Singers Vision Of Xmen 3?

[bosef982]

I cannot believe I read the last 5 pages.... who am I kidding, of course I did, what else would I do at work.

To Bosef: I still say Singer = Good director... bad interpreter. Great points about X2 Storm though.

To Guard: Keep guarding your balls

To Skruloos: Xmaniac's example may be off, but his idea is correct. I do agree that it would be difficult to fit certain things into this series, considering what's already been established

To Xmaniac: The Guard keeps forgetting that it's not poor interpretation of the film, but poor re-envisioning of the source material. The movieverse by the Guard's own definition is a different "universe" not an adaptation (like most movies are)... and it probably should be.

To Hotaru: DAMN FINE good Sir! Damn fine indeed. Even though I do agree with the movieverse progression theories about Storms characterization as detailed by Bosef; I wholeheartedly think it should have been handled better from the start. I dont know if this was intentional (considering all of the tension we've heard) but it looks as though X3 will have a good payoff for her portrayal.

But as I've stated, being that X-Men is a film interpretation, a totally different universe, aren't contentions of particular characterizations all matter of taste not in film, but in source material.

Singer nailed alot of characterizations, but a few he left behind b/c there wasno time. Does this even make him a bad interperter? I don't neccessarily think so.

Again, personal taste is a huge influence here that needs to be overcome. I was hoping that my analysis of character would help show why Singer made the choices he did, and not others.

I mean, read Jurrassic Park and then look at the film...does this make Speilberg a bad interpreter? The differences are huge, not only in plot, but some characterizations.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

But as I've stated, being that X-Men is a film interpretation, a totally different universe, aren't contentions of particular characterizations all matter of taste not in film, but in source material.

Singer nailed alot of characterizations, but a few he left behind b/c there wasno time. Does this even make him a bad interperter? I don't neccessarily think so.

Again, personal taste is a huge influence here that needs to be overcome. I was hoping that my analysis of character would help show why Singer made the choices he did, and not others.

I mean, read Jurrassic Park and then look at the film...does this make Speilberg a bad interpreter? The differences are huge, not only in plot, but some characterizations.

I would completely agree except that we have come to learn that he really isnt that responsible for the progression that we have seen... Much of what was done in X2 for that character hasnt been clearly established as being Singers ideas. And If what I read about his idea for X3 was correct; Then he still didnt truly establish/portray/reflect a hearty version of the original Orroro Munroe....nor did he plan to. So how does your arguement of "time constraints" hold up across...

(as Woodsy Owl wood say) "one, a two, a three... A Three Movies!"?

 

[bosef982]

I would completely agree except that we have come to learn that he really isnt that responsible for the progression that we have seen... Much of what was done in X2 for that character hasnt been clearly established as being Singers ideas. And If what I read about his idea for X3 was correct; Then he still didnt truly establish/portray/reflect a hearty version of the original Orroro Munroe....nor did he plan to. So how does your arguement of "time constraints" hold up across...

(as Woodsy Owl wood say) "one, a two, a three... A Three Movies!"?

True, but his intentions with X3 of Storm have been linked to his fear that Halle Berry would not return and not wanting to get stuck in that situation. He was writing her out because between bad set chemstiry and public remarks, she was -- for all intents and purposes -- done with X3. Then,well, she made some horrible movie and had to come back to save her career.

But, by that time, Singer had left and she began stating that she'd come back to X3 if she had more to do, citing that she had nothing to do in the previous films. Funny thing is, her entire argument rests on a false premise: that storm had nothing to do in X2.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

I'm trying to decide if I really want to get back into this "discussion"...some of you guys are off-base but I'm feeling lazy today.

 

[Hugh'sMrs]

very true.. no one knows what happen to cyclops between the ages of 14-17... ive heard a rumor that some people think he actually sold his body. this would explain for his inhability to get close to anyone and the cause of his failed mariage with jean as well as the fling hes had on going with emma. Not to mention the cause of his sterness

I think Scott prostituting himself when he lived on the streets is just in fan fic.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

True, but his intentions with X3 of Storm have been linked to his fear that Halle Berry would not return and not wanting to get stuck in that situation. He was writing her out because between bad set chemstiry and public remarks, she was -- for all intents and purposes -- done with X3. Then,well, she made some horrible movie and had to come back to save her career.

