The Dark Knight Rises Should the Nolanverse Continue After Batman III?

[J. Custer]

If this film is set in the complete plausible, then eplain The Joker. He may look like a real person, he may have the same desires and perform similar actions that a serial killer could possibly perform in our world, but that doesn't exclude The Joker's supernatural abilities.

The character plans with such intricacy and precision, knowing certain actions and decisions are going to be made before they happen, knowing exactly what Gordon, Batman, and Dent are planning to do. The Joker is practically an omniscient character. He reminds me of/inspired Hannibal Lector, another character that has supreme intelligence, a master of manipulation, abilities beyond what any normal human being are capable of possessing.

Yet, like Lector, The Joker exists in a world that looks like ours and at times can feels like ours. But the fact that these characters, with their superhuman mental capabilities, exist in their respected worlds, it immediately calls the plausibility (in relation to our world) of this world into question. What kind of worlds allow for characters with this type of knowledge?

It may not be as glaring as a monster made out of clay, but it has to be recognized. Something like this clearly sets the Nolanverse apart from our world, no matter how much they may resemble each other, and definitely offers up fewer limitations than what some people originally thought of the Nolanverse.

very interesting. great post...

 

[crazy monkey]

@KalMart:
Read the rest of the post. Pop a Ritalin if you need to. I'll wait.

 

[KalMart]

@KalMart:
Read the rest of the post. Pop a Ritalin if you need to. I'll wait.

I already did and responded. I hit post by mistake before I was done...sorry. No need for the ritalin, thanks.

But if you need some valium...gimme a holler. I'll check back.

 

[crazy monkey]

Holla!!!

 

[KalMart]

Bam!

:P

 

[crazy monkey]

Aaaaah . . .
Dude, you are the ****.

 

[KalMart]

Aaaaah . . .
Dude, you are the ****.

Just...use it sparingly.

 

[crazy monkey]

Hmmm . . . ? Wha? Ah, who givs a ****. Batman. So stupd. cape stupid bat thjng.

 

[Brother Jack]

If this film is set in the complete plausible, then eplain The Joker. He may look like a real person, he may have the same desires and perform similar actions that a serial killer could possibly perform in our world, but that doesn't exclude The Joker's supernatural abilities.

The character plans with such intricacy and precision, knowing certain actions and decisions are going to be made before they happen, knowing exactly what Gordon, Batman, and Dent are planning to do. The Joker is practically an omniscient character. He reminds me of/inspired Hannibal Lector, another character that has supreme intelligence, a master of manipulation, abilities beyond what any normal human being are capable of possessing.

Yet, like Lector, The Joker exists in a world that looks like ours and at times can feels like ours. But the fact that these characters, with their superhuman mental capabilities, exist in their respected worlds, it immediately calls the plausibility (in relation to our world) of this world into question. What kind of worlds allow for characters with this type of knowledge?

It may not be as glaring as a monster made out of clay, but it has to be recognized. Something like this clearly sets the Nolanverse apart from our world, no matter how much they may resemble each other, and definitely offers up fewer limitations than what some people originally thought of the Nolanverse.

Thank you!

And that's just referring to one character. It's not even getting into the impossibilities of characters like Batman, Two-Face, or the any characters from Begins.

 

[jmc]

If this film is set in the complete plausible, then eplain The Joker. He may look like a real person, he may have the same desires and perform similar actions that a serial killer could possibly perform in our world, but that doesn't exclude The Joker's supernatural abilities.

The character plans with such intricacy and precision, knowing certain actions and decisions are going to be made before they happen, knowing exactly what Gordon, Batman, and Dent are planning to do. The Joker is practically an omniscient character. He reminds me of/inspired Hannibal Lector, another character that has supreme intelligence, a master of manipulation, abilities beyond what any normal human being are capable of possessing.

Yet, like Lector, The Joker exists in a world that looks like ours and at times can feels like ours. But the fact that these characters, with their superhuman mental capabilities, exist in their respected worlds, it immediately calls the plausibility (in relation to our world) of this world into question. What kind of worlds allow for characters with this type of knowledge?

It may not be as glaring as a monster made out of clay, but it has to be recognized. Something like this clearly sets the Nolanverse apart from our world, no matter how much they may resemble each other, and definitely offers up fewer limitations than what some people originally thought of the Nolanverse.

There's still significant difference between a terrorist who outsmarts everyone and a monster that can't possibly exist. As I said if you wanna continue to tow the plausibility line with this series, even if its only a quasi plausible series as I've already said, you can't start adding characters like Clayface and continue to claim it as such, it become pure fantasy after that no matter what. Besides, no ones ever claimed this world is the complete plausible, but it has tried to walk a very fine line, a similar type of line any traditional Hollywood action film walks.

 

[IBRAH08]

There's still significant difference between a terrorist who outsmarts everyone and a monster that can't possibly exist. As I said if you wanna continue to tow the plausibility line with this series, even if its only a quasi plausible series as I've already said, you can't start adding characters like Clayface and continue to claim it as such, it become pure fantasy after that no matter what. Besides, no ones ever claimed this world is the complete plausible, but it has tried to walk a very fine line, a similar type of line any traditional Hollywood action film walks.

