Superman Returns Singer was certainly being literal when he said we'd get...

[Showtime]

I like the more floppy hairstyle that Routh has as Clark.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

He uses nice conditioner lol

 

[skruloos]

Once again, you confuse the issue. It's not about adopting a philosophy for spiritual guidence, it's personal identity. Clark Kent grew up in Kansas for some 12 years never thinking he was anything other than Clark Kent. He referred to himself as CK, and his environment reinforced this.

In order for Kal-el to truly exist he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el.

Kal-el is nothing more than a footnote to a life that can never be. Maybe if you want to sell flowers in the airport, fine. But Superman isn't so flaky that he'd manufacture a distinct personality so he could get in touch with his dead alien side.

Interest in one's original cultural roots is not the basis for creating a new persona, that's demented. I mean literally, that would be dementia at work.

No it wouldn't. It's about developing a cultural identity. It's about consciously learning about your roots and history and adopting it into your own. How is it demented? I take it you're not the child of first generation immigrants.

I am. And I know many others who are. I know many who are children of third or fourth generation immigrants who want to gain a better grasp of their cultural heritage so that it may become part of their identity. There is great pride to be found in a cultural identity. I've had friends and acquaintances make pilgrimages to Ireland, Scotland, Israel, Japan, Brazil, Vietnam, and China and study their history so that they may get to know their cultural heritage, adopt it, and celebrate it. I've had a couple friends born of Japanese ancestry in Hawaii who after learning about his family's culture more also adopted a Japanese name. They are proud of their ancestral background and culture and have embraced it. They are still US American born and raised but they have also come to learn about their heritage and have adopted that culture. Why is that demented?

 

[BareKnucklez]

I find it quite humbleing.

that after all this time..people are finally seeing routh as the right guy for the job,

Well done guys.

lol dont speak for us all... Im still not 100% sold on him.
Dude still looks WAY to young, and thin for the role... But only time will tell if he was indeed right for the job.

 

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

lol dont speak for us all... Im still not 100% sold on him.
Dude still looks WAY to young, and thin for the role... But only time will tell if he was indeed right for the job.

Well i don't think i spoke for all of you..

 

[Metropolis_Man]

He uses nice conditioner lol

That he does. I tried getting my hair that thin and smooth, but it always ends up looking like the ocean.

 

[Oldguy]

No it wouldn't. It's about developing a cultural identity. It's about consciously learning about your roots and history and adopting it into your own. How is it demented? I take it you're not the child of first generation immigrants.

I am. And I know many others who are. I know many who are children of third or fourth generation immigrants who want to gain a better grasp of their cultural heritage so that it may become part of their identity. There is great pride to be found in a cultural identity. I've had friends and acquaintances make pilgrimages to Ireland, Scotland, Israel, Japan, Brazil, Vietnam, and China and study their history so that they may get to know their cultural heritage, adopt it, and celebrate it. I've had a couple friends born of Japanese ancestry in Hawaii who after learning about his family's culture more also adopted a Japanese name. They are proud of their ancestral background and culture and have embraced it. They are still US American born and raised but they have also come to learn about their heritage and have adopted that culture. Why is that demented?

Tell me when your friends got back, did they change their names and adopt new identities? Maybe I was a bit harsh, it's not demented, flaky perhaps, but not demented.

Researching ones, and subsequently adopting cultural heritage isn't flaky. Only when one creates "new" identities out of it, do the men in white coats get antsy. But your country embraces flake now, I know how much you all value your infinite personal expression.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.

 

[Oldguy]

He uses nice conditioner lol

Must....
turn away....
from avatar....
so pretty.....

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

But your country embraces flake now, I know how much you all value your infinite personal expression.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.

You always gotta throw that one last knife in there at the end, don'tcha As much as it's unneccessary--it's also pretty astute. So I can't really clown too much, but still, you made your point without tacking that on the end. But you're all about the spices and garnish on the meal.

So, the difference between what you're describing and the Superman Mythos as it's being played out in this movie is that Superman isn't ADOPTING a new identity out of thin air based on a misguided need to belong. It's not a new identity to him. It's his identity being presented by his father. He spent 12 years in some sort of weird pan-dimensional coma thing as his father filled him in on who he was. So, as someone in the thread has already pointed out, that fulfills your "he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el." requirement.

