The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Should Sony move forward with Sinister 6 and Venom?

[amazingfantasy15]

^ The basic storytelling framework is the same regardless of the medium.

The point is that it's not that difficult or daunting to do a Venom or S6 film that tells the exact same story that would be told using those characters if they were to appear as the antagonists in a Spider-Man film, because the only thing that's changed is the perspective from which said stories are being told.

There's another problem inherent, when you flip the script like that, you're looking to make Spider-man the villain, you make 6 mega budget movies on good-guy Spider-man, then you're trying to get the audience to root against him. Take Ocean's 11 as an example, the stars are the villains, they're criminals trying to rip off a legimate businessman (he may be ruthless, but his business is legit), but we root for the bad guys in that movie. Then when they make Amazing Spider-man 4 we're supposed to root for Spidey again? They need an antagonist who isn't Spider-man, so you don't hurt the brand of your main money maker, but who's the antagonist? Maybe Osborne since he's somewhat responsible? They don't have Kingpin, he's with Daredevil, Black Cat isn't enough to fight all Six, what other heroes/villains come with Spider-man that can work as antagonists.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The thieves in Ocean's 11 are not the bad guys. The casino owner is the bad guy. Just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean they are the bad guys, otherwise George Washington and company would be considered the villains in every movie ever made about the American Revolution.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

^ There wasn't all that much general interest in the properties that Marvel has built its Cinematic Universe around either, and look how that's turned out.

There absolutely was tons of interest in the Avengers. The very first movie of the MCU was one its most successful, and people on here were hoping for Avengers adaptations even before Marvel had the rights to these characters back (at least since I signed up in early 2003).

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Agreed.

IM
Thor
Captain America

All b list heroes before the plan to shot solo movies and then bring them together for a massive movie.

If you build it, they will come.

I hope you aren't seriously comparing Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America to D-List villains like Vulture, Electro, and Rhino. The Big Three weren't A-List, but they were still known and popular. Do you really think The Avengers and the MCU in general would have done as well if instead of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America they made the lead Avengers the likes of Ant-Man, Black Knight, and Tigra?

 

[amazingfantasy15]

The thieves in Ocean's 11 are not the bad guys. The casino owner is the bad guy. Just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean they are the bad guys, otherwise George Washington and company would be considered the villains in every movie ever made about the American Revolution.

I know that, but in order for a Sinister Six movie to work, you have to turn Spider-man into the bad guy or find someone else in the character rights for them to fight against.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I know that, but in order for a Sinister Six movie to work, you have to turn Spider-man into the bad guy or find someone else in the character rights for them to fight against.

Ok. I just wanted to clarify that because there have been lots of comparisons between Ocean's 11 and the Sinister Six, when they really aren't comparable at all.

You're right. Them being good guys in Sinister Six and bad guys in TASM is a major problem for the audience to get around.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Not really, because that's not what would likely be happening. You can have the Six as protagonists without changing the fact that they're bad guys. You're simply telling the story of their battle with the heroic Spider-Man from their point-of-view.

 

[Spiderine]

For some strange reason that concept just sounds awful.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

For some strange reason that concept just sounds awful.

Yeah, that idea is just terrible.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You guys should stop being so closed-minded because doing what I said is a perfectly valid storytelling method.

 

[OriginalMiles]

My personal opinion is..

Sinister 6 should be a Spidey movie named Spider-Man: Rise of The Sinister 6.

Venom is okay with me.

 

[Harley2004]

Yes, it's movies like this is what comic book movies need. They just have to pull it back. TASM2, was too much and Sinister Six could easily turn into Batman and Robin.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Having a Sinster Six and Venom movie without Spider Man having a major role in either would be stupid to me.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Having a Sinster Six and Venom movie without Spider Man having a major role in either would be stupid to me.

Keyword there being 'major'. A cameo or minor supporting role wouldn't count.

 

[TalismanRing]

I hope you aren't seriously comparing Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America to D-List villains like Vulture, Electro, and Rhino. The Big Three weren't A-List, but they were still known and popular. Do you really think The Avengers and the MCU in general would have done as well if instead of Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America they made the lead Avengers the likes of Ant-Man, Black Knight, and Tigra?

Worse. It would be as if they followed up Iron Man with a movie starring Iron Monger, Man-Bull, Whiplash and Fin Fang Foom.

