Comics sick of gwen stacey

[Dragon]

to whoever said MJ is boring because all we ever hear about is whether or not she got an audition or w/e...actually to anyone who thinks MJ is boring, what could Gwen do better???? i find Gwen to be really boring compared to MJ, Gwen was just a pretty sweet girl, like the kind of girl thats the love interest in every movie from the start of film to the 80's. MJ actually has really developed character. the way i look at it was Gwen was only brought in to be killed so that peter and MJ would have a deeper relationship

Nope. Gwen was created, developed by Stan Lee to be Peter's wife. She was even based on Stan's own wife Joanie. The reason she was killed was because when Stan left the writing chores to Gerry Conway, who was at the time 19, Conway had no idea of how to write a married couple. No experience or maturity to understanding of committed relationships, so he along with Roy Thomas and John Romita decided to kill Gwen off. Stan has said repeatedly that he didn't want that.

And MJ is a boring character by comparison to Peter's life. If this were a comic book about a science nerd/crime photographer/part time teacher with a model/actress wife, then it would be fine. But that's not what this is. It's a comic book about a science nerd/crime photographer /part time teacher who happens to be Spider-Man. MJ's world of model/actress stuff becomes very tiresome very quickly, which is why she's been removed so many times and why they are considering permanently removing her. Even when they explained her back story, which I suppose at the time Marvel felt had some resonance, didn't have the intensity to match up with Peter's life.

Gwen on the other hand, as I've mentioned had tons of potential to match Peter's life. Smart, also a science major, an unexplained past, with a cop dad. She was always presented as being tough and ready to stand by Peter through anything. She stood her ground against the likes of Kingpin, Kraven and even Spider-Man whom she believed killed her father. This was all at the point when women in comics could be no more than damsels in distress.

Had they not killed her, she would likely have followed in her dad's footsteps and also become a cop. So what kind of storylines could this have generated- especially during the time when Spidey was wanted? Certainly more punch than if MJ got a new movie.

 

[Dragon]

Good grief... Betty!? She was a crush he easily got past... no way would I put THAT in the "first love" category.

No. The crush was Liz. Betty was his first love. He did consdier marrying her. and he didn't "easily" get past her. Read ASM #30-38.

The reason I think it is inconsistant with history, to bring up Gwen so much -- like an obsession he has never gotten past -- is because it IS inconsistant! There have been down times for Peter, where an event would make him morose over ALL the deaths of loved ones he has had to endure... but NOT soley pinning over Gwen. This is a recent phenomenon (thanks Spider-Man Blue )

Like I said in my above response to Spideylover- Gwen's death stands heads and shoulders above the rest- and Peter will and MUST carry that weight forever. She's the ONLY ONE who died only because Peter is Spider-Man. Only because he made the decision to live his life resonsiblity. Gwen paid DIRECTLY for that choice. No one else- Not Uncle Ben, Not Capt. Stacy, Not Harry not anyone else died specifically becuase of this.

MJ has a short shelf life!? No way. You've obviously never read her properly written... which I'll admit, is sometimes hard to find, with the hostile attitude towards the marriage and laziness concerning supporting characters that we've seen.

Do yourself a favor and read (or reread) the Sinister Six triogly by Adam-Troy Castro. Seriously. Spot on characterization... scary villains and the Peter/MJ relationship written as it should be. There is also a short story called "5-Minutes" by Peter David, which is another perfect example of what COULD be.

You are usually quick to call the writers on laziness... I can only assume you just don't like MJ as a character to make such a ridiculous statement.

I've been reading Spider-Man for thirty years. I know MJ as a character thoroughly. That's the problem. Cap, I understand that MJ brought you to the comics, but the fact that a few stories were generated with her doesn't mean she has a long shelf life. If anything, it underlines my point. MJ, her life, her pursuits are too light to mesh with Peter. The only thing she can be written as is his wife or girlfriend. Marvel rushed into making Peer and MJ a couple the second time around and IMO it never worked.

They made her too shallow. And by shallow, I don't mean as a person. I mean as a character. She, apart from being the woman Peter loves doesn't have the type of structure to be anything other than the shoulder Peter lays his head on. Look at the comic Marvel produces with her. It's just light girlie fluff.

Gwen on the other hand had the potential to be a strong dramatic and even action character, without having super powers. The groundwork was there, it's just that TPTB couldn't see it.

Could more be done with MJ? Yes. dump the acting. She's taken it far enough. Have her pursue something like psychology. Have her start volunteering to help people. Have her become a help to Peter in his pursuits as Spider-Man. Not running around on rooftops, but helping him gather info- talk to people- using her charming nature to get to places Peter would have to get to by punching someone.
Stop with the trite romantic nonsense and actually make her a substantial character. Prior to the ridiculous plot twists in Sins Past they had her using her head. That should have continued. Then her shelf life would greatly expand.

 

[Secret_Riddle]

its spelt stacy not stacey

 

[spideylover89]

Could more be done with MJ? Yes. dump the acting. She's taken it far enough. Have her pursue something like psychology. Have her start volunteering to help people. Have her become a help to Peter in his pursuits as Spider-Man. Not running around on rooftops, but helping him gather info- talk to people- using her charming nature to get to places Peter would have to get to by punching someone.
Stop with the trite romantic nonsense and actually make her a substantial character. Prior to the ridiculous plot twists in Sins Past they had her using her head. That should have continued. Then her shelf life would greatly expand.

This is why I have such a hard time with the writers arguments about her not meshing with Pete. As you stated above, there are so many options to making her a very worthwhile character and they aren't that hard to come up with either. Acting is not who MJ is, it's just what she does. You can change her career without changing the core of the character. She and Pete do work well together as characters mostly due to the fact that they are very different people (opposites attract). Also she not only has the ability to mesh well with Pete, but Spider-man too. The only thing that is standing in their way is her choice of career which is not set in stone.