He knows he's Kal-el, and I'm pretty sure that in this movie, it's what he thinks of himself as. I'm pretty sure that's what he thought of himself as in Superman I and II as well. Superman was never HIS name for himself. Kal-El would be. As would be clark.

I don't think, for Superman, it was so much a conscious choice as it was a reconciliation between his two upbringings. He's accepting both at the same time as opposed to denying one for the other, which is more what you're describing.

 

[skruloos]

Tell me when your friends got back, did they change their names and adopt new identities?

Adopt new identities? Not necessarily. However they did incorporate their new found cultural knowledge into their identity. One in particular, Mike, adopted a Japanese name, Yukiyushi, to celebrate his heritage.

Researching ones, and subsequently adopting cultural heritage isn't flaky. Only when one creates "new" identities out of it, do the men in white coats get antsy.

You make it seem like identities are static things. You also make it seem like these people are completely abondoning the identities they had grown up with. That is not so. They are merely expanding their identity to include their cultural heritage.

Why, being the model society that you are, I can see how well that works for y'all.

Hey...if anyone has read my posts, they'd know that I don't think the US is the model society.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Must have missed this thread before,It is very true that the Reporter Clark and Farm Clark have a different presence to them but i haven't seen enough to say there is many differences between Superman and Farm Clark as both have the brooding vibe going on in look and presence

 

[Oldguy]

Adopt new identities? Not necessarily. However they did incorporate their new found cultural knowledge into their identity. One in particular, Mike, adopted a Japanese name, Yukiyushi, to celebrate his heritage.

You make it seem like identities are static things. You also make it seem like these people are completely abondoning the identities they had grown up with. That is not so. They are merely expanding their identity to include their cultural heritage.


Hey...if anyone has read my posts, they'd know that I don't think the US is the model society.

Ya yur right, I apologize for misrepresenting you. Identities aren't static, they just aren't or at least shouldn't be a conscious desicion.

Even in your example, your japanese friend has changes his name to embrace his cultural heritage. At one time his family abandoned it to ease assimilation into western culture. So now he's Yukiyushi instead of Mike. His identity hasn't changed tho has it? I mean his title changed, his name, but he's not a different personality is he? His identity is still the same, his values, beliefs and his manner didn't change. Did he adopt japanese nationalism? The kind that still promotes segregation in Japan? The only "values" he's going to adopt from Japan are ones that reinforce the ones he's already established here in NA. Despite his cultural reawakening, he's not going to adopt anything that conflicts with his original identity.

In this regard, Yukiyushi will always be Mike.

I'm all for Superman exploring his cultural heritage, but for him to value it above his Kansas heritage, is unnatural. To make Kal-el the default personality and CK the disguise, to choose what could have been over what was, is a betrayal to the Kent's love and frankly an insult to the entire human race. It's a gross misrepresentation of the character, as he's been depicted in the source material for the last 20+ years, and subsequently still exists after the latest continuity shuffle. Infinite Crisis is over and Clark Kent is who he is, and Superman is what he can dew.

Unless Morrison has his way....

 

[Oldguy]

You always gotta throw that one last knife in there at the end, don'tcha As much as it's unneccessary--it's also pretty astute. So I can't really clown too much, but still, you made your point without tacking that on the end. But you're all about the spices and garnish on the meal.

Just like how, you are all about commentary rather than participation?

So, the difference between what you're describing and the Superman Mythos as it's being played out in this movie is that Superman isn't ADOPTING a new identity out of thin air based on a misguided need to belong. It's not a new identity to him. It's his identity being presented by his father. He spent 12 years in some sort of weird pan-dimensional coma thing as his father filled him in on who he was. So, as someone in the thread has already pointed out, that fulfills your "he would have to have lived in an environment that reinforced that identity to a degree that he would refer to himself as Kal-el." requirement.

He knows he's Kal-el, and I'm pretty sure that in this movie, it's what he thinks of himself as. I'm pretty sure that's what he thought of himself as in Superman I and II as well. Superman was never HIS name for himself. Kal-El would be. As would be clark.

I don't think, for Superman, it was so much a conscious choice as it was a reconciliation between his two upbringings. He's accepting both at the same time as opposed to denying one for the other, which is more what you're describing.