I don't think anyone wants to call a movie with clayface plausible. I'm just saying that it is possible to move towards a more fantasy world (which would be recognized as such) from our current position with out a total reboot.

 

[jmc]

You're rebooting regardless if you head in that direction, don't you see? It becomes a totally different series. As soon as you start adding more sci-fi and heighten fantasy elements, especially elements like monsters, you've removed any relation to the the previous series of films regardless. You're rebooting by default.

 

[General Vulcun]

There's still significant difference between a terrorist who outsmarts everyone and a monster that can't possibly exist. As I said if you wanna continue to tow the plausibility line with this series, even if its only a quasi plausible series as I've already said, you can't start adding characters like Clayface and continue to claim it as such, it become pure fantasy after that no matter what. Besides, no ones ever claimed this world is the complete plausible, but it has tried to walk a very fine line, a similar type of line any traditional Hollywood action film walks.

There's a difference between a terrorist who outsmarts everyone and someone like The Joker who has this supreme, superhuman knowledge of (practically) everything. It's not just a matter of being a few steps ahead of the good guys, the character is written in such a away that suggests this very inhuman figure; a puppet master pulling the strings. Even Jonathan Nolan says that in the first shot of The Joker as it zooms in on him from behind, he felt that as soon as the film cuts to that shot it was like The Joker just blinked into existence, not having existed in that world before that. Jonah's statement indicates that he really doesn't see The Joker as a human being at all, and I think the film clearly reflects that in the way The Joker is able to plan, act, and react to actions of others around him.

The Joker, as I said, physically comes across as an actual human being occupying a space in this world, but the way that he's written and portrayed on the screen suggests that he's actually more than that. It can't simply be just about what the characters look like, if they look plausible enough to exist in this world, etc., it's also about a distinct feel that the films create by including certain aspects, and I believe that the way The Joker is written and portrayed gives the character a very uncanny feel, which then puts the plausibility of the Nolanverse into question as to exactly how plausible it is in the first place.

If a character like this can exist in the Nolanverse, then what are the other possibilities?

 

[jmc]

Then we're clearly looking at the character differently. I don't find the Joker to be superhuman at all, an intelligent psychopath who knows how the human mind works in extreme situations yes, some sort of mystical being, complete bollocks. You're still ignoring the point that is still a massive extreme to go from a character like the Joker, even is there's some level of 'superhumanness' in the character, which I don't find, to a CGI monster. You can't make that leap and still claim you're watching the same continuity.

 

[regwec]

On that level, no claim is necessary. Just don't give us another origin movie, or set out all the new rules.

 

[IBRAH08]

You're rebooting regardless if you head in that direction, don't you see? It becomes a totally different series. As soon as you start adding more sci-fi and heighten fantasy elements, especially elements like monsters, you've removed any relation to the the previous series of films regardless. You're rebooting by default.

I just don't think anyone needs a new origin story. And I don't that it's reboot just taking the character somewhere else. I mean if you read just Streets of Gotham or Detective Comics, you would have this very grounded view of Batman where you would argue no monsters exist cause you see none.. Yet, completely simultaneously the B&R title exists as does the Batman title. These have so much fantasy (time travel even). They exist in the same continuity, the same world. Now I'm not saying comics and movies are the same thing, cause that would be silly. But I'm just saying a reboot with a new origin story and all that jazz just isn't necessary. Hell, a fantasy reboot's first film could look exactly like TDK and still make sense (it probably wouldn't, but could). So I think some liberties can be taken

 

[IBRAH08]

On that level, no claim is necessary. Just don't give us another origin movie, or set out all the new rules.

this

 

[Doc Samson]

I don't see what the point would be in continuing? There's no reason why we can't have another fantastical Batman trio of films that are still taken in a serious tone.

I, for one, can't wait to see Mr. Freeze or Clayface or Killer Croc done properly, I would like to see Robin handled differently, and Nightwing eventually, all of these things I would want to see in as close to comic book form as possible. I also hold on to the hope that one day Superman and Batman can go toe to toe onscreen, and none of these things are really plausible in Nolan's world, at least how I would like to see them.

I feel as though Nolan should be left to his world, and who knows, one day he may revisit it. He's responsible for re-imagining these characters in a creative way nobody attacked before, and I wouldn't want to see some bastardized version of that. But Batman is a huge character with so many possiblities, let's not pigeonhole him to this one context...

 

[Ibn]

After his recent comments about how Batman and Superman have "nothing to do with each other", I wish he'd never been a part of the Batman world. I've wanted to like his Batman so bad....... but since day one, he's made it ABSOLUTELY clear that he does not give a flying **** about what anyone else might want. It's always been about him. He said the **** about Batman and Superman like it was a straight fact. I personally can't wait for his turn to be up. I want something fresh and exciting. THAT's what Batman is. He's NOT realistic at all, and I think it's far overdue for him to be treated as such. It's great to have a unique vision. But not to the point where you have to sacrifice characters defining attributes. I want Guillermo del Toro, or somebody with an ounce of creativity to be in charge of this franchise. And if the WB has ANY balls, they won't press the next director to do the same as Nolan.