However, the biggest problem right now is the fact that we don't even see MJ as an actress anymore. To change her career would mean actually paying attentiuon to it from time to time. What ever happened to that play she was doing? MJ has basically become another supporting cast member that serves no purpose other than existing. The relationship between her and Pete has reached roommate status, all they ever do is talk about his problems. They don't even fight anymore, not that it's required, but come one all married couples fight once in a while. We've seen more of Aunt May's private life than we have of Pete and MJ. If it wasn't for Sensational, Pete wouldn't even have a job.

Basically there are much bigger problems in the books right now, but it would be nice to see somebody try and handle the Peter Parker aspect of the Spider-man books.

 

[Venomfan]

didnt gwen also hate spider-man? im sure i remember her hating him, MJ always loved him

 

[Kevin]

didnt gwen also hate spider-man? im sure i remember her hating him, MJ always loved him

Gwen had a "i hate him/i REALLY hate him" thing with spider-man. this is the reason why i didn't like her because i always felt she wouldn't accept peter as spider-man. she might've, but it really didn't seem like she would.

 

[Dragon]

This is why I have such a hard time with the writers arguments about her not meshing with Pete. As you stated above, there are so many options to making her a very worthwhile character and they aren't that hard to come up with either. Acting is not who MJ is, it's just what she does. You can change her career without changing the core of the character. She and Pete do work well together as characters mostly due to the fact that they are very different people (opposites attract). Also she not only has the ability to mesh well with Pete, but Spider-man too. The only thing that is standing in their way is her choice of career which is not set in stone.

However, the biggest problem right now is the fact that we don't even see MJ as an actress anymore. To change her career would mean actually paying attentiuon to it from time to time. What ever happened to that play she was doing? MJ has basically become another supporting cast member that serves no purpose other than existing. The relationship between her and Pete has reached roommate status, all they ever do is talk about his problems. They don't even fight anymore, not that it's required, but come one all married couples fight once in a while. We've seen more of Aunt May's private life than we have of Pete and MJ. If it wasn't for Sensational, Pete wouldn't even have a job.

Basically there are much bigger problems in the books right now, but it would be nice to see somebody try and handle the Peter Parker aspect of the Spider-man books.

As far as her changing careers, the very fact that they hardly show her pursuing acting these days can lead them in the direction of dealing with it. Obviously Peter being hospitalized and "dying" would have gotten her time off from the play. So maybe a story could start with a phone call from the play's producer asking when she'd be coming back. this could start the ball rolling about MJ questioning her desire to continue acting.

Maybe talking with Peter and the events that have been happening around them recently gets her thinking about other possibilities. So a segue isn't too difficult.

 

[spideylover89]

Exactly, though it will never happen. Also with the events of the unmasking I could see MJ questioning her current lifestyle. Now that she and Pete are famous, their private lives are public and you know the press would love to get some juicey gossip on the superhero and top model. I can see her thinking the over abundance of fame and popularity would hurt their relationship, so she decides she's going to go back to school and finish her studies in criminal psychology or even start a career in something along the lines of medical work (that would really help Peter out).

 

[Traveller]

I think everything moves to the movies. Mj won't disappear because she is in the movies. She won't give up the actress because she is an actress in the movies. But Gwen will come the movies so maybe the Marvel will bring back her from the death. I'm a big Gwen fan but I'm just 38 so I didn't read Spider-Man when she died. But I read back and I think she is the best girl for Peter.
Mary Jane just... substitute. It's true nowadays we get a lot of Gwen but maybe this just for the movies. When the Spider-Man #3 get in the theatres everybody wants to know who is the Gwen Stacy. And Marvel knows that. So they will give them a lot of Gwen Stacy. They want rid of MJ and the marriage maybe this way they could. Gwen comes back, Peter feels the House of M memories again and MJ leaves him for it. This way no marriage but Peter has a fan-base girlfriend.
Actually I'm bored with MJ now. I liked her when the Lee-Romita era (go-go MJ) but now she just... vegetate.
I don't mind any Gwen as we could get anyway.

 

[Eye Doc]

I've read the last few post and I think you both have good points. Gwen had potential as a character like Dragon said because so much of her past and character motivations were unexplored. MJ once had the perfect personality to offset Peter's intoverted nature and she once brought a sense of fun to his often gloomy life. Both girls are/were capable of making him happy.

I also agree with Dragon about the choice of MJ's career. Having her be an actress/supermodel really doesn't add much to the book. The book is about Spider-Man. Therefore, it's really an action book at it's core. If all MJ (or any female lead for that matter) can contribute to the strip is an occasional "I love you" or show up as eye candy she'll eventually start to wear out her welcome. The same thing would've eventually happened to Gwen had she lived.

Having Peter date/marry a cop, reporter, tv news personality, or just someone with an interesting life would bring more drama to the strip and ultimately make the relationship more interesting. I'm not saying MJ needs to be written out. But, if she does stay she has to more interesting than she is now. I think that's why a lot of writers want her gone. They don't know how to handle a PERMANENT love interest. One guy may like her. But when he leaves, the next may want to bring in someone else or not deal with a love interest at all. When Peter is married, every writer has to deal with the wife, and that can be hard if you don't have a clue as to writer the character and make her an important element in the book.

Eye Doc

 

[spideylover89]

What so many writers don't seem to realize though is that MJ doesn't have to be in every issue. If you only have a limited ability to write marriages then cut down on her panel time. There were plenty of issues back in the 80's and 90's where MJ was gone a lot because of her work.

It doesn't solve the inability to write permanent relationships, but it seriously relieves some of the burden.