The Avengers The under performance of WATCHMEN is proof why Marvel should not do THE ULTIMATES

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea. Ultimate Cap would never get on film. Well not in these films anyway. Stylistically it will be more like Ultimate but the characters personalities will be more 616 obviously. They are just more traditionally heroic.

 

[TheVileOne]

Stylistically . . . sucks to Ultimates.

They didn't go with an Ultimate look for Iron Man, but they did go with it for Nick Fury.

Besides Fury though, it was pretty much as close to 616 as possible.

Ultimate Marvel is only rated.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yea. Ultimate Cap would never get on film. Well not in these films anyway. Stylistically it will be more like Ultimate but the characters personalities will be more 616 obviously. They are just more traditionally heroic.

I think Ultimate Cap in Volume 1 and 2 would be fine. It's around Volume 3 where he starts acting like a big jerk off.

Really though, as I said before, the biggest thing I want them to take from Ultimates is Cap's acclimation to the 21st century. I thought that Volume 1 had some great scenes dealing with the emotional trauma Cap had to go through after being re-awoken.

And I wouldn't mind a more ultimate-design style costume for Cap. Both the one designed for him in WWII and present time.

 

[Superhero 101]

First off Watchmen had superheroes nobody has heard of unlike Iron Man Hulk Captain America Thor
and second the film was Rated R. i doubt that Avengers will be Rated R

 

[TheVileOne]

No, Cap was a pretty big ******* in volume 1 as well.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No, Cap was a pretty big ******* in volume 1 as well.

How so? It has been a while since I read it, but I don't really remember anything major.

 

[Anubis]

Kicking Banner in the face, and that whole France bit.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Kicking Banner in the face, and that whole France bit.

Ehh, Banner had intentionally injected himself and killed hundreds of people and beat the crap out of Cap. It didn't seem too out of character for even 616 Cap to do, because let's face it, Banner in the Ultimates was a selfish prick, and his selfishness killed hundreds. (Banner is definitely my biggest gripe with the Ultimate-verse.)

The France comment was...well, it did kind of fit with the bias of the era. So that didn't bother me either. Cap is a 1940's solider after all.

However, I really didn't like it when you have him become just a government lacky who supports the powers that be no matter what like he was in Vol. 3.

Really though, if you take away those two instances, Cap didn't act bad at all. And I'm sure they're going to take out at least one, being the Banner incident, since Banner isn't the selfish prick in the movie-verse that he is in the comics. And I doubt the France comment would be in there, just for PR reasons.

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, but you can't take away those instances because they were *****e bag things to do. Banner did bring it upon himself, but, that's just bad form to kick a guy when he's down.

And Cap actually fought in WWII. He fought alongside the French Resistance. In the regular MU, he said that the government might have given up, but the people fought to the last man during the nazi occupation. That's the way Cap is. That crap he said was funny, but not something Captain America should be saying. USAgent maybe, but certainly not Cap.

Some people tend to bring up the whole whipping the ass of Pym too, but, eh, he had it coming and I could see regular Cap doing the same thing.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yeah, but you can't take away those instances because they were *****e bag things to do. Banner did bring it upon himself, but, that's just bad form to kick a guy when he's down.

And Cap actually fought in WWII. He fought alongside the French Resistance. In the regular MU, he said that the government might have given up, but the people fought to the last man during the nazi occupation. That's the way Cap is. That crap he said was funny, but not something Captain America should be saying. USAgent maybe, but certainly not Cap.

Some people tend to bring up the whole whipping the ass of Pym too, but, eh, he had it coming and I could see regular Cap doing the same thing.

I agree on the Pym thing, I'm still on the fence about Banner though.

However, I really don't mind these being not included in the movie, and they probably won't, which isn't a bad thing.

Really, the biggest aspect I want them to include from the Ultimate Cap is how hard the adjustment to living now was. The scene with Bucky and his old girlfriend was great, I'd love to see that on film. It could be very emotional.