But, by that time, Singer had left and she began stating that she'd come back to X3 if she had more to do, citing that she had nothing to do in the previous films. Funny thing is, her entire argument rests on a false premise: that storm had nothing to do in X2.

Alright, you may be right. And since I cannot prove his true intentions on the subject(or the intentions of others), I will give him (and your arguement) the benefit of the doubt. But for these same reasons (lack of concrete evidence of thought and intention) I think you should consider the possibility that he simple "blew" that one.

The guy is still a "heck" of a director, if for no other reason than the fact that he nailed the aspects(tone, themes) he was attempting to convey. And with this Superman project, I do believe I'm starting to see a real sense of "signature" from Mr Singer. This guy likes story...real story, not the run of the mill crap you can see any day and fall asleep on. So he has my attention, cause if there's one thing I like more than just about everything else... it's a great story.

 

[Hugh'sMrs]

Update (sort of)
Singer wasn't the only one who had problems withg FOX. Writer David Hayter said the following in a recent interview....

Source: http://www.metalgearsolid.org/featurez/interviews/davidhayter.php

Hayter had filed a lawsuit against Fox. I thought that was common knowledge.

 

[weapon-x]

But as I've stated, being that X-Men is a film interpretation, a totally different universe, aren't contentions of particular characterizations all matter of taste not in film, but in source material.

yeah. to quote myself from a different thread, it's about time people seperate the comics and the films. People should think of the film as a re-imaging or re-working. Things aren't going to be exact as they are in the comic. in fact i think it's more interesting that way.

 

[Retroman]

Hayter had filed a lawsuit against Fox. I thought that was common knowledge.

Really? I didn't know that.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

yeah. to quote myself from a different thread, it's about time people seperate the comics and the films. People should think of the film as a re-imaging or re-working. Things aren't going to be exact as they are in the comic. in fact i think it's more interesting that way.

And to quote myself from many, many threads...

Storm's re-imagining or re-working in X1 was RE-HORRIFIC!

Who you blame is up to you.

 

[GeneralRashMan]

I was afraid that Bryan Singer would make Spider-Man gay when he did athat movie. Im glad he didnt though

 

[GeneralRashMan]

I was afraid that Bryan Singer would make Spider-Man gay when he did athat movie. Im glad he didnt though

 

[boywonder13]

I was afraid that Bryan Singer would make Spider-Man gay when he did athat movie. Im glad he didnt though

What the heck??? Sam Raimi did Spider-Man.

What are you saying?

Confused!!

 

[weapon-x]

And to quote myself from many, many threads...

Storm's re-imagining or re-working in X1 was RE-HORRIFIC!

Who you blame is up to you.

wasn't blaming anyone or justifying anything

 

[plasticfangs]

Storm being bad is because...HALLE BARRY SUCKS.

The fact is, she has no respect for the medium, and phoned in her performance. She didn't bother trying to make the character believable, or interesting. And that accent was terrible.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

Sorry, I wasnt trying to imply that you did. I just wanted to use the whole "re-horrific" thing
*laughs at self*


Welcome to the X-boards Weapon-X... enjoy

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, there are going to be changes from the comics, but the characters still have to make sense in a clear way.

With Magneto, you can see immediately and clearly why he is what he is. Same with Rogue. And Wolverine. Also Mystique was given a strong motivation ('it's because of people like you that i was afraid to go to school') - that's why she does what she does, that's why she is siding with Magneto.

In my view, as I said above, the driving forces behind Storm, Cyclops and Jean were not as clear. They were not given origin scenes --- of course there was no room to give everyone origin scenes in X1.. it's a shame we could not have had another origin scene in X2 (either Cyclops or Storm... Cyclops' origin would have shown the background of an orphan finding all the things he missed as a child - a family with the X-Men, a father in Xavier and finding love with Jean, which would then have made the loss of Jean even more poignant for him).

This is not just about comparing movie characters with comics (Mystique, Rogue, Magneto, and others all differ vastly). Fanboys want the characters to be almost exactly like the comics. I do not fall into that category.

Storm's portrayal seemed a little fuzzy - she became a caring mother figure and teacher who was the only adult to openly admit a fear for normal humans, a fear which had grown into anger in X2. Her accent hinted at a background that was never explained. We can never expect her to be the Amazonian, aloof goddess in the comics. But she just seemed vague.

