Singers Vision Of Xmen 3?

Seen said:
Singer's movies never had an epic quality -- they were admittedly smaller, more character-driven pictures.

Well we've seen stuff in this teaser that we didn't even get in Singer's films, so for me it's all relative.

Remember, Ratner doesn't have the burden of starting this franchise. Singer had alot to establish in X1, so he made the movie smaller. But, then there was X2 which was much bigger in it's scale, while still doing some more set-up. You can't say Singer's other sequel/s wouldn't have gotten bigger/more epic(which I thought X2 was). Alot of the stuff in the teaser is stuff Singer had set-up or was thinking of using too(Phoenix, Danger Room, Beast, I think Angel, along with him also wanting the Sentinels) Ratner gets to hop right in with the whole world set and big pieces already moving(Phoenix and the Brotherhood coming back). Also remember the character-driven part of your statement, which was a big reason why I liked the first two films. For all anyone knows Ratner's movie could be all flash and no character. Singer's films being character-driven isn't a bad thing. I just think that some of these slights on Singer don't seem fair or true to me.
 
there's a definite need to get an even balance between character development and doing justice to the effects and, with people like magneto, powers of the characters. singers films were well character driven for some charcters. no compaints there, but the x-men seemed weak apart from xavier and the possibility of him killing all mutants, and that was only when enhanced by cerebro.

Ratners films will have action, and are likeyly to do justice to the x-mens powers but i'm not sure if he's the kind of director to develop characters you can care about and sympathise with, we'll see.
 
Ichi said:
Remember, Ratner doesn't have the burden of starting this franchise.

No, he has the bigger burden. He has to suceeed a brilliant director and two fantastic films. There's a lot of pressure on him, from the studio, fans and critics, to do more than just a satisfactory job but make a film that surpasses the last two installments.

People will be expecting an amazing film, based from the last two which were critically well recieved and financially big hits. No one was expecting anything with Singer's first film, and it exceeded expectations because everyone thought it would fail. And thus the anticipation was already built-in and guaranteed because of the success of the first film in regards with X2.

Plus Ratner has already faced a lot of criticism from certain fans and has to finish a film in a very short time, besides taking over from two other directors and still manage to produce a good movie. It's a whole lot of pressure and burden and if Brett Ratner pulls it off it'll put him in a higher category than Bryan Singer.

Singer had alot to establish in X1, so he made the movie smaller.

No, FOX shortstringed his budget. If he had more time and more money, he would've been allowed to make a bigger and greater film.

Singer has said he wasn't happy with the way X-MEN turned out. It was still a terrific film, but it was still lackluster. He was forced to make it smaller because he had no other choice.

But, then there was X2 which was much bigger in it's scale, while still doing some more set-up.

True. FOX gave him more money (around $45-50 million more, to be exact) and more time (Ian McKellen said in this film he was finally allowed some R&R) which resulted in (obviously) a better picture.

You can't say Singer's other sequel/s wouldn't have gotten bigger/more epic(which I thought X2 was).

Well I'm not sure how Singer would've handled X3, besides including Jean Grey in some degree, so you're right.

If FOX gave him more money and time, more than in X2, and Singer was allowed to include such things as Sentinels, quite possibly. But we don't know that, so it's speculative conjecture at this point. All we can do is judge from Singer's previous efforts.

Alot of the stuff in the teaser is stuff Singer had set-up or was thinking of using too(Phoenix, Danger Room, Beast, I think Angel, along with him also wanting the Sentinels)

Do you know that for sure?

Ratner gets to hop right in with the whole world set and big pieces already moving(Phoenix and the Brotherhood coming back).

He also has to bring characters such as Beast, Angel, Juggernaut etc to life. That ain't an easy task.

Also remember the character-driven part of your statement, which was a big reason why I liked the first two films.

I agree. Me too.

For all anyone knows Ratner's movie could be all flash and no character.

Have you seen RED DRAGON? And Avi Arad has said countless times that the filmmakers are going to continue the key emphasis on character and emotion in this film -- it's why the X-Men films have been so popular and successful in the first place.

Singer's films being character-driven isn't a bad thing.

Did I say that? If so, then I'm wrong. Of course Singer's films being character-driven isn't bad, but X-Men is a comic-book franchise and it needs big scope and scale.

Something the first film, and to an extent, the second film lacked. Of course there were still good films, but flawed.

I just think that some of these slights on Singer don't seem fair or true to me.

Well that is your opinion and naturally you are entitled to it. :)
 
weapon-x said:
there's a definite need to get an even balance between character development and doing justice to the effects and, with people like magneto, powers of the characters. singers films were well character driven for some charcters. no compaints there, but the x-men seemed weak apart from xavier and the possibility of him killing all mutants, and that was only when enhanced by cerebro.

Ratners films will have action, and are likeyly to do justice to the x-mens powers but i'm not sure if he's the kind of director to develop characters you can care about and sympathise with, we'll see.

I like you.:up: :up:
I hate the rest of you!!!:) ;)
 
Seen said:
The Liberty Island sequence was mostly IN DOORS. As was the White House sequence, which was cool nonetheless. The Alakli Lake Dam sequence was an improvement, yes.

Yes, barring Sabretooth and Wolverine's brawl on the head and Magneto's mutant machine in the torch.

But they weren't nearly as epic as Magneto re-routing the entire Golden Gate Bridge, infiltrating Alcatraz, toppling vehicles, with multiple mutants, Storm flying & fighting assorted mutant villains, a Danger Room sequence (supposedly, with Colossus giving Wolverine the Fastball special) etc etc.

We'll see, final products don't always look as good as the trailers :p .
 