Ah see the difference being, I don't value Donner's movie as the definitive Superman. It's at least one generation removed from the source material. Not to mention that it's representitive of pre-crisis Superman. Superman as he is now, is a farm boy from Kansas. He didn't just wipe his harddrive when he finds out about his kryptonian heritage like he did when Pa-el fed him electric kool-aid when he re-neducated him in the fortress for 12 years.

We are all the products of our upbringing. We may choose to adopt culture, in an effort to express our style, but our values, whether they be of tolerance or hate or somewhere in between were decided for us.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

Just like how, you are all about commentary rather than participation?

Aren't you fond of overstatement Besides which, how is commentary NOT participation on a messageboard anyway?

And if we're discussing this movie, and this movie's character, which is built off the last two movie's character, it kneecaps your argument if you're just going to throw out the movies. No one here is talking "The definitive Superman" we're talking the one in Superman Returns and his characterization. You're still talking either/or, I'm saying with Superman in this movie--it seems to be accepting both at the same time and moving from there. he's not denying one for the other, ("wiping harddrives") which is what you're arguing against. If that was happening in the movies, you'd have something. But it appears they're not, but rather that he's reconciled one with the other--so you don't

 

[Oldguy]

Aren't you fond of overstatement Besides which, how is commentary NOT participation on a messageboard anyway?

If you don't already get it, why would I waste time explaining it to you?

And if we're discussing this movie, and this movie's character, which is built off the last two movie's character, it kneecaps your argument if you're just going to throw out the movies. No one here is talking "The definitive Superman" we're talking the one in Superman Returns and his characterization. You're still talking either/or, I'm saying with Superman in this movie--it seems to be accepting both at the same time and moving from there. he's not denying one for the other, ("wiping harddrives") which is what you're arguing against. If that was happening in the movies, you'd have something. But it appears they're not, but rather that he's reconciled one with the other--so you don't

So it's accurate characterization because it's an elseworld's Superman story vaguley tied to a previous elseworld's storyline? Why didn't you just say so?

 

[skruloos]

Ya yur right, I apologize for misrepresenting you. Identities aren't static, they just aren't or at least shouldn't be a conscious desicion.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Wouldn't educating yourself be a conscious decision to augment your identity?

Even in your example, your japanese friend has changes his name to embrace his cultural heritage. At one time his family abandoned it to ease assimilation into western culture. So now he's Yukiyushi instead of Mike. His identity hasn't changed tho has it? I mean his title changed, his name, but he's not a different personality is he? His identity is still the same, his values, beliefs and his manner didn't change. Did he adopt japanese nationalism? The kind that still promotes segregation in Japan? The only "values" he's going to adopt from Japan are ones that reinforce the ones he's already established here in NA. Despite his cultural reawakening, he's not going to adopt anything that conflicts with his original identity.

He didn't adopt nationalism but he did adopt Japanese spirituality. And he didn't abandon his American name. He merely added Yukiyushi to his name so that it became his middle name. I think you're trying to make this a black and white issue when it isn't. He isn't choosing to BE Japanese over being American . He is augmenting his American identity with his heritage and understanding of Japanese culture.

In this regard, Yukiyushi will always be Mike.

Yes. And Clark will always be Kal-El and Kal-El will always be Clark. Which is why a few people, myself included, refer to Clark in Smallville and Superman as Clark/Kal-El and the glasses wearing Clark who works at the Daily Planet, Metropolis Clark. He's not an entirely different identity. He is merely putting forth different facets of his identity.

Just as Mike is very aware of his mannerisms when he is in Japan (suppressing his American tendency to be loud and outspoken), Metropolis Clark suppresses his powers and is aware at all times to carry himself differently. But when he is in Smallville with his parents, he can be totally relaxed. He is one with his Kryptonian powers, which makes him Kal-El because even if he didn't have knowledge of his Kryptonian heritage he does have the biology, and Clark because of the values that were instilled in him by his human parents.

I'm all for Superman exploring his cultural heritage, but for him to value it above his Kansas heritage, is unnatural.

I have certainly not argued that he values it above his Kansas heritage. I put them equal to each other.

To make Kal-el the default personality and CK the disguise, to choose what could have been over what was, is a betrayal to the Kent's love and frankly an insult to the entire human race.

