Siege

[Manic]

He could've just kept them in prison or the Thunderbolts. Instead, he made himself liable for the lives of countless people by giving murderers carte blanche to wreak havoc as long as no one could trace it back to him.

I know you want to see Norman Osborn as this noble, tortured soul who's hiding a terrible demon inside, but he's really just an unstable sociopath who managed to repress his id whenever appropriate. He was more concerned with his own power than the wellbeing of the American citizens he was appointed to protect. If Bendis wanted Osborn to be a man fighting his inner demons, then he should've given the memo to every other writer at Marvel who didn't portray him that way.

 

[fifthfiend]

You saying he's wrong then?

Cause I mean, Stamford happening in comics is proof enough. And yes, I know it's all part of one overarching longass story and what not and because of Stamford this eventually happened, but you gonna tell me that something like Stamford wouldn't happen again and that Norman is wrong when he says that one day soon everything is gonna end because people think they can just do whatever the hell they want?

If Stamford's proof then, yeah, of course he's wrong, because Stamford is mainly proof that people who are known to be villainous murderers of innocents will evade capture by murdering innocents, and secondarily proof that people trying to apprehend villainous murderers of innocents will sometimes make mistakes in doing so, failing to prevent said murderers from murdering people.

What all of this wasn't was proof of 'heroes going too far' or whatever it would have to be proof of to justify like, any of what happened after it.

(And all of this is completely setting aside that what it's really proof of is that Mark Millar is a ****** writer who wrote a terrible comic about the actual New Warriors being kidnapped and replaced by *****ey androids.)

 

[Anubis]

In a nut shell.

 

[Saint]

Yes, I understand. They're the "same person". But they're not. At all.

No, they are. Completely. The Green Goblin may be the face Norman Osborn gives to his own evil, but it's still his own evil. Everything the Goblin wanted to do is something Norman wanted to do. There is absolutely zero distinction between the two; Norman simply invented a persona to do all that stuff he wanted to do. The bottom line is that if you take every immoral thought you've ever had, and every bad deed you've ever done, and say "Oh, that wasn't me--that was my other persona, the Silver Sugarglider," the fact remains that it's still just you, regardless of what you want to call it.

Bendis wrote Osborne as trying to actually do good,

No. What Bendis wrote (which, incidentally, is only a small piece in the Osborn puzzle, and sometimes inconsistent with the character's personality and history) was someone who would go to any means to achieve power. Norman may have said he was doing this for all the right reasons, and sometimes he may have even believed it, but he wasn't. He was doing it for the glory and benefit of Norman Osborn. At every turn he put protecting his own power and influence above all other interests.

Incidentally, the Superhero Registration Act being repealed with the fall of Osborn was dumb. Iron Man was right: the Registration act was a good thing. They just needed to omit the part about needing to reveal your identity to the government. Just stick to licensing heroes.

 

[SouLeSS]

How did you know my super villain identity?!

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Incidentally, the Superhero Registration Act being repealed with the fall of Osborn was dumb. Iron Man was right: the Registration act was a good thing. They just needed to omit the part about needing to reveal your identity to the government. Just stick to licensing heroes.

That part of it still exists to some extent. Steve's monitoring the superhumans and deploying some via the Avengers teams. He's just eliminated the compulsory nature of making heroes into an actual military force. He approaches heroes about joining him and Pym approaches kids about joining the Avengers Academy. Those who agree get to be heroes and receive the benefit of all the previous Avengers' experience and training. Those who don't get to go back to their lives. If they cross any lines, the Avengers will step in and stop them. It's an informal system that still works without creating casualties of a flawed system like Cloud 9, an innocent, naive girl forced into becoming a cold assassin.

Actually, come to think of it, the Avengers are now effectively like a non-mutant version of the X-Men. They open their doors to any superhumans who want to be heroes and receive training and such, stop any others who become a threat, and leave the rest free to live their lives in peace.

 

[Manic]

It sounds like Steve is running superheroes in the US like... well, every other superhero that has a registration system. If you sign up to work for the government, cool; if you choose not to sign up, you're cool as long as you don't cross the line.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Also true.

I hope we get to see some of the oversight process. What happens if a hero who's actually on one of Diamondback's state teams or, heaven forbid, even an Avengers team crosses the line? Does Steve put together a tribunal with whichever Avengers founders are available and hold a superhero court martial?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Heh... Moony the Loony springs to mind.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I was thinking Wolverine, but Wolverine usually gets a free pass. Hell, Cap actually recruited him this time specifically for his "ruthlessnes."

 

[Brainiac 8]

Steve: "None of you should EVER cross the line! That would make you a villian....except for Wolverine...stabbing people in the face is basically all he has left."

 

[Manic]

I'm all for a little pragmatic killing in self defense, but it's ridiculous how the Avengers and X-Men are basically allowing Wolverine to be the sanctioned assassin of the superhero world.

 

[Brainiac 8]

I'm waiting for the Avengers to officially sanction Team Stabby as an Avenger team...that would rock so hard.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm all for a little pragmatic killing in self defense, but it's ridiculous how the Avengers and X-Men are basically allowing Wolverine to be the sanctioned assassin of the superhero world.

