Homecoming Spider-Man Homecoming (2017) General Discussion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 102

[Flint Marko]

Depends on said representation of Peter Parker, given that the character has been around and has been changed for 55 years. There's preferred versions, sure, but there's really no true definitive take.

Thank you so much. I'm going to keep this in handy next time I see you taking part in the daily tantrums about CW/Homecoming.

 

[MbJ]

I was literally about to say the same thing.

 

[EmperorCommodus]

I would love it if they just put in Norman Osborn, but didn't tell us who was playing him beforehand, so audiences would be shocked if they got a huge actor for the role, but you had to really look hard to see them on newspapers or something.
I don't want to see the Goblin if they (STILL) aren't willing to give him his real costume, but Norman Osborn by himself is still a hugely interesting figure.

 

[SpideyJJ]

I would love it if they just put in Norman Osborn, but didn't tell us who was playing him beforehand, so audiences would be shocked if they got a huge actor for the role, but you had to really look hard to see them on newspapers or something.
I don't want to see the Goblin if they (STILL) aren't willing to give him his real costume, but Norman Osborn by himself is still a hugely interesting figure.

That'd be pretty cool. And with how much the general public seems to be losing interest in GG, getting a well known top tier actor to portray him would bring excitement and interest to the new version (imagine a scene where Peter is at the Bugle and Jonah is chewing him out because he didn't get any pictures of "that menace Spider-Man teaming up with the Vulture", and since Peter is desperate for cash JJ assigns him to take pictures of the upcoming Norman Osborn press conference, and they show a newspaper article about OsCorp announcing a new weaponry partnership with the army with a smiling Leonardo Dicaprio shaking hands with General Ross. Unlikely, but it would be pretty awesome)

Also, who remembers that rumor last year that Matthew McConaughey was approached for the role after that interview where he said he'd read scripts for both Marvel and DC but wasn't sure whether he was ready to commit to a franchise just yet? How would people feel about him?

 

[EmperorCommodus]

Also, who remembers that rumor last year that Matthew McConaughey was approached for the role after that interview where he said he'd read scripts for both Marvel and DC but wasn't sure whether he was ready to commit to a franchise just yet? How would people feel about him?

McConaughey would be an inspired casting choice! With his looks and confidence, you could totally see this guy as a captain of industry out in the public eye putting himself in front of the cameras. I could really imagine him mastering both Norman's public and private facade - it would be a real treat to see him delivering some of those rambling monologues Osborn excels at

For myself, I always wondered what Tom Hanks could do with the role. He's so quintessentially All-American, but has so rarely played a villain that I have the strangest feeling he could do an amazing job. Though, at this stage, the guy is probably far too old.

 

[SuperSanchez]

McConaughey would be an inspired casting choice! With his looks and confidence, you could totally see this guy as a captain of industry out in the public eye putting himself in front of the cameras. I could really imagine him mastering both Norman's public and private facade - it would be a real treat to see him delivering some of those rambling monologues Osborn excels at

For myself, I always wondered what Tom Hanks could do with the role. He's so quintessentially All-American, but has so rarely played a villain that I have the strangest feeling he could do an amazing job. Though, at this stage, the guy is probably far too old.

I wouldn't be able to take his accent seriously if he played Norman.

 

[SuperSanchez]

Was it just me, or in the mid credit scene for Doctor Strange, at the start I thought it was going to be the Tinkerer because you could see the guy welding something but couldn't see his face. I was very disappointed when it turned out to be the guy in the movie

 

[Dark Raven]

Why would the Tinkerer be in Dr Strange of all movies? I never thought it was him. He would be an extremely random choice. I would be disappointed if it were him.

 

[harryoscop]

Thank you so much. I'm going to keep this in handy next time I see you taking part in the daily tantrums about CW/Homecoming.

Kinda hypocritical considering you've consistently tried to shut down these so-called "tantrums" with the same argument.

 

[Flint Marko]

Kinda hypocritical considering you've consistently tried to shut down these so-called "tantrums" with the same argument.

I'm criticizing Peter being portrayed as an unlikable tool and an awful, wishy-washy boyfriend who keeps breaking up with his girlfriend because he broke a promise he made to her dead father. So much more reasonable than "omg MY Spider-man doesn't want to be in teh Avengers!!1! Uncle Ben never existed!!!"

Incorrect. While Peter didn't officially attend due to Stacy's dying wish (keeping away from Gwen) and the fact that he indirectly caused his death, he was there.

It says in this scene that he didn't attend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjg1094w5P8

So please explain how he was there? I haven't seen the movie in a minute so I honestly might have missed something.