TheVileOne said:
Yes, barring Sabretooth and Wolverine's brawl on the head and Magneto's mutant machine in the torch.

Yes that was pretty cool but the sequences in X3 look far better IMO.

We'll see, final products don't always look as good as the trailers :p .

Of course. Right now we definitely will have to see, but currently it looks pretty good. :)
 
That X3/X4 back to back thing was just a rumour I'm pretty sure.
 
Seen said:
No, he has the bigger burden. He has to suceeed a brilliant director and two fantastic films. There's a lot of pressure on him, from the studio, fans and critics, to do more than just a satisfactory job but make a film that surpasses the last two installments.

People will be expecting an amazing film, based from the last two which were critically well recieved and financially big hits. No one was expecting anything with Singer's first film, and it exceeded expectations because everyone thought it would fail. And thus the anticipation was already built-in and guaranteed because of the success of the first film in regards with X2.

Plus Ratner has already faced a lot of criticism from certain fans and has to finish a film in a very short time, besides taking over from two other directors and still manage to produce a good movie. It's a whole lot of pressure and burden and if Brett Ratner pulls it off it'll put him in a higher category than Bryan Singer.

I'm not saying Ratner didn't/doesn't have pressure. But Singer was putting his cred on the line when he accepted the job to direct X1. That was when comic book films were still a joke after Batman & Robin. Plus, like you have said, dealing with the lack of budget on a movie that needed big budget. On top of that, along with the writers having to actually decide on the X-Men movie universe(who is in, who is out, spandex, no spandex, etc.). The sequel had tremendous pressure, with the bigger budget means more pressure for success. Along with the fact that X2 had to really prove if X1 was a fluke or was X-Men a franchise.



Seen said:
Do you know that for sure?

I sure on all of them but Angel. Phoenix obviously with the end of X2. Singer said he was wanting Beast in X2 when he hosted a showing of X1 on Cinemax. There is concept art for The Sentinels on the X2 DVD, along with a picture of the Danger Room set being built but not used when they cut that scene out of X2.

Seen said:
Have you seen RED DRAGON? And Avi Arad has said countless times that the filmmakers are going to continue the key emphasis on character and emotion in this film -- it's why the X-Men films have been so popular and successful in the first place.

Yes, I thought he did a good job.:) But he also did Money Talks, and Rush Hours 1 & 2.:O :O I try not to listen to Mr. Arad. Seriously.


Seen said:
Did I say that? If so, then I'm wrong. Of course Singer's films being character-driven isn't bad, but X-Men is a comic-book franchise and it needs big scope and scale.

Something the first film, and to an extent, the second film lacked. Of course there were still good films, but flawed.

So in a franchise you can't build-up to something.
 
Ichi said:
Yes, I thought he did a good job.:) But he also did Money Talks, and Rush Hours 1 & 2.:O :O I try not to listen to Mr. Arad. Seriously.

What were wrong with those movies?? I mean they are nowhere near Oscar nominees but they were fun action flicks. And people obviously liked the Rush Hour films considering they are making yet another one.
 
this will never end i guess. i have been satisfied with everything singer did with x1 and x2. singer and his team could have done way better on some things and storm could have been better, another actress would have had the same lines halle did. maybe if storm was written as a stronger character, it would have worked better, but we'll never know right? its all opinion

x3 has LOTS of pressure on it! and im hoping ratner and friends realize that.

but like i said in another thread, i dont think the likes of ian and patrick would have come back if the script was not up to snuff!
 
RedIsNotBlue said:
What were wrong with those movies?? I mean they are nowhere near Oscar nominees but they were fun action flicks. And people obviously liked the Rush Hour films considering they are making yet another one.

In one word????

Generic.

Just read the Synopsis: http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?userid=99364472616679&searchID=4205779&item_id=4241

You see Chris Tucker acts like this because he's black, but Jackie Chan doesn't get it because he's Chinese. You GET IT!! HAAAA HA HA HAAAAAA!! TIME FOR EXTREME KUNG FU ACTION!! Then because it is Hollywood lay down some rap music, because in Hollywood kung fu pretty much always needs rap music.

Success and sequels being made doesn't mean jack when it comes to quality.(Example: Charlie's Angels, Tomb Raider, Fantastic Four, Cheaper By the Dozen, Daddy Day Care, etc.) If X3 sucks, I could care less if it is a success at the box office and leads to X4.
 
Ichi said:
I'm not saying Ratner didn't/doesn't have pressure. But Singer was putting his cred on the line when he accepted the job to direct X1.

Ratner has a little more than just his credibility on the line directing X3. Fans are far more nitpicky and cautious then they were back in 2000.

That was when comic book films were still a joke after Batman & Robin.

I think BLADE had come out a year later and was relatively successful, so they weren't a complete joke.

Plus, like you have said, dealing with the lack of budget on a movie that needed big budget. On top of that, along with the writers having to actually decide on the X-Men movie universe(who is in, who is out, spandex, no spandex, etc.).

X3's writers, Zak Penn & Simon Kinberg, had to decide who is in, what should the plot be, what sub-plots should occur, what characters need to be developed and how, etc etc. And I'm sure Ratner has the same budget difficulties that Singer had, if not more.

The sequel had tremendous pressure, with the bigger budget means more pressure for success. Along with the fact that X2 had to really prove if X1 was a fluke or was X-Men a franchise.

X2 had great fan anticipation and a successful movie under its belt. In my opinion it was more smooth sailing.

During editing, Singer said he felt more at ease with this movie, meaning he felt more comofortable it was going to be a success than the last one. Of course the production was full of hardships and pains, Singer went in with a lot more creative control than he did with X-MEN.