I've tried before to justify all her actions and dialogue, for own benefit as much as anyone else's, to try to force it all to make sense.

So. Here is what we have so far from her, some of this taken from earlier things I've said on here:

1. In X1 - she tells Wolverine 'at least I've chosen a side' in the 'war' (between mutants and humans) Magneto has predicted. She has chosen to fight against Magneto's anti-human stance and to fight for Xavier's dream of peace and co-existence. We have from her a definite statement that she is fighting for the side that protects humanity and wants to integrate peacefully.

2. She tells Senator Kelly she is afraid of normal people. It seems natural enough for a group of very different people - misfits, some with obvious physical differences - to feel that way though only she is heard to say that she is afraid. So she fears normal people, but is still fighting for them.

3. She fights Toad after he kicks the living shyt out of her, there is no mention or obvious sign of her comicbook claustrophobia. Is she simply enraged, is she at last actually fighting for the side she has chosen, is she stopping Toad so the X-Men can get on with stopping Magneto and his war?

4. At the start of X2 she is in the museum telling the children that it's now believed the more advanced Cro-Magnon man interbred with Neantherdal man and that there was no war with one wiping out the other. This has to be an allegory for the mutant/human struggle, and as such it backs up her quest for peace and integration. Previously it was believed that the more advanced Cro Magnon (just as mutants are the more advanced) had killed off the less advanced Neanderthal (as normal humans are to mutants). So the analogy is saying 'we shouldn't kill off humans, we should live with them, don't fight Magneto's cause'. Which backs up her decision of which side to fight with, which cause to follow.

5. In X2, we have her telling Nightcrawler she and Jean teach at a school for 'people like us' where they can be safe 'from everyone else'. That backs up her own personal fear - it's the second time she mentions fear, why is she so afraid, more so than Jean or Cyclops or Xavier?

6. Nightcrawler tells her he pities normal people who have not experienced the things they have, and she says she gave up on pity a long time ago. Why? Is this self-pity? Or does she mean she feels no pity for those who hate mutants? What happened to maker her give up that pity?

7. And when he says someone so beautiful should not be so angry, she says 'Sometimes anger is all we have'. This could refer to her calling on rage to bring the fury of the elements, as she did with Toad in X1. She shows no real anger since that statement. Nothing happens in which she obviously acts upon anger.

I don't want to over-analyse, but when you follow through the dialogue like this, there are things that do not immediately add up.

 

[Angry Sentinel]

^ So your really uncomfortable with the "Fuzzy" characterization. I see... And I think this is due in large part to the fact that the movieverse never planned to use Storm as much more than a perepherial character. As Bosef just posted, they either had to write her out because they were not sure of future installments... or they were chosing to write her out because they could not come to an agreement on portrayal.

I was going to make this arguement with Bosef as well, but there is still a lot of conjecture here. A lot of what we are discussing is just our own interpretations of what has been said. Although there is no arguing that there are two completely different characters on screen between X1 and X2. Is this growth? Or actress demands?

What the heck??? Sam Raimi did Spider-Man.

What are you saying?

Confused!!

Yeah, apparently someone thinks they need to ruin a perfectly good forum discussion.

 

[weapon-x]

Sorry, I wasnt trying to imply that you did. I just wanted to use the whole "re-horrific" thing
*laughs at self*


Welcome to the X-boards Weapon-X... enjoy

ha.fair. just got a little defensive. and yeah. hale berry did mess up storm. totally the wrong choice.

 

[X-Maniac]

^ So your really uncomfortable with the "Fuzzy" characterization. I see... And I think this is due in large part to the fact that the movieverse never planned to use Storm as much more than a perepherial character. As Bosef just posted, they either had to write her out because they were not sure of future installments... or they were chosing to write her out because they could not come to an agreement on portrayal.

I was going to make this arguement with Bosef as well, but there is still a lot of conjecture here. A lot of what we are discussing is just our own interpretations of what has been said. Although there is not argueing that there are two completely different characters on screen between X1 and X2. Is this growth? Or actress demands? .

Difficult to know how much is down to actress demands and studio politics! Maybe some of the inconsistencies are down to having to 'toughen up' the character in X2. But they should still have taken a linear progression from X1, we needn't have seen character growth through events, but through dialogue.