Merely teased it, and probably wouldn't have even pursued her again if it wasn't for Aunt May's little pick-me-up once he broke up with her. Afterwards, he was continuously guilt-ridden over it and conflicted all throughout the second film.

Which makes him a tool.

Incorrect on Peter breaking up with her, it was the other way around as clearly stated by Gwen.

No, I am correct. He kept breaking up with her, as directly stated by Gwen. That's why she ended things at the beginning of ASM 2. Are we supposed to be rooting for him defying the wishes of this girls dead father? Are we supposed to like him for stringing her along?

 

[harryoscop]

I'm criticizing Peter being portrayed as an unlikable tool and an awful, wishy-washy boyfriend who keeps breaking up with his girlfriend because he broke a promise he made to her dead father. So much more reasonable than "omg MY Spider-man doesn't want to be in teh Avengers!!1! Uncle Ben never existed!!!"

Yeah... No. And I'm criticizing MCU for being portrayed as a wide-eyed little kid who acts like he's still in 2nd grade. My complaints about him go beyond him being obsessed with The Avengers. It isn't anymore ridiculous than your argument of Peter being a tool because he broke a promise that he felt guilty for breaking (which is in line with his character) and being with the woman he loves. MCU Spidey is more of a tool than Garfield ever was.

 

[Repulsor Blast]

Yeah... No. And I'm criticizing MCU for being portrayed as a wide-eyed little kid who acts like he's still in 2nd grade. My complaints about him go beyond him being obsessed with The Avengers. It isn't anymore ridiculous than your argument of Peter being a tool because he broke a promise that he felt guilty for breaking (which is in line with his character) and being with the woman he loves. MCU Spidey is more of a tool than Garfield ever was.

lulwut.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yeah... No. My complaints about him go beyond him being obsessed with The Avengers. It isn't anymore ridiculous than your argument of Peter being a tool because he broke a promise that he felt guilty for breaking (which is in line with his character) and being with the woman he loves. MCU Spidey is more of a tool than Garfield ever was.

Breaking a promise he made to a girl's dead father and then stringing her along by continually breaking up with her is in line with Peter Parker's character? Please point me to the Spider-man comics you've been reading. This is, by any objective standard, more reprehensible behavior than saying "awesome" a few times or whatever petty reasons you have for disliking MCU Peter.

 

[EmperorCommodus]

To be fair, Spider-Man, even in his adulthood, has always been a bit naive and immature. Sometimes to his detriment, and sometimes to show his idealistic side - like how he looks up to Captain America or is thrilled to have Iron Man take him under his wing. It lets people take advantage of him, but it also allows him to try and see the good in the world.

 

[Dark Raven]

At the end of the day, all characters are just tools in Marvel's tool box.

 

[harryoscop]

Breaking a promise he made to a girl's dead father and then stringing her along by continually breaking up with her is in line with Peter Parker's character?

I'm not a fan of how he broke the promise to Captain Stacy but I'll easily take that over Spiron-Kid fanboy. Yes, it is. He's continually breaking up with her BECAUSE he feels like trash for breaking a promise to his girlfriend's father. Guilt is a huge part of Peter's character, is it not? He has made mistakes in the comics countless times and seeked redemption.

Please point me to the Spider-man comics you've been reading. This is, by any objective standard, more reprehensible behavior than saying "awesome" a few times or whatever petty reasons you have for disliking MCU Peter.

Please point me to a Spider-Man comic where he acts like a wet puppy obsessed over Uncle Tony and the Avengers, oblivious to everything going on around him, simple-minded and acting like an annoying caricature?

 

[The Joker]

Kinda hypocritical considering you've consistently tried to shut down these so-called "tantrums" with the same argument.

You're in no position to be calling anyone hypocritical when you chastise others for doing this; http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=34455539&postcount=554

When you do that daily here to the extreme. So much so you piss people off so badly you're driving them away from this thread with your repetitive stupid whining over nothing.

lulwut.

Ignore it. It's just one of his nonsensical rantings.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'm not a fan of how he broke the promise to Captain Stacy but I'll easily take that over Spiron-Kid fanboy. Yes, it is. He's continually breaking up with her BECAUSE he feels like trash for breaking a promise to his girlfriend's father. Guilt is a huge part of Peter's character, is it not? He has made mistakes in the comics countless times and seeked redemption.