I sure on all of them but Angel. Phoenix obviously with the end of X2. Singer said he was wanting Beast in X2 when he hosted a showing of X1 on Cinemax. There is concept art for The Sentinels on the X2 DVD, along with a picture of the Danger Room set being built but not used when they cut that scene out of X2.

Yes but Ratner's X3 differs undoubtedly from Singer's proposed X3. It appears Singer's version would have featured the Hellfire Club and Sentinels, where Ratner's version has "the Cure" (deprived from contemporary Astonishing X-Men comics) and other probable elements.

Yes, I thought he did a good job.:) But he also did Money Talks, and Rush Hours 1 & 2.:O :O I try not to listen to Mr. Arad. Seriously.

And Singer did APT PUPIL. At least Ratner's action comedies were entertaining and financially successful.

Also, I think when Arad means he wants to keep the allegorical drama he means it. He knows without it the X-Men franchise wouldn't work, and that has been reiterated by other members of the production subsequently to that.

So in a franchise you can't build-up to something.

You can but it has to go somewhere. You can't just build and build and never go anywhere. Which I felt Singer's films were doing to an extent.
 
Ichi said:
In one word????

Generic.

Just read the Synopsis: http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?userid=99364472616679&searchID=4205779&item_id=4241

You see Chris Tucker acts like this because he's black, but Jackie Chan doesn't get it because he's Chinese. You GET IT!! HAAAA HA HA HAAAAAA!! TIME FOR EXTREME KUNG FU ACTION!! Then because it is Hollywood lay down some rap music, because in Hollywood kung fu pretty much always needs rap music.

Success and sequels being made doesn't mean jack when it comes to quality.(Example: Charlie's Angels, Tomb Raider, Fantastic Four, Cheaper By the Dozen, Daddy Day Care, etc.) If X3 sucks, I could care less if it is a success at the box office and leads to X4.

Hey I am no big fan of the Rush Hour movies but they were watchable, fun, and entertaining. That is all Ratner was trying to accomplish and he did. And it sounds like you just have a problem with rap being movies or having sterotypical humor or something.

And on those other movies you listed they had something that Rush Hour didn't. Starring hot chick(s)...which sadly makes money nowadays. And I haven't seen Cheaper by the Dozen and Daddy Day Care but those are movies made for families and children and I have a feeling that your not in that group to enjoy them.
 
Seen said:
I think BLADE had come out a year later and was relatively successful, so they weren't a complete joke.

But Blade also wasn't really put out there as a "comic book" movie, more of a kung fu/vampire movie. He was a pretty obscure character, who's only real notoriety before that came from a couple episodes of Spider-Man. So they could repackage it and understate the comic book connections to avoid it being lumped in as a "comic book movie". X-Men put it all out there.
 
Okay. This all needs to end. I can't believe I'm going to do this.


This debate centers around three things: Singer vs. Ratner, cinematic characterizations of X-Men, and comic faithfullness. Reading through the pages on pages of stuff, I still stand by what I say. Like the Guard, I do not believe in the convience of saying this is all "just opinion." Opinion is the easy way out, and sometimes opinions need to be contested when they abdicate the neccessary objective variables neccessary to buffer them -- namely, evidence.

We have heard many things, and the first I will start off with is Ratner's teaser. I've heard it described as "epic," 'better", "containing things that Singer would not touch". In 90 seconds, apparently, Ratner has erased nearly four hours worth of X-Men film. However, I think the danger lay in the expectation.

First and foremost, I have not heard anyone describe anything of substnace to this strailer. It's all superficial -- by that I mean image. Storm looks cool. Action looks cool. Explosions look cool. Magneto doing things that look cool. All flash and dazzle -- all spectacle. And isn't this the main concern we had? A less character-oriented X-film. Granted, we do not yet know if this too will be character oriented, but to laud this above Singer's films already without knowing this -- films that have such solid characterizations, is an aggregious logical fallacy and lacks the objective variables neccessary to be an educated opinion. For the most part, Fantastic Four looked cool -- it sucked (yet I own it...sigh).

So, we have this issue of characterization in the X-Men films. We have this issue of Storm and Cyclops in particular. However, I think before we discuss this, we need to explore why Singer made the choices he did and how the environment in which these choices took place.

First and foremost, something that many seem not to grasp is that the X-Men are comic book characters that are translated into film. Why is that amongst the fans of novels, musicals, and other mediums, comic book fans are the only ones who have this near cult-like attachment to faithfullness. The entire concept of adaptation seems lost on them, their own fervor for their preferential interpretation of the comic book apparently overriding decades, if not centuries, worth of dramatic philosophy.

What is that dramatic philosophy? Conflict. First and foremost, films have to be about conflict. In comics, you can have a few issues where the conflict is superficial for the most part (Bad guy wants to kill Lois, Superman must stop, Luthor's behind it -- FIGHT!). However, in films, there is no such waiver. Conflict. Conflict. Conflict. The more conflict, the better. Good Drama = Desire + Danger. A famous scholar once said that.

Desire is not waht you think it is. It's not simply what your a character wants. It's what your character needs -- and there is a huge difference. What your character needs is also what your character wants. A want can be a lover, a book, a golden ring, a boxing victory. Whatever. But this alone is superficial (i.e. Magneto wants to destroy Alcatraz). We must have a reason and this, if extreme and potent enough, delivers to the audience a dramatic need. This is done throuhg adding stakes, tramau, or soem other concept to your character's past or situation that motivates them in a way that is uncontrollable (i.e. Magneto, a Holocoust survivor, wants to destroy Alcatraz because they cured his companion Mystique, want to cure what he sees as his ordained mutation, and he has come to see Alcatraz as the symbol of his oppression). Ahhhh...there we go! We have not only want the character wants, but also what the character needs -- we know he needs it because we as an audience identify with his reasons for wanting it: love, vengence, vindication, anger.

