So let's talk about Mask of the Phantasm...

Discussion in 'Batman World' started by Brain Damage, Aug 13, 2011.

  1. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    you pretty much repeated what i said godzilla

    well to be fair a large majority of the batman cartoons from back in the day were stand alone pieces, so i assume this story was the same.

    the only time it really became relevant was when it came round to terry's origin. I guess they thought they didn't want to beat people over the head with it.

    at least it was mentioned, none of the other dcau films could potentially be in continuity, not even the superman/batman crossover.
     
    #26
  2. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,844
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's just frustrating when that they went to all the effort to make a film about Bruce's past, and never bring it up again.
     
    #27
  3. EliteF50

    EliteF50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    4,176
    Likes Received:
    0
    MOTP is easily the best Batman movie ever made, imo.
     
    #28
  4. Mister Meddle

    Mister Meddle The Barber of Seville

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,385
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think Batman Beyond Return of the Joker is the best animated film. Mask of the Phantasm comes in second place.
     
    #29
  5. Godzilla2014

    Godzilla2014 Deadpan Snarker

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    6,844
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyone notice that both of these highly-acclaimed DCAU Batman films have plots based on the return of something from Bruce's past to Gotham and flashbacks to said period in time? Furthermore the flashbacks bookend Bruce Wayne's career as Batman, Mask Of The Phantasm's flashbacks show the beginning of Bruce Wayne's tenure behind the mantle of the Bat, while Return Of The Joker's flashbacks show the beginning of the end.
     
    #30
  6. Fudgie

    Fudgie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,197
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like Under the Red Hood and Return of the Joker more than Phantasm.
     
    #31
  7. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wished terry's fight with the joker lasted longer.

    but i loved the idea of bruce trying to make terry fight tim/joker his normal way and terry decided to go streetwise on him. Terry nailing the joker in the nuts is great.

    i love return of the joker but it had some weaker parts to it. But for nostalgia sake, the episode of dissapearing inque in batman beyond was epic, seeing bruce in the costume again and the motp them going full blaze with an electric guitar

     
    #32
  8. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    you know the only mistake I think the entire paul dini show made

    I think in epilogue would have been better IF the dna fusion had not had worked on terry but had worked on his younger brother, since his he was about the same age when his father died to when bruce's parents died. So they tried it with terry and the phantasm refused

    so in a sense, terry's relationship would stop his younger brother from having that vengeful batman side to him, and also if his brother became the new robin and would ultimately become the heir to the batman throne.

    so bruce and terry would still have some relation

    it would have also made images like this more touching in retrospect, and seeing mat (who has the superhero alliteration in his name already)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    plus is would have been a lil less obvious and would all let us know what happened to matt in the end.
     
    #33
  9. I Am The Knight

    I Am The Knight Infinity

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Messages:
    20,981
    Likes Received:
    23
    Agreed. When she left, he realized he had nothing left. The idea of a normal life was gone for him. Well, there was Alfred, but that is a different type of relationship.

    Yeah, but Bruce tried to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel in TDK, too.

    Right, but it's uncertain what would've become of Bruce had Rachel never dropped him off at Falcone's. Nolan's Bruce needed to be spoonfed a lot of moral codes and dilemmas to get into the mindset of becoming Batman. He was directionless, and I'm not sure that he would've gone on any journey around the world without Rachel and Falcone.

    And again in TDK, he was willing to give up on being Batman to be with Rachel. In MOTP, I believe he wanted to financially help the police to make up for not being Batman, and in TDK he wanted to um...Well Dent was on the scene so apparently everyting would be fine now :woot:
     
    #34
  10. akfj

    akfj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are you referring to the episode "Epilogue", the DCAU, or B:TAS? He didn't write "Epilogue", and he wrote quite a few episodes in the DCAU, but Bruce Timm, Alan Burnett, and later Dwayne McDuffie deserve creit, too. Sorry, it just seems that he tends to get more credit for the DCAU as opposed to others like Alan Burnett and Dwayne McDuffie.
     
    #35
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  11. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    it wouldn't have added that much to the narrative to be fair, unless they decided to bring the phantasm back to the fold.

    i quite liked the fact bruce never saw her again, some characters i feel are just not meant to reoccur.

    unlike kyodia-ken, he definitely should have featured more, i thought he was aweome.
     
    #36
  12. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    semantic mistake, but you know what i mean.

    i wasn't trying to steal credit, but using the dcau would have been more accurate.

    and yeah, epilogue.
     
    #37
  13. akfj

    akfj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,199
    Likes Received:
    0
  14. ChrisBaleBatman

    ChrisBaleBatman Legendary Hero

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2005
    Messages:
    19,677
    Likes Received:
    0
    I loved "Epilogue".

    Even though it's a freaky...****ed up thing that happened. Mr. McGinnis firing off Wayne rockets and not knowing it.

    ...so ****ing weird.
     
    #39
  15. Blitzkrieg Bop

    Blitzkrieg Bop Fight Owens Fight

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,287
    Likes Received:
    4
    Andrea Beaumont is the best Batman love interest, ever.
     
    #40
  16. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,263
    Likes Received:
    0

    Not too happy about that either. I think BB was a good promise but a so-so execution. Rachel was part of the latter.



