The Avengers Should this movie be based more on the Avengers or the Ultimates?

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Ultimate Tony is a joke. He's never serious, emotional, caring; he's simply a drunk with a super suit. The MCU Tony is nowhere near as extreme.

They HAVE to use Ultimate Hawkeye (the badass SHIELD agent) IMHO. The traditional Hawkeye just wouldn't work on screen.

No, they don't. Ultimate Hawkeye is worse than Ultimate Iron Man and I hate Ultimate Hawkeye more than Ultimate Cap. He's just a careless homicidal maniac who loves shoot anyone for looking at him wrong. Not to mentions he's also an ***hole.

 

[Aztec]

No, they don't. Ultimate Hawkeye is worse than Ultimate Iron Man and I hate Ultimate Hawkeye more than Ultimate Cap. He's just a careless homicidal maniac who loves shoot anyone for looking at him wrong. Not to mentions he's also an ***hole.

You are referring to Loeb's god awful run on the title. In Millar's run he was a sleek, hot shot, bad ass type.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

You are referring to Loeb's god awful run on the title. In Millar's run he was a sleek, hot shot, bad ass type.

Yeah I was. I'm just not that fond of Ultimates characters overall though, except for Ultimate Thor and Nick Fury. I actually liked those two characters. I actually wouldn't had minded seeing the Ultimate Thor look though I would've hated the whole "questioning if he was a God" aspect of Ultimate Thor.

 

[The Question]

He was not serious a whole lot in those movie. He's Ultimate Tony all the way. 616 is much more serious.

So far it's been Ultimate Iron Man and Ultimate Nick Fury. Black Widow is not any version I know. In Incredible Hulk they had a similar super soldier origin that was in the Ultimates. But i'm not sure where they're going with this. Maybe Hulk was more the one from the 70s tv show. Not sure what they're going to do with Hawkeye. I figure he's going to be 616 Hawkeye with Ultimate Hawkeye's outfit...?

No, he's really not. You saw him playboying it up a lot more, which you usually don't see much when Tony is an established veteran but does fit in the context of him just starting out. Ultimate Tony was all booze and party and lame sex jokes. He was a caricature of Tony Stark. In the movies, Tony hit all the relevant emotional notes to his character. And you'll notice that, with the exception of the fight scene at the party in 2, when the helmet went on, Tony was all business. You never got that in Ultimates.

 

[The Question]

They HAVE to use Ultimate Hawkeye (the badass SHIELD agent) IMHO. The traditional Hawkeye just wouldn't work on screen.

Why? He's a much more interesting and in depth character in 616. And he still has a background in espionage in 616, so the SHIELD connection is still there.

 

[Stripesy Strip]

No, he's really not. You saw him playboying it up a lot more, which you usually don't see much when Tony is an established veteran but does fit in the context of him just starting out. Ultimate Tony was all booze and party and lame sex jokes. He was a caricature of Tony Stark. In the movies, Tony hit all the relevant emotional notes to his character. And you'll notice that, with the exception of the fight scene at the party in 2, when the helmet went on, Tony was all business. You never got that in Ultimates.

Eh I've read comics for a long time and i've not seen the regular Tony Stark on screen sorry. 616 Stark to me is Howard Hughes via Clark Gable. And Ultimate Stark is the jokey wink wink type that does great business but with a smile. A Richard Branson type. 616 is more serious businessman while Ultimate Tony is the mad genius type. You see him in the movie, coming up with inventions left and right, always coming up with new ideas. And i've never seen him serious.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Eh I've read comics for a long time and i've not seen the regular Tony Stark on screen sorry. 616 Stark to me is Howard Hughes via Clark Gable. And Ultimate Stark is the jokey wink wink type that does great business but with a smile. A Richard Branson type. 616 is more serious businessman while Ultimate Tony is the mad genius type. You see him in the movie, coming up with inventions left and right, always coming up with new ideas. And i've never seen him serious.

Well there are some elements of 616 that doesn't make him as lame as Ultimate Tony, but I still think his personality is little more based of Ultimate Tony stark. He has been serious in the movies.

 

[The Overlord]

Why? He's a much more interesting and in depth character in 616. And he still has a background in espionage in 616, so the SHIELD connection is still there.

Because in the 616 universe Hawkeye was introduced as a circus performer who turned into a criminal and then reformed and then became a hero, is a lot of back story for a secondary character, vs. in the Ultimate universe where he just starts off as a Shield agent.

With limited time and tons of characters to focus on, I think a simplified back story would be best.

 

[TX85]

Like other Marvel movies, The Avengers should mix the characterizations of the 616 comics with the modern sensibilities of the Ultimate comics.

I'll agree with that!,I personally prefer the 616 series But I do think Ultimate universe had it's moments,And so I think a mix of BOTH worlds should be great for this movie version!.

 

[Mogwai]

i agree, they need to have the right mix of both series. keep the origins of the characters their 616 versions and have the ultimate storylines and character interactions.

 

[TX85]

^Indeed!