I wonder why they wanted Storm to be so peripheral. Movies do try for ethnic minority representation, and Storm is the obvious choice for a black character in X-Men. It's just the dialogue that seemed not to give a clear sense of motivation, though I should add that Cyclops and Jean also did not have clear motivation. I don't want to seem hyper-critical, I am just pondering and reflecting.

 

[bosef982]

I was afraid that Bryan Singer would make Spider-Man gay when he did athat movie. Im glad he didnt though

Will you shut the **** up? Your passive homophobic jabs at Singer's sexuality, and other gay men/women on these boards, is trolling.


Stop it. Now!

 

[Hotaru]

Bosef, I'll stop now. Apparently my English isn't good enough as you still fail to get my point.
Just tell me, in the movie-verse Storm was apparently hurt by humans, that's why she's angry and fearful of them. Now tell me - what's the difference between her and Mystique? Why is one of them fighting for Xavier, while the other's on Magneto's side? They're both angry and fearful. Please, explain. Mind you, I'm an idiot as you claimed me to be, so use straightforward arguments, so I can understand them.
One more thing - I was never bashing Singer for his work on X1 and X2. I was aknowledging some room for improvement.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Bosef, I'll stop now. Apparently my English isn't good enough as you still fail to get my point.
Just tell me, in the movie-verse Storm was apparently hurt by humans, that's why she's angry and fearful of them. Now tell me - what's the difference between her and Mystique? Why is one of them fighting for Xavier, while the other's on Magneto's side? They're both angry and fearful. Please, explain. Mind you, I'm an idiot as you claimed me to be, so use straightforward arguments, so I can understand them.
One more thing - I was never bashing Singer for his work on X1 and X2. I was aknowledging some room for improvement.

Since you are not from America, I don't know if you are familiar with the Civil Rights movement from the 1960's here in the U.S.

The X-Men (Xavier & Magneto) has been compared time and time again to a comic book version of the Civil Rights movement, with Xavier and Magneto being Martin Luther King, Jr, and Malcolm X respectively.

Now, I am no Civil Rights expert, seeing as though I am only 22 years old, and a white male. Of course I've learned about it in school and such, but there is no way that I can know as much about it as the black people who actually lived through the oppression.

But basically, Martin Luther King, Jr, fought for equality between whites and blacks (minorities of all races, really, but blacks specifically). He believed that we could achieve that goal not through violence, but through non-violent protest and civil disobidience (civil disobidience being black people eating in restaraunts that were "white only", and not leaving when asked to leave. Peacefully resisting arrest, i.e. body going limp and making police drag you off)

Malcolm X was a bit more radical. He was not afraid of violence against the oppressors, as he was more of the "fight fire with fire" attitude, that if the white man was going to oppress the blacks, that they were justified in fighting back.

That would be the difference between Storm being abused and fighting for Xavier, and Mystique being abused and fighting for Magneto. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr, had the same goals. They wanted the oppresive laws abolished, and blacks given the same rights as whites. However, they both had different ideals on how to go about getting those goals accomplished.

 

[conan69]

"Malcolm X was a bit more radical. He was not afraid of violence against the oppressors, as he was more of the "fight fire with fire" attitude, that if the white man was going to oppress the blacks, that they were justified in fighting back."

Until he got away from elijah muhammad. His philosphy had radically changed after leaving the Nation of Islam. They killed him when he really was on the verge of great things.

 

[Hotaru]

That would be the difference between Storm being abused and fighting for Xavier, and Mystique being abused and fighting for Magneto. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr, had the same goals. They wanted the oppresive laws abolished, and blacks given the same rights as whites. However, they both had different ideals on how to go about getting those goals accomplished.

Thank you! I have heard of this comparison, but not in such detail.
The goal of the question was to make him see, that as far as we know Storm and Mystique shared very similar (if not identical) past, and they have very similar (if not identical) feelings of fear towards humans. However, one of them stands by Xavier, the other by Magneto. And movies will give NO explanation of why it is so.
Isn't there something wrong, when we can't really tell the difference between a good and a bad guy, apart from that one of them is good and one of them is bad? What made them choose who they chose? An argument that they have chosed who fits them most is no argument, as one might as why did that person fit her the most? And so on, and so on...
They have made Storm different form the comic-books, but somewhere in between they've lost her reason for being with Xavier. As I hadn't known the books I could very well see Storm fighting on Magneto's side.