Moving to danger.

Danger is not simply guns pointed at your main character. It's a loss, a trauma that can be a result of the hero failing and producing worse situations. It can also be the maintaince of the status qou. It can be both. (i.e. Matrix -- Neo not only is in danger of failing to break the cyber-reality status qou of the Matrix, but also in danger of losing his life.) And here we have this idea of danger, a threat -- or if you look at it in execution, danger is a disadvantage as well. In order to be in danger, you must be in a sitatuion where the circumstances are disadvantageous. You cannot have the upper-hand. That does not create danger. (i.e. Neo must face the invulnerable, never-been-beaten Agents.) Why is Neo in danger? Because no one's ever defeated the Agents before! This is danger. It's not just guns, it's a threat that puts a disadvantage on our main character. This is key to understanding the X-Men films, because this is a major difference between films in general and comics in general.

So, now we have danger and desire defined, and from thes two we get drama. Magneto, a Holocaust survivor, now angered by the curing and deahth of his companion, wants to destroy Alcatraz, a symbol of oppression. He fears that should he fail, mutants will be obliterated from the face of the planet. He decides to decides to assemble an army and lead them into a military confrontation at Alcatraz that could result in their deaths.

See, what that famous scholar forgot was Drama = Danger + Desire x Decision. Your character must always decide to act upon that desire, or if he chooses not to, the movie must then be about how his lack of decision created a worse situation, which is in and on itself a decision. The degree to that situation will magnfiy the importance of the danger and the desire.

Now, that we've established the backbone of films. THE backbone. We are talking in ways like, "Every singe monumental successful film has adhered to the above" type hyperboles. Yes, this is almost a categorical. Take any Oscar nominated film, take any of your tearjerkers, the movies that resonate and stay with you, take any of them -- they will follow Drama = Danger + Desire x Decision.

As a sidenote, it is important to note that even in ensemble film, either the group themselves must become a character (this is rare and typically not a good idea) or your team must center around a few characters. Take for example, Star Wars, which is an ensemble piece in its own way. It's centered around Luke. Take The West Wing, a famous television ensemble show. Each episdoe (which for our purposes can be seen as one film) centers typically on one character's arch. The Man in the Iron Mask, centers more on D'Argtana and Philippe. Rarely, if ever, will you find an ensemble film that counteracts these points of having a few actors as anchors.

So, now we can analyze the X-Men. Who, out of the the characters, has the type of rich, complex history that would make it perfect of this equation and anchor the ensemble cast, playing off each one in their own way. Also, let us also note that we must have a character that's very history can be used as a template to exposiate the history of the mutant conflict, the history of mutation in general, and the history of the X-Men as an established institution (since it's commonly agreed that an "origin" story would be very tedious).

Cyclops. Not really. He's one of Xavier's first students. Being that the X-men need to already established, this rules him out.

Jean Grey. Same goes for her. One of the first.

Storm. Uh-oh. Here we go. Now, while Storm certainly can relate to the struggle in her African youth of mutation, and is not one of Xavier's first students, she lacks the history to make her an engaging character. Being that she is from Africa, her mutations history is too far removed from the American socio-political struggles with mutation, making her a highly unfavorable canidate as an anchor character. Plus, a key to the ensemble "anchor" is that he/she plays off all the other characters very well, illuminating particular characteristics about them and thus, through the anchor character, others are characterized. Storm cannot do this. She gets along with Jean way to well, respects Xavier, and is respectful and platonically attached to Scott. Remember, the best type of characterization comes in the wake or midsts of conflict. How the character decidse to deal with conflict.

Beast and Angel are far too impractical for the first movie. Thus, on budgetary reasons alone, they must be left out. Plus, again, they lack the conflcitive relationships to make them great introducing characters. Rich, privilaged, and smart.

So, who are we left with, Logan and Rogue. Now, also, take into consideration the mandatory requirement taht your audience demographic relate to the character. T his is also key (as I said, we understand why Magneto wants to destroy humanity cause we can identify with his need for vindication as human beings).

Logan. I mean, come on, like him or hate him (I in fact do not like him), he is perfect for the "rookie" anchor. The "bad boy" loves goody-goody Jean, a girl already engaged. He hates straight-laced Scott, the guy the girl he likes is engaged to. Has no time or mind for Xavier's philosohpical ideals (he's a loner). Doesn't understand Storm's need for a philosophical underpinning to the mutant versus human war ("You're sure your on the right side...").

Also, his history illuminates the mutant debate so vividly. We get ideas of government interference, a key aspect in the comics. We learn about how mutations work, how wonderous they can be (he doesn't age! he heals!). We learn of experimentation, an idea later followed in X2.

However, he also conforms perfectly to the dramatic equation in a way that complements the other characters and the history of mutation. Logan wishes to discover his past to satisfy his need to know who he is. This is a very potent, simple, a basic human struggle that we can all realte to. The need to know who we are. And we play on this, Logan doesn't know who he is because as a mutant, someone exploited Logan and wiped his memory. Egats! That's terrible, says the audience. Gosh! But hold on, that's only his desire. What's the danger? In order to have his past discovered by a mutant telepath Xavier, Logan must join with the X-Men in discovering what neferious scheme Magneto has planned for Logan. Holy ****! Magneto's going to destroy humanity, and Logan factors in and although a longer, he has to work with the X-Men in order for Xavier to help him out. But wait, we also need the decision. A loner and wanting nothing to do with them, Logan must decide whether or not to ally himself with the X-Men in order for him to learn about his past. There you have it. Desire. Danger. Desire. In the end, drama. He's perfect for it.