    But when 1) he was already Batman for a long while and 2) when he thought harvey could do a better job than Batman. Bruce thought Batman was not going to be necessary anymore.
     
    #41
  17. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    damn straight, it makes catwoman seem...balanced and like a small crush, and talia seem like an escort,

    there's an episode where bruce is looking at old love interests and her picture isn't part of the list, that grates me but i just guess her pic is too painful to look at and he doesn't have any in the house.
     
    #42
  18. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    i agree with the rachel part, i somewhat really didn't like this.

    with regards to andrea, i think it really humanised bruce, alot of people would say that his ration to take an event that traumatised him as a child and to run with it is verging on insanity. his interaction with andrea and his ability to love and almost heal makes him human. plus it makes his descent into batman a dual-event mixed with a long investment steady fall of the mind body and soul, followed by a complete collaspe of the heart.

    which is why the scene of the birth of batman is that bit more potent.

    infact, till then he had been unable to strike fear into people, and simply putting on a costume wouldn't have done it, he needed that transaction and inteaction with andrea to sell it.

    and the beautiful thing is that andrea is pretty much the same except for in this situation, she's proactive while bruce is reactive. BUT it's because of this, she can kill and he can't.
     
    #43
  19. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    :up:

    Meh. Bruce's trauma is what makes him Batman, not some failed relationship. What humanizes Bruce is the fact that he is human.

    I really hate this notion that a broken heart made Batman.

    The scene was potent (and one of the few that i really liked as much as some of the movies) because of the music and atmosphere.

    I don't feel it more potent if I think that Bruce was probably misty-eyed and holding his sobbing back because Andrea had left him.

    And now Bruce needs a broken heart to know what fear is? Really, hate that concept.

    It's an interesting parallel. But if we have to add the romantic angle in the Batman origin formula, then no thanks.
     
    #44
  20. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    well if anything was going to stop bruce becoming batman it was going to be finding some sort of happiness and in honesty, most of that is in finding true love.

    I think a key point of it that i haven't brought up is that bruce understood love could have stopped him being batman, which is a key element because he tries to use that notion to stop andrea killing the joker at the end of phantasm and she is too far gone to understand.

    as for the fear aspect, there's a reason the masking of batman is played directly after he finds out that beaumont has done a runner.

    to be fair, i don't think andrea does too much to divert batman off his path, she is just a fork in the road that he doesn't end up taking but it's nice to know the fork was still there.

    and bruce is shown to be anything but human for a large part of the dcau (if you take into account his bruce wayne persona in his youth was an act). the closest other thing he's come to showing is fear when fighting against kyoado-ken (sp?) and rage when tim is being tortured in return of the joker.

    infact, isn't the reason that dick left him was because of his apparent inhumanity

    don't get me wrong, most romances in superhero stories are completly convoluted but because there are hugh parallels between the characters and she's there at a pivotal time in his life and never shows up again, i think it works. unlike rachel who basically tells him to be batman and is a final reward for stopping being batman, boooo hiss....
     
    #45
  21. Fenrir

    Fenrir Devourer Of Gods

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,889
    Likes Received:
    0
    Batman: You still listen to your dad's orders?
    Andrea: The way I see it, the only one in this room being controlled by his parents is you.

    Ouch.
     
    #46
  22. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Everything Under the Sun

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    That line was always a favorite. Selina Kyle eat your heart out.
     
    #47
  23. Two-Face

    Two-Face Harvey Dent

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    48,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    One of the best Batman films I don't know why I don't own MOTP on DVD. :o
     
    #48
  24. El Payaso

    El Payaso Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2005
    Messages:
    15,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, nothing HAS to stop Bruce from becoming Batman (a different thing is to be stopped after he becomes Batman).

    And then, true love (as in a romance) is just a cliche. One that doesn't belong to Batman's origin. Other than Bruce's love for their aprents and vice versa.

    Bruce understanding that killing is not the solution, because is what triggered the whole thing, is what he should have used to stop Andrea from killing. Bruce understoof that in BR (a franchise where he didn't have the no killing policy), BF (where he discourages Dick Grayson from killing) and of course Nolan's movies. A girl had nothing to do with it.

    Bruce defining partially his Batman mission in true love is like having Jonathan Kent being killed in order to make Clark undertstand he should use his powers to fight crime. It's possible and it might work, but it doesn't belong there.

    The reason couldn't be any more wrong though.

    Fear comes from the vision of the bat, that makes Bruce understand that criminals are superstitious.

    No, it was nice to know Bruce's obsession comes from where it has always come: to bring justice to this world.

    I measure Andrea's interference because of the results: Bruce wanted to quit his Batman mission before starting. I'd say that's enouygh diversion.

    It's not nice to know everything depended on a girl.

    Which is worse: Andrea didn't even do much, as you say. It's Bruce himself (!) who felt a girl was enough to stop him.

    And how is that a problem for the character? Bruce Wayne is supposed to be absorbed by his obsession. That's why he becomes Batman. As I told you, after some years of actually being and experimenting being Batman, then he can realize of his lack of humanity. But before?

    A girl telling Bruce to become Batman is as bad as a girl stopping him of being Batman. Girls come and go, but Bruce is stronger than that.
     
    #49
  25. November Rain

    November Rain Single Mother

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2005
    Messages:
    13,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    that would have even shut up justice lord batman.
     
    #50

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"