You'll take Peter breaking a promise he made to a dead man and then playing around with his daughter's heart over Peter admiring Tony Stark? Thank you, that is truly amazing and shows exactly how ridiculous your issues with Homecoming are

Please point me to a Spider-Man comic where he acts like a wet puppy obsessed over Uncle Tony and the Avengers, oblivious to everything going on around him, simple-minded and acting like an annoying caricature?

I asked you first. Please point me to a Spider-man comic where he breaks a promise he made to a girl's dead father and then toys with her for months.

Everything you just named is not only petty nonsense based on your pre-conceived notions of what your preferred version of Peter should be, but, again, objectively way less reprehensible than what Garfield's Peter did. It's not even a debate.

Feel free to turn this around and say that me disliking Peter's treatment of Gwen is based on my own pre-conceived notions, but that's based on my conceived notion of Peter not being an unlikable, inconsiderate tool, which is immeasurably more reasonable than any complaint you have brought to the table.

 

[harryoscop]

To be fair, Spider-Man, even in his adulthood, has always been a bit naive and immature. Sometimes to his detriment, and sometimes to show his idealistic side - like how he looks up to Captain America or is thrilled to have Iron Man take him under his wing. It lets people take advantage of him, but it also allows him to try and see the good in the world.

He's naive in a good, responsible way, though. Like you said, he tries to see the good in people. Even his enemies (Otto, Rhino, Dillion etc) He's not naive in the sense that he'd do anything Tony Stark says without question because he idolizes him. If this was comic Spidey, he would've got on that airport and tried to break up the fight. He would've tried to make Cap & Stark see how messed up it is that they had to come to blows. CW was more focused on impressing Uncle Tony so he'd let him be an Avenger as opposed to caring about what was happening.

 

[SuperSanchez]

Why does everyone hate Harryoscop so much?

 

[PeterBenParker]

It says in this scene that he didn't attend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjg1094w5P8

So please explain how he was there? I haven't seen the movie in a minute so I honestly might have missed something.

He watched from a building/clocktower, I believe it was. It was right in the funeral scene before you see Gwen at Peter's doorstep. He watched on and as Gwen looked up and around, Peter ducked down to not be noticed. So, he did -- assumingly -- see everything of the funeral, he just didn't officially attend.

Which makes him a tool.

No, it makes him a conflicted, average teenager with a conscience. What would be a "tool" situation if he continued dating her without any shred of thought for Captain Stacy which isn't what we got.

No, I am correct. He kept breaking up with her, as directly stated by Gwen.

"You have done this again and again, Peter. I can't live like this. I break up with you. I break up with you." That is what Gwen directly states. All that's inferred by him doing "this" repeatedly is being conflicted about being with her and respecting a promise he made. It's clearly her that has had to officially end things.

Are we supposed to be rooting for him defying the wishes of this girls dead father?

As I said:

Anyway, both of them were in the wrong. Neither were particularly right in their relationship. Peter wanted her but guilt (even literal guilt) would get in the way. Gwen wanted him but his on-and-off demeanor was pushing her away. Even trying to be friends, they couldn't resist each other and it ultimately ended with Peter's fears being realized.

She even says during that break up scene that it's not her father's choice on whether or not they should be together. Both had their sides to make. Gwen wanted them together because they love each other and she believes that's enough despite the risks. Peter wants to be with her but he's so guilty over Cpt. Stacy that it's hard for him to even look at her without feeling like he could put her in danger like it did him.

Are we supposed to like him for stringing her along?

Isn't that what Peter Parker has done since he's had girlfriends? Promises them something and can't make it because of his double life? Wants to date someone but can't because something-something secret identity? I'm pretty sure Debra Whitman was someone that waited for Peter then gave up on him after giving him chances.

Isn't that the entire basis of Spider-Man 2 where Peter doesn't want to be with Mary Jane due to risks, she moves on, he tries to get her back, fails, she misses him over John Jameson, they tease getting together officially but it's unsuccessful only for MJ to arrive at his doorstep in her wedding dress?

Guilt and being 'wishy washy' is very much a key trait of Peter. That's one of the things that makes him so relatable to anyone, among all the other things that makes this character so great.

 

[Flint Marko]

Why does everyone hate Harryoscop so much?