As is Rogue. Rogue's desire is to be normal. To be able to touch someone. The danger. Here, the danger is that she can't. It's impossible. The struggle and danger here is the mental breakdown if our heroine doesn't realize she needs to accept this and comes to terms with it. We can all sympathize with this need to accept those things we don't like about ourselves. But what's the decision? Well, to embrace her mutation, something she learns to do via Logan and the X-Men. Logan must decide to go with Logan, to join the school, to leave the school after Mystique tricks her, to come back to the school under Logan's guidance (which plays on his character's equation as well), and to stay.

And, they most important thing, Logan and Rogue become ensemble anchors with illuminating character equations with little change to their comic characters. Storm, Cyclops, Jean would all require substantial changes in their characterziations and histories to "jive" with these CINEMATIC dogmas.

PART TWO'S NEXT
 
Ichi said:
But Blade also wasn't really put out there as a "comic book" movie, more of a kung fu/vampire movie. He was a pretty obscure character, who's only real notoriety before that came from a couple episodes of Spider-Man. So they could repackage it and understate the comic book connections to avoid it being lumped in as a "comic book movie". X-Men put it all out there.

yep. Blade didn't even carry the marvel logo with it. x-men was the start of the super-hero/comic book film re-emergance. Without it it's unlikely there'd be many around today(although for some like dd or hulk it wouldn't have been a bad thing)
 
Part TWo I want to touch briefly on X-Men 2 and why Logan's characterization was carried over into that film, as well as Jean's illuminated. But here, we're also going to discuss why Storm was characterized the way she was, treated as she was, and became what she is by the end of X2... but we'll do this within the context of not comics, but movies.

Now, we've alreayd discussed that all ensemble piecse need "anchors", characters that illuminate the themes of the film, have a rich character equation, and also can play off the other ensemble members in such a way as to illuminate them as well. We've seen how Logan fits this perfectly, being that with little change to his comic history, he can easily become a conflicting character that illuminates the dillemas of mutation, the dynamics of the X-Men institution, and the threat of Magneto. Rogue does as well, playing off themes of acceptance of one's self.

Now, as a note, I would also insert that Magneto is also a main character in both X-films on par, if not more, than Logan. But this is obvious.

So, to fast forward a bit, being that an X-Men film, due to its cinematic nature, almost demanded Logan as a anchor character, it would make no sense, and would actually be bad sequel form, to not continue the histories established in X1 in X2. Thus, Logan's history continues, which does put him in a anchor position again, however, again, he illuminates the current threat towards mutations (Stryker) while also illuminating other characters (Jean, Magneto, Xavier, Rogue, Pyro, and Iceman). OF course, in many ways, X2 is more severely a X-MAN TEAM film than X1 was by far. Logan only saves the X-Men ONCE, where as he is saved by Jean three times, Storm twice, Magneto twice, Iceman once, Pyro once. But, more on that later.

Storm's characterization is a great debate. A lot if may due with Singer's direction and Berry's actin, a lot of it actually. But let's discuss this "weak" idea we see. In X1, Storm makes the "I suppose, I'm afraid of them." comment. This is not a weak comment, this is a comment of strength. Unlike Magneto who hides his fear behind philosophies and violence, Storm admits it, and conquers it to serve a higher goal. That's what, within the context of this situation, Storm represents. Citing a particular comic book does no good. In Ultimate X-Men, Storm is a bit more unsure of her role in the world. In X-Treme X-Men, Storm actually branches of from Xavier, feeling that he's being too open with humanity. The entire concept of X-Men rests on fear. The X-Men move to stop Magneto, stop STryker, because they FEAR THE RESULT should they not. With such things as the Mutant Registration Act, and Dark Cerebro, what mutant isn't scared. Did you see Logan's reaction in the bar in X1 when the TV talked about mutants? That was shame and fear. Did you see all their responses in the forest in X2 when Magneto describes what Dark Cerebro could do? As Guard said, Storm fearing humanity -- as does Scott, Jean, and Xavier in their own ways -- is a perfrectly legitimate characterzation. However, once compared to her actions, her fear becomes noble, since Magneto and his fear has lead him down his path. Or like Mystique, who was afraid of to to school, and where her fear lead her. Storm rose above this. For those interested in characterization, this is there in the films.

But Storm didn't land in X1 in the snow. Okay. Yes, this could have been done. Great. But it wasn't. Why? Singer was lassoed by time and budget. Period. Two, he was focused on character -- and yes, he was focused on the characters of his ensemble anchors (Magneto, Logan, and Rogue) more than he was on the others. This is a perfectly valid and acceptable directorial practice. You prioritize. You can't play equal treatment and still make a good film. It'd either be generic or static. This is where the idea of rising above your own personal preferences comes into play. If you want to get mad at Singer, say he didn't use your favorite character, not that he didn't get the X-Men as if your one character was its core.

But in X2, Storm's transformation was amazing. She was a leader, leading the team to obtain Nightcrawler, to travel to Alkali Lake, to invade Alkali Lake, and to defeat Stryker. Um, and she has nothing to do? Please, what more? It borderlines on a Storm movie, if not a Logan movie.

But as someone said, Storm had to be rescued in Cerebro, saved by Jean, blah blah blah. Some have even said that in X1, her total ass-beating by Toad is a sign of weakness. Perhaps, so? But what is in our dramatic premise? Remember our character equations? As I said, sometimes ensemble films, even with anchors, take on a general character in the form of the group. This is the X-Men on Ellis Island in X1.