I think the problem here is in semantics. When I say CK is the disguise, I don't mean the Clark that was raised by the Kents, the one who is able to lift up tractors for his dad or race through cornfields. I mean the Clark who goes off to Metropolis, puts on glasses, slouches and is making a conscious decision to hide his powers.

 

[Fatboy Roberts]

So it's accurate characterization

For this movie, yes. If you don't already get that, why would I waste time explaining it to you?

What did you think you were arguing, silly old man?

 

[skruloos]

We are all the products of our upbringing. We may choose to adopt culture, in an effort to express our style, but our values, whether they be of tolerance or hate or somewhere in between were decided for us.

I don't think that's necessarily true but it speaks volumes about where you stand on an argument on the death penalty.

In your ideology, as I understand it, there is no hope for rehabilitation. That a person who was once a gangster or part of the KKK could never consciously choose to educate themselves further to better themselves and distance themselves from hate groups. Would this be accurate?

 

[Oldguy]

According to Donner continuity, the 12yr tutelage would certainly qualify as living some part of his life as Kal-El.

That's an excellent point. In Donner's continuity, Jor-el excorsizes all human vestiges from Superman, well almost all of them. In the end he decides to be selfish and alter human history.

In the comics, the Kents taught Clark, to hide his great strength from people or they will fear him. To remain vigil, for he must use it to assist humanity. Clark Kent created Superman to operate freely. But what does Shuster know about Superman anyways?

Yes Donner did 'schizm Superman in 78, much to my dismay even as a young boy. (Where'd Superboy go? The inner Youngguy sobs) but you're right, as Singer is following an elseworld's continuity, I can't specifically fault him as "not getting it".

 

[SuperDaniel]

^^^In the Donner movie, the Kent`s lesson for value of life, being put here for a reason, was more important than his kryptonian lessons. So, yes, in Superman the movie, the way i see it, Superman rejects his kryptonian/better than humans side to alter course of history and save Lois and became more human in the process because of love, reafirming that Superman is the most human alien.

Anyway, he didn`t spend 12 years in the fortress learning from Jor-el. That was just a metaphor. Jor-el speech, the way i see it, was a metaphor of the period of growing and maturing we all pass. The period of everyone`s life between 18 and 30 years old. Its not that he was brainwashed for 12 years in the fortress. Thats stupid, in my opinion.

 

[Cmill216]

It's cool to see they actually payed to attention to the look of the different "characters". Singer loves Superman, and you can see that in his attention to detail here alone.

 

[Oldguy]

I don't think that's necessarily true but it speaks volumes about where you stand on an argument on the death penalty.

In your ideology, as I understand it, there is no hope for rehabilitation. That a person who was once a gangster or part of the KKK could never consciously choose to educate themselves further to better themselves and distance themselves from hate groups. Would this be accurate?

You want a taste of my ideology? Gangsters should never be convicted of murdering other gangsters. In your country, most gang members in jail for murder, killed some PoS what needed killing anyways. In my ideology, murder isn't "murder" unless an innocent has died. Do I believe in capital punishment for murder 2 or manslaughter? Certainly not. To err is human, to forgive divine.

Who am I in favour of going from court house to smoke house, no waiting, no appeals? Guys like Clifford Olsen. He's my national treasure. You see in the late 70's and early 80's, Cliff was a busy boy. Look him up.
Every year he costs the taxpayers a lot of money to keep alive. Why? He will never be allowed back into gen pop inside of prison let alone society. so what's the point of keeping him alive? Ideological fantasy?

C. Lee, it ain't my fault, he started this wild cap punish debate.

 

[Oldguy]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Wouldn't educating yourself be a conscious decision to augment your identity?

I'm glad we agree augmentation isn't alteration.

 

[SolidSnakeMGS]

So when something is enlarged or expanded, it isn't changed? Ummm...ok.

 

[skruloos]

You want a taste of my ideology? Gangsters should never be convicted of murdering other gangsters. In your country, most gang members in jail for murder, killed some PoS what needed killing anyways. In my ideology, murder isn't "murder" unless an innocent has died. Do I believe in capital punishment for murder 2 or manslaughter? Certainly not. To err is human, to forgive divine.

That still doesn't address my main point though. Do you believe in rehabilitation? If someone's identity and values were decided for us, that would imply that rehabilitation and personal change is not possible.