 

[Ibn]

After his recent comments about how Batman and Superman have "nothing to do with each other", I wish he'd never been a part of the Batman world. I've wanted to like his Batman so bad....... but since day one, he's made it ABSOLUTELY clear that he does not give a flying **** about what anyone else might want. It's always been about him. He said the **** about Batman and Superman like it was a straight fact. I personally can't wait for his turn to be up. I want something fresh and exciting. THAT's what Batman is. He's NOT realistic at all, and I think it's far overdue for him to be treated as such. It's great to have a unique vision. But not to the point where you have to sacrifice characters defining attributes. I want Guillermo del Toro, or somebody with an ounce of creativity to be in charge of this franchise. And if the WB has ANY balls, they won't press the next director to do the same as Nolan.

 

[jmc]

Oh please, Nolan has done more than enough justice to the character.

I just don't think anyone needs a new origin story. And I don't that it's reboot just taking the character somewhere else. I mean if you read just Streets of Gotham or Detective Comics, you would have this very grounded view of Batman where you would argue no monsters exist cause you see none.. Yet, completely simultaneously the B&R title exists as does the Batman title. These have so much fantasy (time travel even). They exist in the same continuity, the same world. Now I'm not saying comics and movies are the same thing, cause that would be silly. But I'm just saying a reboot with a new origin story and all that jazz just isn't necessary. Hell, a fantasy reboot's first film could look exactly like TDK and still make sense (it probably wouldn't, but could). So I think some liberties can be taken

Who the hell said anything about a new origin story? A reboot doesn't have to entail having an origin story. Not once have I said there shouldn't be a more fantasy based Batman series, what I've said all along is that this Nolan series has set out from the start to be a grounded series, as soon as you add elements that are contradictory to what has been established you can no longer claim it to part of the same continuity, no one will buy it. If WB want to do a more fantasy based Batman film, go right ahead, got no problem with it. But don't do one and then look me in the eye and say it's 'part of the Nolan-verse' because that's pure BS, it will never be viewed as part of the Nolan-verse no matter what crap any studio exec tries to spin. In which case, start from scratch with a different continuity. Simple.

 

[IBRAH08]

Oh please, Nolan has done more than enough justice to the character.

Who the hell said anything about a new origin story? A reboot doesn't have to entail having an origin story. Not once have I said there shouldn't be a more fantasy based Batman series, what I've said all along is that this Nolan series has set out from the start to be a grounded series, as soon as you add elements that are contradictory to what has been established you can no longer claim it to part of the same continuity, no one will buy it. If WB want to do a more fantasy based Batman film, go right ahead, got no problem with it. But don't do one and then look me in the eye and say it's 'part of the Nolan-verse' because that's pure BS, it will never be viewed as part of the Nolan-verse no matter what crap any studio exec tries to spin. In which case, start from scratch with a different continuity. Simple.

Most reboots have a new origin and I actually I am anti-nolanverse continuing, so calm down. I think we actually agree you just came in at an odd part of the conversation where I was talking about a total reboot (with an origin). so, hmmmmmm I dunno. But fantasy Batman get's an A+ from me.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

no don't continue the nolanverse. maybe carry on the same continuity, but have it in a different style. i wanna see a more stylized neo noir type batman movie series.

 

[Two-Face]

Yes continue with Nolanverse but new director should add his take to it not just trying to top Nolan. Do it like Bond series.

 

[regwec]

After his recent comments about how Batman and Superman have "nothing to do with each other", I wish he'd never been a part of the Batman world. I've wanted to like his Batman so bad....... but since day one, he's made it ABSOLUTELY clear that he does not give a flying **** about what anyone else might want. It's always been about him. He said the **** about Batman and Superman like it was a straight fact. I personally can't wait for his turn to be up. I want something fresh and exciting. THAT's what Batman is. He's NOT realistic at all, and I think it's far overdue for him to be treated as such. It's great to have a unique vision. But not to the point where you have to sacrifice characters defining attributes. I want Guillermo del Toro, or somebody with an ounce of creativity to be in charge of this franchise. And if the WB has ANY balls, they won't press the next director to do the same as Nolan.

Strong words. I like Nolan's Batmovies, and I am grateful to him for them. At the same time, I have enjoyed them as a kind of bridge between our world and the world of Batman comics, with the narrative being an interpretation of how the latter might emerge from the former. I think that both BB and TDK both did this very well (albeit with a bit too much caution, as evidenced by The Joker's silly facepaint), but I'm not sure my enthusiasm wouldn't have been dampened at the outset if I had thought that Nolan did not really want to leave square one.

That is why I am in favour of future directors taking the same Batman by the scruff of the neck, and dragging him into a comicbook world.