By this time, we need to see the dangers our heroes face in saving humanity. This is the groups dramatic desire, they need it to survive otherwise escalation will occur and because they are devoted to a dream. The danger is Magneto. However, we can't just have them waltz in and beat Toad and Mystique, this is much to simple and violates our cinematic demand and audience expecation of a type of danger. As also state, danger is also created through obstalces that are disadvantagous to our character or group. This can again be a barrier or simply a skill obstacle. For Storm's fight with toad, the danger exists in that Storm is not as good a hand-to-hand combatant as Toad is. She is one of many scenes in this sequence that shows the overall danger the X-Men face in the Statue of Liberty, and this in turn, when coupled with their dramatic desire, creates drama. When we see them defeated, we get discouraged becuase we have all sorts of personal attachemtns to them. However, when the audience sees them defeated (and alot of this rests on the fact that mass audiences make these movies bank) when they see them defeated, they feel suspense. They don't see them as being weak, they see our heroes as devoted and determined....why? Because they always get back up and kick ass! After your hero's been slapped around and thrown around in danger, it's time for the hero to conquer it. Storm does it. She rises and opens up a hurricane on Toad, displaying that when it comes to mutant powers, she is more masterful than Toad. The character overcomes the danger, which usually puts them at a disadvantage, by asserting their own advantage. Logan, after being defeated by Mystique, does much the same by "sniffing" her out. Also not, that Cyclops and Jean could not beat Toad. Only Storm could -- she saved their asses there as well.

But as numeroulsy noted, Storm is amazing in X2. She conjures several hurriances to cover their escape, single-handedly stops Cerebro from killing all of mankind, and organize the inflitration of Styrker's base. All the while, she deals with these ideas of anger versus fear -- and thus, it's almost noble. Yet, as I said, some say that she was then rescued by Jean and later, by Nightcrawler.

Oh, please. They are a team, they must work as one first off. But for a second, let's adhere to this logic. By this logic, everyone would lose their gripe that Logan is portrayed as a favorite, with his bad-ass, stop-all, save the X-Men style. For...Logan is saved by Iceman in the mansion scene, thus I guess nullfying his taking out the troops. He is saved by Pyro, during the house scene, and then saved by Jean and Storm as they pick them up fast in the X-Jet. He is saved by Storm as she conjures up the tornadoes, and later saved by Jean as she stops the missiles. He is then, soon after, saved by Magneto as he stops the plummeting X-Jet. Later, Magneto saves Logan by stopping Dark Cerebro. Later, in the base, after saving the X-men from drowning, he is saved by Rogue as she crash-lands the jet (oh, I suppose this would nullify Jean's acts in bringing Cyclops back and Storm's stopping of Cerebro) and then, again, he is saved by Jean. However, in comparison, LOGAN ONLY SAVES THE X-MEN WHEN HE CLOSES THE SPILLWAY DOORS. He saves the monce, compared to NINE TIMES they save him.

If, we go by your logic, Jean is the most central character of X2. She is saved by Storm once, Magneto once, and Logan once. However, she saves Logan twice, Magneto once (Cyclops blasting him), saves Cyclops, and saves the entire X-Men at the cost of her life. So, in by this logic we go, we find that Jean is the overused and Singer favorite of X2. But this is just using this logic.

The reason we can go back and forth like this is becasue SInger DID adhere to team dynamics. Everyone's doing something in these films. However, personal preferences and bias make fanboys want more and more and more, all the while ignoring the cinematic realities of SInge'rs choices and the way they were constructed. They want this to be a silver screen comic book, not realizing that such would violate the axioms of films that succeed in the market. It'd alienate mass audiences, fall to bring a franchise, and become at best, a cult classic later picked apart by fanboys mad about what STorm said in Act II.

The last note is on this term epic. It's too loose a word often thrown around by fanboys whenever they want to bring a sophistication to their favorite franchise. Stop it. Epics are not adventures alone. They are something more. Epics are long, teadious, heroic journeys (i.e. Star Wars, Matrix even, and Lord of the Rings). Batman Begins, Spider-Man 1 and 2, X-Men 1 and 2, and even X-Men 3 most likely, will not be epics. Epic does not simply mean big -- that is an improper use of the word.

And, to say Singer's films weren't big is a tad superficial. How does one define big? Well, let's start with the first thing that comes to mind -- a movie is "big" if its events are spectacular and impact a large group of people. Well, in X-Men 1, having all the world leaders mutated would surley cause some big problems. And in X2, well, I'd say killing off an entire section of humanity, or all of humans, would most certainly probably make it into the major events history textbooks in schools, whoever may be writing them.

However, its fanboys fickle use of the word epic that allows them to attempt to critique Singer on these grounds.

So, there you go. My Treatise on Singer's Cinematic Choices in the Construction of the X-Men Films and the Logical Fallacies of Fanboys Born from Biased and Uneducated Perceptions on Source Material.
 
bosef982 said:
Beast and Angel are far too impractical for the first movie. Thus, on budgetary reasons alone, they must be left out. Plus, again, they lack the conflcitive relationships to make them great introducing characters. Rich, privilaged, and smart.


Beast is BLUE. He's a perfect example of a 'not-so-normal' mutant who is trying to be seen as normal. If anything, it was stupid to not have him in them until now.

Angel, as much as I love him, I agree is comic wise rich and privaged. But in the movies, they're introducing a conflict in between him and his father which could prove to be interesting.
 
star_chaser65 said:
Beast is BLUE. He's a perfect example of a 'not-so-normal' mutant who is trying to be seen as normal. If anything, it was stupid to not have him in them until now.