 

[Brian2887]

Really, the biggest aspect I want them to include from the Ultimate Cap is how hard the adjustment to living now was. The scene with Bucky and his old girlfriend was great, I'd love to see that on film. It could be very emotional.

Ditto. Add in the scene from Arlington, the attempted escape from base because no black man is ranked as high as Fury, etc. Cap's adjustment to the 21st century could strike a major emotional cord.

 

[MilkmanDan]

Yeah, but you can't take away those instances because they were *****e bag things to do.

Still, it seems like an exaggeration to describe UltimateCap as a ******* based on just two brief moments of ungentleman-like behavior. Only reason those moments got people's notice was because Cap is such a paragon of virtue in 616 that it's shocking to see him behave even in a slightly improper . UltimateCap was generally speaking portrayed as a good, heroic and likable man. Only real exceptions seem to be a harmless if inpolite joke and kicking a mad-scientist right after he caused the death of hundreds of people ( and possibly before he was completely secured, I can't remember exactly).

 

[Anubis]

There was also in volume 2 his treatment of Thor. He was a total *****e to him. forget the fact that he just fought along side him to save the world.

 

[Artistsean]

I'm not sure why Watchmen didn't do so well, perhaps it was its rating, its unfamiliar characters and story (to the general audience), or the darkness of the story that people didn't feel like seeing over and over again,
I feel like it had a lot to do with the tone of the story (my opinion)
but
Avengers wont be patterned after the Ultimates I think, if Marvel is smart,
I think their best bet would be to pattern the Avengers after 616 Marvel like Iron Man did.
Its not just his design, its the overall tone of the story. It was true to the origin, it was fun, not so dark or heavy, it was like the classic comic brought to life.
If they used the 616 Marvel Avengers for the movie they would also be able to appeal their movie to a much wider audience, young children, families, elderly people, teenagers.
Its just my opinion though.

 

[Blade X]

Ah, I really don't care about that stuff. But like I said above, the things I want to see most in the Avengers movie that takes from the Ultimates is the Cap-related stuff.

I also liked that fact that they made Cap stronger in the Ultimates. Because with Cap, I've always felt more or less the same I have with Batman. Yes, they're both peak human, but in all fairness, somebody like Spider-man should be able to waste them in a fight. I don't care how smart or trained you are, somebody who can doge bullets and pick up a car is going to be able to beat you.

Which is why I liked the fact that they beefed him up in the Ultimates, but I was also glad they didn't go too far. I don't want Superman Cap, just a superhuman Cap with slightly super-human speed and strength.

Besides that, I loved the way the Skrulls were handled in Vol. 2, and I liked the portrayal of Hawkeye.

Unlike Cap, Batman is not peak human. Batman is just a normal well trained human being.

According to John Byrne (on how he see's Cap and/or would handle him), when he's standing still, Cap is peak human. However, when he starts moving and fighting, adrenaline kicks in and he becomes superhuman.

OMT, Cap being superhuman was done at least 3 times before THE ULTIMATES. The first time (I think) was in the 70's, when cap was exposed to some kind of chemicals that tempoarily gave him superhuman strength. The 2nd time was in the 70's CAPTAIN AMERICA TV movies. The 3rd time was (I think) in the HEROES REBORN Cap series, but I could be wrong about that one.

 

[Anubis]

Yup, you got it right.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Unlike Cap, Batman is not peak human. Batman is just a normal well trained human being.

According to John Byrne (on how he see's Cap and/or would handle him), when he's standing still, Cap is peak human. However, when he starts moving and fighting, adrenaline kicks in and he becomes superhuman.

OMT, Cap being superhuman was done at least 3 times before THE ULTIMATES. The first time (I think) was in the 70's, when cap was exposed to some kind of chemicals that tempoarily gave him superhuman strength. The 2nd time was in the 70's CAPTAIN AMERICA TV movies. The 3rd time was (I think) in the HEROES REBORN Cap series, but I could be wrong about that one.

