.

Set him back to 1939...

I agree with this. I'd like to see a pulp/noir/horror Batman set in 1939/1940's, they should not literally say it's set in that era but just make the tone like that era and I basically mean keep it timeless.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think that after B&R, they had to go with a more serious and realistic approach that would convince the audience to take Batman seriously and pay to see him again. They couldnt have gone with a more balanced approach because it wouldnt be different enough from B&R. With that in mind and Nolan's high brow that doesnt allow him to fully embrace the franchise for what it is and instead pretends that its a crime drama, we can see why the movies are the way they are.

Perhaps after Nolan it would be the right time for a more balanced take on the franchise.

Well said, Mr. Earle. I believe that after Nolan there is room for more fantastical take. Nolan never fully shut that door, mostly because you can't shut that door to it. At the same time, he wasn't trying to keep fully real, even with the Chicago Gotham look in TDK. He still gives whoever gets the franchise after a lot to work with (given that no more important characters die in the third one).

What I do not like is the fact that he won't let Batman nor Superman crossover. Thats what I hate most almost as if keeping them in the same universe would ruin the GA's suspension of disbelief. It won't, but can someone tell Nolan that? I wish his brother would.

 

[Anita18]

What I do not like is the fact that he won't let Batman nor Superman crossover. Thats what I hate most almost as if keeping them in the same universe would ruin the GA's suspension of disbelief. It won't, but can someone tell Nolan that? I wish his brother would.

Well his brother helped write TDK, so they're probably all on the same page as to why their version of Batman can't have Superman in the picture.

But again, it's why THEIR version of Batman can't, IIRC they've never explicitly said it could never happen ever on film.

 

[lixdexia]

NO hard feelings of course. I would argue that adam west isn't the best example of serious yet fantasy Batman nor is Batman and Robin . I think many people My age think that it is the only way a non gritty Batman could exist. I guess what I'm really driving at is that People should get more interpretations in future films because (though they may know more than we think) I don't think the GA knows much about alternate interpretations. Like I showed someone a good manip of a comic accurate costume and their response was "I don't like that because I like realistic Batman" when a more accurate suit could be very realistic. You see what I mean?? It's like this newest interpretation (which I don't really have too much against and definitely less than against most other Bat films-not that I hated all the other bat films either. But I digress) has clouded people's minds and jaded them against new ideas and that's a helluva shame.

i see what you're trying to say and that's cool. i'm up for whatever after this story finishes, i'd just like to see this story finish first.

p.s. ...how is more or less the same suit the character has been wearing for 70 yrs something new

Perhaps after Nolan it would be the right time for a more balanced take on the franchise.

1- batman IS a crime drama! no mater how you cut it, it's a crime drama. there are people commiting crimes, people trying to stop said people from commiting said crimes, and drama between the two.

2- yes that's pretty much what happened, but that was more or less wb's approach to new batman films before nolan ever came on board.

3- just for reference, what non-comic batman media do you consider to be a "more balanced" batman story?

What I do not like is the fact that he won't let Batman nor Superman crossover. Thats what I hate most almost as if keeping them in the same universe would ruin the GA's suspension of disbelief. It won't, but can someone tell Nolan that? I wish his brother would.

as cool as it would be to see these characters cross over on film i support the current embargo. let the movies form their interpretations of the characters before we just force them all into one film. i tihnk batman will be more or less ready for a cross-over after this third movie but what about superman? are wb as a studio and we as fans willing to risk future development of these properties for a quick worlds finest fix? look at what happened in man of steel? they turned meeting batman into an almost formative experience for clark and it was terrible. let the movies find their feet, then mash'em together.

 

[General Vulcun]

A JLA film aside, is it necessary for Bats and Supes' solo franchise to exist in the same universe, besides it being the case in the comics? How would their existing in each other's universes serve the stories of their films? For example, when Superman stopped some crime in Gotham in Superman Returns, how did that help the story of that film, considering that it could've been any major city, or was it nothing more than a bone for the fans?

Also, and this is the most important thing, Nolan has stated that his Batman films and the new Superman movie will not blend, but does that mean the films will go out of their way to specifically state that these characters don't exist in each other's worlds? If not, then that means when Nolan is done, that whoever comes in to succeed him will not have that restriction. What Nolan is doing is that while the films themselves don't say anything against the existence of each other, Nolan is saying that the inclusion of the other isn't going to have a direct affect on the character or the story, so therefore bringing up the character or referencing him in anyway wouldn't exactly serve the film any good and would only suffice as a bone for the fans.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't mind if the characters are referenced in each others film, as long as it serves the story. The stories so far have not needed the appearence of their opposing character in order for the story to work, and judging by Nolan's comments, the story is not going to rely on the other hero for it to work. And personally, I like the way Nolan handled this. He can say they exist alone in interviews, but by not addressing in the films it's neither denied or confirmed.

 

[IBRAH08]

Well said, Mr. Earle. I believe that after Nolan there is room for more fantastical take. Nolan never fully shut that door, mostly because you can't shut that door to it. At the same time, he wasn't trying to keep fully real, even with the Chicago Gotham look in TDK. He still gives whoever gets the franchise after a lot to work with (given that no more important characters die in the third one).

What I do not like is the fact that he won't let Batman nor Superman crossover. Thats what I hate most almost as if keeping them in the same universe would ruin the GA's suspension of disbelief. It won't, but can someone tell Nolan that? I wish his brother would.

I think that's more Goyer's job

 

[weezerspider]

I didn't say nor do I think that the GA is the reason for the overly pushed "realism" agenda; I believe they are the alibi, the cop-out, the excuse for it.

ahh My bad. I agree, they are the cop-out reason.

 

[returntovoid]

Well his brother helped write TDK

I would have preferred that David Goyer would fully write TDK instead of Jonah Nolan taking over/re-writing his draft, just so the tone of TDK is like BB and doesn't turn out as a disappointment, IMO.

1- batman IS a crime drama! no mater how you cut it, it's a crime drama. there are people commiting crimes, people trying to stop said people from commiting said crimes, and drama between the two.

Crime-drama is not a term for a genre that has just something to do with crime but the Crime film genre that has a lot of dramatic weight, the Crime film genre can fall into many other genre and Crime-drama happens to be the Crime-film genre falling into the Drama-film genre.

A Crime film, in the most general sense, is a film that involves various aspects crime and the criminal justice system. Stylistically, it can fall under many different genres, most commonly drama film, thriller film, mystery film, action film and film noir. Films focused on the Mafia are a typical example of crime films.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_film

The Crime-film element in Batman by creators Bill Finger/Bob Kane was basically 1930's/1940's Film-noir/Pulp Fiction, other elements in Batman were Swashbuckling Action like 1920's The Mark of Zorro, 1930's/1940's Gothic Horror and obviously Superhero but with dark Pulp Hero roots.

Crime-drama is stuff like The Godfather, Heat, CSI, Law and Order etc.

3- just for reference, what non-comic batman media do you consider to be a "more balanced" batman story?

Well, Mr. Earle mentioned few pages back that he thinks BTAS is a "more balanced" take on Batman outside the comics and I agree with that.

 

[IBRAH08]

genre and Crime-drama happens to be the Crime-film genre falling into the Drama-film genre.






Well, Mr. Earle mentioned few pages back that he thinks BTAS is a "more balanced" take on Batman outside the comics and I agree with that.

oh, yeah..............

I agree with that