Angel, as much as I love him, I agree is comic wise rich and privaged. But in the movies, they're introducing a conflict in between him and his father which could prove to be interesting.


But acrobats wise and also, CGI would have to be used, as well as make up in the time alloted. In addition, Beast is enormously smart. I think Rogue's child age and cursed power proved more moving.
 
Beast was in the original X-MEN script. So was Angel in a cameo when Wolverine was touring the manor grounds. Beast was the scientist character, who figured out pretty much everything about Magneto's plan. Eventually he was written out due to budget and most of his part was given to Jean Grey. She also replaced Beast as Wolverine's love interest. In the initial draft Wolverine was hitting on Beast.
 
bosef982 said:
Part TWo I want to touch briefly on X-Men 2 and why Logan's characterization was carried over into that film, as well as Jean's illuminated. But here, we're also going to discuss why Storm was characterized the way she was, treated as she was, and became what she is by the end of X2... but we'll do this within the context of not comics, but movies.

Now, we've alreayd discussed that all ensemble piecse need "anchors", characters that illuminate the themes of the film, have a rich character equation, and also can play off the other ensemble members in such a way as to illuminate them as well. We've seen how Logan fits this perfectly, being that with little change to his comic history, he can easily become a conflicting character that illuminates the dillemas of mutation, the dynamics of the X-Men institution, and the threat of Magneto. Rogue does as well, playing off themes of acceptance of one's self.

Now, as a note, I would also insert that Magneto is also a main character in both X-films on par, if not more, than Logan. But this is obvious.

So, to fast forward a bit, being that an X-Men film, due to its cinematic nature, almost demanded Logan as a anchor character, it would make no sense, and would actually be bad sequel form, to not continue the histories established in X1 in X2. Thus, Logan's history continues, which does put him in a anchor position again, however, again, he illuminates the current threat towards mutations (Stryker) while also illuminating other characters (Jean, Magneto, Xavier, Rogue, Pyro, and Iceman). OF course, in many ways, X2 is more severely a X-MAN TEAM film than X1 was by far. Logan only saves the X-Men ONCE, where as he is saved by Jean three times, Storm twice, Magneto twice, Iceman once, Pyro once. But, more on that later.

Storm's characterization is a great debate. A lot if may due with Singer's direction and Berry's actin, a lot of it actually. But let's discuss this "weak" idea we see. In X1, Storm makes the "I suppose, I'm afraid of them." comment. This is not a weak comment, this is a comment of strength. Unlike Magneto who hides his fear behind philosophies and violence, Storm admits it, and conquers it to serve a higher goal. That's what, within the context of this situation, Storm represents. Citing a particular comic book does no good. In Ultimate X-Men, Storm is a bit more unsure of her role in the world. In X-Treme X-Men, Storm actually branches of from Xavier, feeling that he's being too open with humanity. The entire concept of X-Men rests on fear. The X-Men move to stop Magneto, stop STryker, because they FEAR THE RESULT should they not. With such things as the Mutant Registration Act, and Dark Cerebro, what mutant isn't scared. Did you see Logan's reaction in the bar in X1 when the TV talked about mutants? That was shame and fear. Did you see all their responses in the forest in X2 when Magneto describes what Dark Cerebro could do? As Guard said, Storm fearing humanity -- as does Scott, Jean, and Xavier in their own ways -- is a perfrectly legitimate characterzation. However, once compared to her actions, her fear becomes noble, since Magneto and his fear has lead him down his path. Or like Mystique, who was afraid of to to school, and where her fear lead her. Storm rose above this. For those interested in characterization, this is there in the films.

But Storm didn't land in X1 in the snow. Okay. Yes, this could have been done. Great. But it wasn't. Why? Singer was lassoed by time and budget. Period. Two, he was focused on character -- and yes, he was focused on the characters of his ensemble anchors (Magneto, Logan, and Rogue) more than he was on the others. This is a perfectly valid and acceptable directorial practice. You prioritize. You can't play equal treatment and still make a good film. It'd either be generic or static. This is where the idea of rising above your own personal preferences comes into play. If you want to get mad at Singer, say he didn't use your favorite character, not that he didn't get the X-Men as if your one character was its core.

But in X2, Storm's transformation was amazing. She was a leader, leading the team to obtain Nightcrawler, to travel to Alkali Lake, to invade Alkali Lake, and to defeat Stryker. Um, and she has nothing to do? Please, what more? It borderlines on a Storm movie, if not a Logan movie.

But as someone said, Storm had to be rescued in Cerebro, saved by Jean, blah blah blah. Some have even said that in X1, her total ass-beating by Toad is a sign of weakness. Perhaps, so? But what is in our dramatic premise? Remember our character equations? As I said, sometimes ensemble films, even with anchors, take on a general character in the form of the group. This is the X-Men on Ellis Island in X1.