Batman is basically peak human. No human being can bench 500+ pounds, have the abilities of an Olympic level gymnast, and be one of the top 5 martial artists in the world. It's simply impossible. However, I've always ignored those stats, even though it's "canon" according to DC.

But yeah, it makes more sense when you make Cap peak human, who goes superhuman in times of adrenaline, but even then, he would still be a low level Superhuman. I just liked the mid-level Superhuman Cap was shown to be in the Ultimates (benching 1000+ pounds it looked to be, which actually is still "peak human" if you want to be technical, I believe the world record for bench is around 1000lbs.)

 

[roach]

I think of Cap and Batman like this...Batman is at the peak that his body can take him. He is as strong as his body will let him. Cap has been scientifically taken to an area that we will never achieve on our own. He is the peak human. You get anymore faster or stronger and you are superhuman. The abilities that Neo had in the first Matrix minus the flying is what Cap should be doing

 

[Hmarrs]

I think the unfamiliarity of it's context.

See alot of parents were like 'Oh cool another superhero movie".As the movie began to unfold.I think there were in for a surprise. regardless of it's rating.It was not Marketed correctly.
You see Superhero's on screen regardless of the rating which I'm sure they thought "oh I'm sure the rating is just the violence"Boy were they in for a shocker.
If your familar with the material you probably won't bring a child.Those who were unfamilar probably did bring a child and were disapointed.Everyone else is just going to be confused.So who do you appeal to.There is no mass market(The Family Market).Unless if there had been watered down version (which probably would have upset alot of people).However if you water it down just enough to get by while still implying for the fan you have a winner,somehow you play it on both sides of the fence(Don't say it can't be done TDK did it).Sort of like Wolverine.Wolverine was not as deep as Watchmen but it was a little Darker then the previous X-men versions of Wolverine.It worked.Batman TDK took a little more chances and kind of took it as far as it it can be taken and yet still apealed to mass audiances.Punisher War Zone had the same problem as Watchmen.Parents are "hey my kid wantc to go see the Punisher but when he takes his 10 year old he what the heck all the gore and stuff.Tell me who is he going to recomend it to?
On top of it all the Watchmen was a story that should have been told in 2 films and even still could have easily done in three.
Ultimates Avengers won't,won't work.Parents will be freaked out for the kids and it won't be the Avengers the parents grew up with it will fail if done that way.

You will some fans and some teens but let's face it that is not enough to make a successful film.

 

[Hmarrs]

Repeat.

 

[Sawyer]

Kicking Banner in the face, and that whole France bit.

Oh, that was hilarious and everyone knows it.

Anyway, characterization... definitely 616. But in terms of look, I want the Ultimates costume.

 

[TheVileOne]

Hilariously stupid IMHO. Once again, Cap would never do or say those things. Because that's what *****ebags do. Cap is not a *****ebag.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think of Cap and Batman like this...Batman is at the peak that his body can take him. He is as strong as his body will let him. Cap has been scientifically taken to an area that we will never achieve on our own. He is the peak human. You get anymore faster or stronger and you are superhuman. The abilities that Neo had in the first Matrix minus the flying is what Cap should be doing

Well, like I said, if we go by the "official" stats for DC, Batman basically is peak human, because he can do things that no person, no matter how much training they have, could do. A human body can't bench 800lbs and still be a world-class gymnast. It's just not physically possible.

However, they don't portray Bats in the movies like that, so I'm fine with it.

And I would agree about the neo statement for Cap. I was actually pretty happy with them showing what Blonsky could do with a knock off Super-soldier serum. If they show Cap doing stuff like that I would be fine.

 

[LexCorp]

This is a terrible comparison in my mind. Not only did Watchmen do well, AS A "R" RATED FILM, but it is nothing like the Avengers.

This thread is illogical.

 

[TheVileOne]

It didn't do that well. Critics generally disliked it, and it didn't do as successful as the marketing machine pushed it.