 

[The Question]

Because in the 616 universe Hawkeye was introduced as a circus performer who turned into a criminal and then reformed and then became a hero, is a lot of back story for a secondary character, vs. in the Ultimate universe where he just starts off as a Shield agent.

With limited time and tons of characters to focus on, I think a simplified back story would be best.

There's no need to go into any of that in enormous detail. You can mention his past in the circus and his criminal record with a few lines of dialogue. The only thing that requires any real focus is how he got caught up with SHIELD and The Black Widow, and that also can be explained in a not too long conversation.

 

[chris moore]

Its kinda of difficult to say that it should be based on the 616 Avengers source material, because all the characters have gone through such significant changes since their introduction, that if this first movie (which for all intents and purposes is an "origin" film) were based on the source material from the first few years of published material, we wouldn't really like it. As comics, they were great. But only when read from the point of view of "in the mind of way back then".

Conversely however, I wouldn't want to see the Ultimates up on the big screen because the characterisations are (for the most part) those of ********s, arrogant pillocks, and murderous gun-toting maniacs. As "in the real world" as that might be, and as more likely as it is that a government sponsored superhero team would be more special forces than special powers, the Ultimates speaks nothing to me of superheroes, right Vs wrong, inspirational, and saving the world.

Now if we take the concepts of the 616 characters of the 60's, but use their modern day 616 personalities, then we'd have a helluva film. I want adventuring, vocal, leadership quality, cool-as Hawkeye; not gun wielding, ex-military, arrogant nutjob, bionic eyed Hawkeye. I want man out of time, holding up the ideals of a simpler time, morals to the max, there's a better way Cap; not arrogant, ********, punch the crap out of anyone who looks at him wrong, the best plan is the grab a rifle plan Cap. I want likes a drink but could be on the verge of alcoholism, atoning for his mistakes, as-we've-already-seen-in-the-movie Iron Man; not drunk while piloting, brain tumour, all over brain tissue, tank flying idot Tony. And I want unsure, trying to live up to legends, brilliant yet reserved Giant Man; not wife beating, anti depressant popping, arrogant, gets the crap kicked out of him every time Giant Man (if we even get him).

That we've had 616 Iron Man, Hulk, and Black Widow so far is a good sign for me

 

[Nimibro]

well, in volume one of ultiamtes, there was a rather serious and emotional moment between tony and fury, where tony says to fury that he wants to help the world as iron-man and not make it "bleed untill it's dry", like fury. the point is, ultimate tony can also be emotional and serious, and movie tony is much like ultimate tony.

black widow was more like black widow from the second volume of the ultimates (with the skrulls), she was very mysterious and badass. but she also had traits from 616, she looked a bit more like 616 romanoff, but she was more like ultimate black widow in terms of snakey personality and combat methods. but, hulk was a mix, a very regretful and restrained banner, while being more meek and looked a bit more like ultimate, hulk was much more like the 616 one. what i say is this: as of now, we can;t tell, let's just let marvel do their job, and see what comes out.

 

[The Overlord]

There's no need to go into any of that in enormous detail. You can mention his past in the circus and his criminal record with a few lines of dialogue. The only thing that requires any real focus is how he got caught up with SHIELD and The Black Widow, and that also can be explained in a not too long conversation.

1. Why would a government elite ops unit hire a circus performer over an agent that's being with them for several years and they would know they could trust?

2. Why would a government team like this hire someone with a criminal record, unless he was supposed to be cannon fodder like the Suicide Squad?

It seems to me there are certain elements of 616 Hawkeye that wouldn't work with what has been established so far in the movies and frankly I don't see the point of being dogmatically faithful to the 616 Avengers. Is there any reasons why these element are necessary?

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

 

[chris moore]

The reason they might do so is simple: The Avengers (movie) is not a government elite ops unit. It is a government sponsored unit comprised of superheroes created to combine the specialised talents of its members. And to showcase costumed/armoured/powered figures to the public in order to garner public support for the use of such people, and regulate the actions of an ever growing number of such beings/people. rather than prevent or allow them to run around unchecked.

 

[Original Spawn]

I hope they take elements from both universes, i used to hate the idea of adapting the ultimates comic and i wanted it to feature loki as the main villain but now i hope they use the alien threat from the ultimates and some minor parts on the original comic.

 

[Original Spawn]

I also hope that they don´t use the black widow from the ultimates.

 

[The Overlord]

The reason they might do so is simple: The Avengers (movie) is not a government elite ops unit. It is a government sponsored unit comprised of superheroes created to combine the specialised talents of its members. And to showcase costumed/armoured/powered figures to the public in order to garner public support for the use of such people, and regulate the actions of an ever growing number of such beings/people. rather than prevent or allow them to run around unchecked.

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

 

[ironman29758]

Tony is basiaclly 616 Tony and Movie Tony who can be a womanizer alcoholic with a life threatening disease and trying to make the world a better place than how he left it and try to make sure that protect anyone who can't protect themselves and make sure people aren't afraid as seen in Ultimates Vol #1 issue 2 and 6, Ultimate Spider-man Requiem#1, Ultimate Marvel Team Up#4 and 5.