By this time, we need to see the dangers our heroes face in saving humanity. This is the groups dramatic desire, they need it to survive otherwise escalation will occur and because they are devoted to a dream. The danger is Magneto. However, we can't just have them waltz in and beat Toad and Mystique, this is much to simple and violates our cinematic demand and audience expecation of a type of danger. As also state, danger is also created through obstalces that are disadvantagous to our character or group. This can again be a barrier or simply a skill obstacle. For Storm's fight with toad, the danger exists in that Storm is not as good a hand-to-hand combatant as Toad is. She is one of many scenes in this sequence that shows the overall danger the X-Men face in the Statue of Liberty, and this in turn, when coupled with their dramatic desire, creates drama. When we see them defeated, we get discouraged becuase we have all sorts of personal attachemtns to them. However, when the audience sees them defeated (and alot of this rests on the fact that mass audiences make these movies bank) when they see them defeated, they feel suspense. They don't see them as being weak, they see our heroes as devoted and determined....why? Because they always get back up and kick ass! After your hero's been slapped around and thrown around in danger, it's time for the hero to conquer it. Storm does it. She rises and opens up a hurricane on Toad, displaying that when it comes to mutant powers, she is more masterful than Toad. The character overcomes the danger, which usually puts them at a disadvantage, by asserting their own advantage. Logan, after being defeated by Mystique, does much the same by "sniffing" her out. Also not, that Cyclops and Jean could not beat Toad. Only Storm could -- she saved their asses there as well.

But as numeroulsy noted, Storm is amazing in X2. She conjures several hurriances to cover their escape, single-handedly stops Cerebro from killing all of mankind, and organize the inflitration of Styrker's base. All the while, she deals with these ideas of anger versus fear -- and thus, it's almost noble. Yet, as I said, some say that she was then rescued by Jean and later, by Nightcrawler.

Oh, please. They are a team, they must work as one first off. But for a second, let's adhere to this logic. By this logic, everyone would lose their gripe that Logan is portrayed as a favorite, with his bad-ass, stop-all, save the X-Men style. For...Logan is saved by Iceman in the mansion scene, thus I guess nullfying his taking out the troops. He is saved by Pyro, during the house scene, and then saved by Jean and Storm as they pick them up fast in the X-Jet. He is saved by Storm as she conjures up the tornadoes, and later saved by Jean as she stops the missiles. He is then, soon after, saved by Magneto as he stops the plummeting X-Jet. Later, Magneto saves Logan by stopping Dark Cerebro. Later, in the base, after saving the X-men from drowning, he is saved by Rogue as she crash-lands the jet (oh, I suppose this would nullify Jean's acts in bringing Cyclops back and Storm's stopping of Cerebro) and then, again, he is saved by Jean. However, in comparison, LOGAN ONLY SAVES THE X-MEN WHEN HE CLOSES THE SPILLWAY DOORS. He saves the monce, compared to NINE TIMES they save him.

If, we go by your logic, Jean is the most central character of X2. She is saved by Storm once, Magneto once, and Logan once. However, she saves Logan twice, Magneto once (Cyclops blasting him), saves Cyclops, and saves the entire X-Men at the cost of her life. So, in by this logic we go, we find that Jean is the overused and Singer favorite of X2. But this is just using this logic.

The reason we can go back and forth like this is becasue SInger DID adhere to team dynamics. Everyone's doing something in these films. However, personal preferences and bias make fanboys want more and more and more, all the while ignoring the cinematic realities of SInge'rs choices and the way they were constructed. They want this to be a silver screen comic book, not realizing that such would violate the axioms of films that succeed in the market. It'd alienate mass audiences, fall to bring a franchise, and become at best, a cult classic later picked apart by fanboys mad about what STorm said in Act II.

The last note is on this term epic. It's too loose a word often thrown around by fanboys whenever they want to bring a sophistication to their favorite franchise. Stop it. Epics are not adventures alone. They are something more. Epics are long, teadious, heroic journeys (i.e. Star Wars, Matrix even, and Lord of the Rings). Batman Begins, Spider-Man 1 and 2, X-Men 1 and 2, and even X-Men 3 most likely, will not be epics. Epic does not simply mean big -- that is an improper use of the word.

And, to say Singer's films weren't big is a tad superficial. How does one define big? Well, let's start with the first thing that comes to mind -- a movie is "big" if its events are spectacular and impact a large group of people. Well, in X-Men 1, having all the world leaders mutated would surley cause some big problems. And in X2, well, I'd say killing off an entire section of humanity, or all of humans, would most certainly probably make it into the major events history textbooks in schools, whoever may be writing them.

However, its fanboys fickle use of the word epic that allows them to attempt to critique Singer on these grounds.

So, there you go. My Treatise on Singer's Cinematic Choices in the Construction of the X-Men Films and the Logical Fallacies of Fanboys Born from Biased and Uneducated Perceptions on Source Material.

Great posts. I also don't understand the "Storm had nothing to do in X2" argument. Maybe not in X1, but in 2 she had plenty to do. She was the centerpiece of the X-jet dogfight sequence and she practically saved the day in the climax. Plus she had some genuine "character moments" with Nightcrawler.
 
The Guard said:
Beast was in the original X-MEN script. So was Angel in a cameo when Wolverine was touring the manor grounds. Beast was the scientist character, who figured out pretty much everything about Magneto's plan. Eventually he was written out due to budget and most of his part was given to Jean Grey. She also replaced Beast as Wolverine's love interest. In the initial draft Wolverine was hitting on Beast.


Feral-homo-sex. Oh YEAH! :D

And think, Beast has claws and teeth, Logan a healing ability. Oh yeah!
 
Great posts. I also don't understand the "Storm had nothing to do in X2" argument. Maybe not in X1, but in 2 she had plenty to do. She was the centerpiece of the X-jet dogfight sequence and she practically saved the day in the climax. Plus she had some genuine "character moments" with Nightcrawler.

I never got the attitude of "she doesn't do anything". In these ensemble films, where it's hard enough to find everyone screentime, Storm got quite a bit to do. One wonders if what happened to Cyclops in X2 happened so Storm could have more screentime and more of a leadership role.
 
The Guard said:
She also replaced Beast as Wolverine's love interest. In the initial draft Wolverine was hitting on Beast.

Uhh are you for real?
 

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