"Hate" is a strong word. The guy used to be a good poster but has become so blinded by his unreasonable distaste for MCU Peter that he has made every effort to say the most ridiculous, unfounded nonsense he can. Here's just a small taste of what he's been saying:

- "Spider-man wanting to join the Avengers is a slap in the face to Ben's legacy"
- "Uncle Ben doesn't exist"
- “Tony is going to take Uncle Ben’s place”
- “Spider-man is more obsessed with being an Avenger than saving lives”
- "Avi Arad cared about the fans"
- "Peter isn't independent anymore"
- "Spider-man in the comics never wanted to be an Avenger"
- "This version of Peter isn't especially intelligent"
- "A 15-year old inventing web-shooters and web-fluid that catch the eye of Tony Stark isn't really a big deal"
- "Peter acting like a star-struck kid around the Avengers is unrealistic"

 

[EmperorCommodus]

He's naive in a good, responsible way, though. Like you said, he tries to see the good in people. Even his enemies (Otto, Rhino, Dillion etc) He's not naive in the sense that he'd do anything Tony Stark says without question because he idolizes him. If this was comic Spidey, he would've got on that airport and tried to break up the fight. He would've tried to make Cap & Stark see how messed up it is that they had to come to blows. CW was more focused on impressing Uncle Tony so he'd let him be an Avenger as opposed to caring about what was happening.

Narratively speaking, you're right. Tony Stark is a guy who has helped save the world, he's hobnobbed with super soldiers and a literal God, it doesn't make sense for his character to turn to a wet-behind-the-ears teenager to help him fight his battles. It was mostly for the audience's sake.

When you look at Tony's downward spiral, starting in Iron Man 2, by that stage in his character development, it would have made more sense if - as in the comics - he actually turned to a villain and set them loose on Cap and the others.

But, as you say, a well-written Spider-Man (Who wasn't the one we got in the comic Civil War or One More Day) wouldn't necessarily be such a pawn. Peter is super paranoid about his secret identity, and, in general, his autonomy as an individual actor.

 

[The Joker]

I'm not a fan of how he broke the promise to Captain Stacy but I'll easily take that over Spiron-Kid fanboy. Yes, it is. He's continually breaking up with her BECAUSE he feels like trash for breaking a promise to his girlfriend's father. Guilt is a huge part of Peter's character, is it not?

Excusing that rubbish characterization because guilt is part of Peter's character is nonsensical and invalid. Would you be ok with Peter murdering someone just because he felt guilt about it afterward? It's what he is feeling guilty about that makes all the difference, not the fact he's feeling guilty.

Peter would never in a million years make a promise to a dying man, then break it five minutes later, and smile and say it's the best kind of promise to break. Furthermore he wouldn't constantly emotionally jerk someone he supposedly loves around by getting back together and breaking up with them all the time. That is an a-hole thing to do and he knows he's hurting her but he keeps doing it because he can't get his s**t together over a promise he keeps breaking over and over, and hurting someone over and over in the process.

That is a worse and more drastic change than anything Tom and Tobey had.

He has made mistakes in the comics countless times and seeked redemption.

So it would be ok if he murdered someone and was feeling bad about it afterward? That would be ok in your book to turn him into a murderer as long as he feels bad afterward because it follows the BS logic of making a mistake and seeking redemption after.

Please point me to a Spider-Man comic where he acts like a wet puppy obsessed over Uncle Tony and the Avengers, oblivious to everything going on around him, simple-minded and acting like an annoying caricature?

Please point me to a comic where Peter's parents are more important to him than Uncle Ben. Please point me to a comic where Spider-Man is the center of the universe for Electro. Please point me to a comic where Norman Osborn was never the Green Goblin, Harry was the first Goblin, and he killed Gwen Stacy. Please point me to the comic where Peter is so dumb at Science that he needs to look up doofuses on YouTube and be reminded by his gf about the basic principles of an 8th grade Science experiment. Please point me to a comic where Harry Osborn formed the Sinister Six. Please point me to a comic where the Lizard's story arc didn't feature his wife and child etc etc.

 

[SuperSanchez]

"Hate" is a strong word. The guy used to be a good poster but has become so blinded by his unreasonable distaste for MCU Peter that he has made every effort to say the most ridiculous, unfounded nonsense he can. Here's just a small taste of what he's been saying:

- "Spider-man wanting to join the Avengers is a slap in the face to Ben's legacy"
- "Uncle Ben doesn't exist"
- “Tony is going to take Uncle Ben’s place”
- “Spider-man is more obsessed with being an Avenger than saving lives”
- "Avi Arad cared about the fans"
- "Peter isn't independent anymore"
- "Spider-man in the comics never wanted to be an Avenger"
- "This version of Peter isn't especially intelligent"
- "A 15-year old inventing web-shooters and web-fluid that catch the eye of Tony Stark isn't really a big deal"
- "Peter acting like a star-struck kid around the Avengers is unrealistic"

I agree with a couple of his points, but the rest of them.... wtf has he been smoking?