Ultimate Cap is a great guy and has his man out of time where he's uncomfortable with most of his family and friend either old or dead, movies and everyone cursing way more than he's used to, He doesn't kill unless he needs to, He was depressed when he found out supervillians like Green Goblin was created in an result of trying to recreate the SSS, Ultimate Steve had some respect for enemies like The Colonel, and he wished that things should have been better for the 21st century. Ultimate Hulk Annual, Ultimate Six, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Captain_America

Edward Norton's Hulk is more or less of the Bill Bixby Hulk as well as the 616 Hulk where he unknowingly was helping out with the SSS for the Millitary like Ultimate Bruce was working on the SSS in order to recreate Captain America for S.H.I.E.L.D..

sure they can be darker versions of 616 counterparts and jack asses but underneath it all they basiaclly the same people so I would like them to use Ultimate ideas as well as 616 for the movie

 

[NEXUS 6]

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

Sacrilege!




I just happen to really like that costume.

 

[chris moore]

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

How much of a criminal was Hawkeye though? First outing of his trying to be a hero there was a misunderstanding, and the result was the misconception he was a thief. Second time out he was tricked by the BW to steal Starktech, which was a theft kept 'in house'

The 616 version has no actual criminal record, and no worse a public perception than Spider-Man. Hawkeye actually turned away from his mentors when he found out they were criminals.

 

[MadVillainy]

ITs weird how people say Ultimate Tony doesn't take anything seriously when I actually was thinking to myself (after reading the Ultimates for the first time yesterday) that he was more serious then IM2 Tony. The scene when he was reasoning with Thor in Vol.2 and then after the Pym domestic abuse thing. There are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head

Anyway: They should take more from 616 then Ultimate
About Hawkeye, definitely base him more off 616. Not that his personality was terrible in The Ultimates it was just boring to me. And Hawkeye shouldn't use guns, I mean what's the point of using a bow in combat when you have a gun?

And they should base his costume off this one and not the Ultimates Matrix look he had when he was introduced

And I didn't like how SHIELD was so public in The Ultimates. I mean that huge read carpet event scene was really stupid to me, but I do like the idea of Betty Ross being the Public Relations head

 

[ironman29758]

ITs weird how people say Ultimate Tony doesn't take anything seriously when I actually was thinking to myself (after reading the Ultimates for the first time yesterday) that he was more serious then IM2 Tony. The scene when he was reasoning with Thor in Vol.2 and then after the Pym domestic abuse thing. There are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head

Anyway: They should take more from 616 then Ultimate
About Hawkeye, definitely base him more off 616. Not that his personality was terrible in The Ultimates it was just boring to me. And Hawkeye shouldn't use guns, I mean what's the point of using a bow in combat when you have a gun?

And they should base his costume off this one and not the Ultimates Matrix look he had when he was introduced


And I didn't like how SHIELD was so public in The Ultimates. I mean that huge read carpet event scene was really stupid to me, but I do like the idea of Betty Ross being the Public Relations head

Ultimate Tony serious moments: Ultimate Spider-man Requiem, Ulitmate mARVEL TEAM UP, Ultimate Armor Team Up, Ultimates 3 showed him regrets what happen with Natasha and Jarvis from Ultimates 2
I actually view them as using Ultimate, 616 and other things evenly
Hawkeye I think they should use some Ultimate Hawkeye moments but mostly 616 Hawkeye

I actually like Betty as a scientist working on the same project Bruce worked on but Public Relation Head. I wasn't a big fan of the Ultimate S.H.I.E.L.D. being so public but the book Marvels had S.H.I.E.L.D. just as a public as Ultimate version.

 

[The Question]

1. Why would a government elite ops unit hire a circus performer over an agent that's being with them for several years and they would know they could trust?

2. Why would a government team like this hire someone with a criminal record, unless he was supposed to be cannon fodder like the Suicide Squad?

It seems to me there are certain elements of 616 Hawkeye that wouldn't work with what has been established so far in the movies and frankly I don't see the point of being dogmatically faithful to the 616 Avengers. Is there any reasons why these element are necessary?

Plus I never liked 616 Hawkeye's costume.

1: Because he's proven to be incredibly skilled at what he does and is willing to work for them. Besides, they can still put him through training after they hire him and put him in the field in a limited capacity as a trial period until they're sure he's up to snuff.

2: The government hires criminals all the time. We grabbed as many Nazi scientists after WWII as we possibly could. The FBI hires former criminals to serve as consultants and profilers, so long as they're skilled enough in their area of crime. The fact is, if someone has the necessary skills, and will at the very least not betray them if they're paying him, the the government's not going to waste the resources.

And why the public support a member who would have just been a criminal a short while ago?

Because the general public aren't actually sheep and are able to recognize when someone isn't a criminal anymore. Especially when they were just a thief and also did heroic acts and never killed anybody.