Contrary to how I probably make it sound, I'm not 100% averse to killing, either. But the bar for it has been lowered pretty ridiculously and no one really reacts to it or cares about it anymore. That's what bugs me. Cops who have to kill people in the real world tend to have long-term problems dealing with the weight of it. A little more of that when superheroes kill people would not be amiss. Hawkeye being distraught over his attempted genocide of the Skrulls would not be amiss. We saw a little bit of a change in that policy with Thor appearing to genuinely regret having to kill Bob in Siege. Hopefully that'll be the new trend, although Steve's recruitment qualifications for Wolverine do not fill me with hope for that.

 

[BoredGuy]

Ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean killing.

Steve may just want him around for intimidation purposes, little good cop bad cop.

It would be good if they show Cap or Maria Hill stop and reprimand him for trying to off someone.

 

[Manic]

Ruthlessness, as in to be without ruth. I know how silly that just sounded, but ruth is actually a rarely used word that dictionary.com defines as "Compassion or pity for another. Sorrow or misery about one's own misdeeds or flaws."

That means Captain America wanted someone on the team who is merciless and shows no remorse for his past actions. There's a difference between intimidating and merciless. When we're talking about a man with claws coming out of his hands who spends his time stabbing people, "ruthless" doesn't mean "scares people a lot."

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It would be good if they show Cap or Maria Hill stop and reprimand him for trying to off someone.

It would be good, but I very much doubt we'll see it happen.

 

[Spider-Jay420]

I was thinking Wolverine, but Wolverine usually gets a free pass. Hell, Cap actually recruited him this time specifically for his "ruthlessnes."

and "selflessness" too.

"the quality of not putting yourself first but being willing to give your time or money or effort etc. for others"

That's a heroic quality.

 

[Eros]

Ruthlessness doesn't necessarily mean killing.

Steve may just want him around for intimidation purposes, little good cop bad cop.

It would be good if they show Cap or Maria Hill stop and reprimand him for trying to off someone.

LMAO Do you actually think a "Reprimand" from Maria Hill will stop wolverine from Killing someone? Maybe he might listen to Cap, but really now Xavier couldnt stop him from Killing his enemies, and wolverine respected him almost more then anyone.

 

[Alastor]

I liked how Wolverine's role in the Avengers was depicted in the new Black Widow series. Also, Jason Aaron wrote a nice two parter offering an in-story explanation for Logan being on 3 different teams and showing up everywhere. Sure, its still all business for Marvel, but story-wise, I was satisfied. I think he can work as an Avenger, but he hasn't been given too much to do. Same with Spider-Man. I love him as an Avenger, but the only times he has stood out weren't even in any Avengers title, in Agents of Atlas for example.

 

[Saint]

I was pretty unimpressed when Bendis added Spider-Man to the team, but he's actually turned out to be a great addition. In sharp contrast to my original position on the matter, I really wish they'd finally let him say "Avengers Assemble!" That would make him seem more like a 'real" Avenger.

 

[fifthfiend]

Contrary to how I probably make it sound, I'm not 100% averse to killing, either. But the bar for it has been lowered pretty ridiculously and no one really reacts to it or cares about it anymore. That's what bugs me. Cops who have to kill people in the real world tend to have long-term problems dealing with the weight of it. A little more of that when superheroes kill people would not be amiss. Hawkeye being distraught over his attempted genocide of the Skrulls would not be amiss. We saw a little bit of a change in that policy with Thor appearing to genuinely regret having to kill Bob in Siege. Hopefully that'll be the new trend, although Steve's recruitment qualifications for Wolverine do not fill me with hope for that.

Yeah but it's always been okay if Wolverine does it.

****, it's practically a power.

 

[fifthfiend]

"Wolverine: regeneration, enhanced senses, adamantium skeleton, and a powerful low-level psychic signal that induces people to accept his horrific acts of violence."

 

[Alastor]

I was pretty unimpressed when Bendis added Spider-Man to the team, but he's actually turned out to be a great addition. In sharp contrast to my original position on the matter, I really wish they'd finally let him say "Avengers Assemble!" That would make him seem more like a 'real" Avenger.

JMS did a storyline in Amazing with Spidey fighting Hydra as an Avenger and that is really the only time he's been shown as a competent, smart veteran, besides when Jeff Parker is writing him. Dan Slott did a good job of showing that Peter is in many ways a genius, but still portrayed him as a joke when it came to being an Avenger.

 

[Saint]

JMS did a storyline in Amazing with Spidey fighting Hydra as an Avenger and that is really the only time he's been shown as a competent, smart veteran, besides when Jeff Parker is writing him. Dan Slott did a good job of showing that Peter is in many ways a genius, but still portrayed him as a joke when it came to being an Avenger.

It's absolutely true that most of his time as an Avenger has been as the team's comedic relief, which is unfortunate. On the plus side, I think it's good to see his relations with the larger hero community improving; Spider-Man is a lot like Dick Grayson in the respect that they grew up with their respective superhero communities, and I think they're both the type deserving of a great deal of respect and friendship from their peers--the type where, if either one of them called for help, the entire community would come running.

That's usually not been the case with Spider-Man; he's existed on the fringes of the her set for a long time, with many heroes having little knowledge of him or sometimes even being suspicious of him. So it's a nice change of pace to see him get the recognition he deserves.