What exactly is a film starring only superhero villains supposed to do? Are we meant to hiss and cheer them on to failure for 2 hours? These aren't lovable rogues planning a non violent heist. They're sociopaths and psychopaths who injure and murder people.

They could make it in vein of The Watchman - but even darker and more unsavory with the equivalent of having The Comedian and Rorschack as leads. But I wouldn't expect blockbuster returns and I'd keep the budget under $75m. Because this is not tent pole material and most definitely not fun for the whole family in the Spider-man way.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Worse. It would be as if they followed up Iron Man with a movie starring Iron Monger, Man-Bull, Whiplash and Fin Fang Foom.

What exactly is a film starring only superhero villains supposed to do? Are we meant to hiss and cheer them on to failure for 2 hours? These aren't lovable rogues planning a non violent heist. They're sociopaths and psychopaths who injure and murder people.

They could make it in vein of The Watchman - but even darker and more unsavory with the equivalent of having The Comedian and Rorschack as leads. But I wouldn't expect blockbuster returns and I'd keep the budget under $75m. Because this is not tent pole material and most definitely not fun for the whole family in the Spider-man way.

I absolutely agree.

 

[jmc]

^ Not really, because that's not what would likely be happening. You can have the Six as protagonists without changing the fact that they're bad guys. You're simply telling the story of their battle with the heroic Spider-Man from their point-of-view.

It's not as simple as that, there's a need for there to be a balance between good and evil in these type of movies. You can't just have the perspectives change, audiences need someone to cheer for and if it's going to be a Sinister 6 they're are going to have to go after 'badder' guys. Question is, what is the end goal for the movie?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Keyword there being 'major'. A cameo or minor supporting role wouldn't count.

Yea spidey cameo in either movie wouldn't work for me. He would need to have a role in both.

 

[jmc]

In which case just make them Spider-Man movies.

 

[Spiderine]

If Spiderman has a "major" role in these films then they can drop the spinoff tag because now its just a Spiderman film. Nobody is gonna go watch these "villains" battle Spidey and then Spidey disappears for a half hour so they can focus on them. Are you kidding me with this nonsense? It does not work like that.

 

[jonathancrane]

A small presence would work.

The purpose of the film is to build up the Six, so that AsM3 will not take much time explaining/building them up. Hence, Spider-Man having a limited presence is fine.

 

[jmc]

There's also the problem with selling a film like this. If Spider-Man is not going to be in the film then what exactly is Sony trying to sell us? And if he is in the film how do they not make it look like he's the star?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There's also the problem with selling a film like this. If Spider-Man is not going to be in the film then what exactly is Sony trying to sell us? And if he is in the film how do they not make it look like he's the star?

And if he's marketed as the star, but isn't actually the star, expect the audience to rebel.

Just look at all the complaints about Marvel 'lying' to people about the Mandarin and multiply them a hundred fold.

Also, look at the main complaint about Batman Returns (where the poor response resulted in a mutual divorce between WB and Tim Burton): Too much focus on the villains, not enough on the character people wanted to see (Batman).

 

[OB12]

A Sinister Six film is more akin what the Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th movies became. Essentially the main draw is the antagonist, however just changing the perspective to be that of the antagonist doesn't make it a good idea or even the way to do it. Those horror films and others like them always have a protagonist, someone that the audience can pull for to triumph in the end. I would imagine this would be much the same way, only the protagonist wouldn't be Spidey, but someone like a regular cop or something. All in all it sounds like a terrible idea to me.

 

[jmc]

And if he's marketed as the star, but isn't actually the star, expect the audience to rebel.

Just look at all the complaints about Marvel 'lying' to people about the Mandarin and multiply them a hundred fold.

Also, look at the main complaint about Batman Returns (where the poor response resulted in a mutual divorce between WB and Tim Burton): Too much focus on the villains, not enough on the character people wanted to see (Batman).

I don't know how you don't market him as the star if he's in it, otherwise what's the selling point? This comes back to the entire idea being a misguided attempt on the studio to force an expanded universe for a series that doesn't need it. Do we want Spider-Man taking on the Sinister 6? Absolutely! Make that movie. But who's really going to give a rats arse about a film that really can't be anything more than a 2 hour prologue?