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Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 56

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Captain Marvel and Ant Man and the Wasp were a really unfortunate dip in the quality of Phase 3... not a major one, but an unfortunate one.

I actually like both Carol and Hope as characters. But the movies were weak points. Makes me sad. :(

My main issue with CM was how homogenised, unoriginal and rote it all was. Nothing was surprising. Nothing was gripping. Nothing was new. It was an expertly crafted piece of superhero cinema that was an enjoyable way to waste a couple of hours, but I’m forgetting what happened already. I know the MCU is one glorious whole, but there should still be room for some experimentation and new thinking. This had none of that.
 
Wait, what? Not even the scoopers were prepared for this.

Captain Marvel and Ant Man and the Wasp were a really unfortunate dip in the quality of Phase 3... not a major one, but an unfortunate one.

I actually like both Carol and Hope as characters. But the movies were weak points. Makes me sad. :(
Interesting coincidence that they also happen to be their only female-led movies. :ninja:
 
Official Poster. Love seeing Cap all front and center like this, one last time.

endgame-poster-new.jpg
 
I’m LOVING these surprise trailers. First Aladdin now Avengers!
 
@Mjolnir Reborn Not going to break down an entire film because that would take way too long and would be an entire thesis worth of reading. Instead spoiler tagged bellow is a scene from Glass objectively broken down.

So to start off the second act of Glass, two of the main characters (David Dunn and Kevin Wendell Crumb) are taken to a mental institution and kept under high security by Dr. Ellie Staple.

David’s cell meanwhile is made of steel and is equipped with 46 high powered nozzles that will spray David with water if he tries to escape. David’s commitment to the mental institution raises an important question, why is he here? As far as the greater world is known, “The Overseer” is nothing more than a vigilante, which is not necessarily grounds for being locked up into a mental asylum. The penalty for vigilantism is that of the crime you commit. Based on what is presented in the film, all of David's crimes are that of a misdemeanor, which if proven guilty of is no more than a year of jail. The reason we are given for why Kevin and David are both in the mental ward is because they think they have super powers. Now based on the way many of Kevin’s identities speak about the Beast quite often and taking into account that Kevin does have an actual mental disorder, it is logical he’d be taken to a mental facility. David on the other hand, not so much. He makes no such proclamations at any point leading up to this. At this point of the film all he hasn't spoken at all. When he does eventually speak it is to plead to be released so he can continue his vigilantism. Per the information we are currently given it makes no logical sense for him to be here, thus creating a plot hole. By definition a plot hole is a measure of bad writing as it is an error in the plot. But is this an actual plot hole? No. The film eventually explains that there is a secret organization Dr. Staple works for that is bankrolling this whole imprisonment and were directly targeting David. This explanation fills in the hole resulting in a scene that is no longer poorly written. This portion of the scene would be considered good writing.

There is more to this scene though. As it progresses we learn that David's cell has water pipes installed. Why? Dr. Staple states that it's because water is David’s weakness. Why does Dr. Staple believe David thinks water is his weakness? She says it’s because she saw him choke up water after a fire hydrant exploded, but that’s not enough to assume water is his kryptonite. All people react to being suffocated to water the same way. To choke up water would be a natural. That was the point of it being his weakness in Unbreakable, it was something he latched onto to help believe he was normal like most people. Why is your first assumption that it’s his kryptonite? That’s really convenient. It's not bad writing as it doesn't contradict anything, but one could argue it is weak writing. Even if there was solid reasoning for her to think that, why are they still there? Her whole plan is to convince him that he isn’t a superhero. Why are you then trapping him in a room that would release that said weakness on him if he tried to escape? This would only reinforce his belief of being a superhero. This is choice is inconsistent with Dr. Staple's character and motivations, making it a plot hole. Are there ways to fill this plot hole? Yes. As stated being hosed with water is something that would affect all people the same. By omitting the knowledge that she knows it's his weakness, you fill this hole of why she chose it and instead it would be convenience. The film doesn't present it as such though so instead this error is present throughout.

So now we have two examples of writing, the question remains of how do we weigh them. Well, we're talking about plot and plot holes, so the question becomes how much do these plot holes affect the plot? Which is more important to the overall plot? David being imprisoned is the inciting event of the film, if he is here for no reason then the rest of the plot's foundation is bad. Leaving the water pipe incident as is affects the logics of Dr. Staple's plan, but it does not change any of the film's following events. She still manages to convince David he might not be a superhero anyway, so this detail is inconsequential. If you were to tally it up, the good writing would outweigh the bad writing. Put this scene on a scale it would lean more towards the good side.

This is an objective standard using only the definition of a plot hole. You can apply this to the rest of the film as well as others. If we can't agree that this is a standard one can use, then any further discussion becomes pointless as we'd be stonewalled.

You don't have to break down an entire film yourself, but you did say outright that you can objectively measure a film's quality. Just show me the measurements of one and link me a source where it's said how that's done. Measuring something means that you quantify it in standard units.

If you could objectively measure films we would already have all the measurements to look up. We wouldn't have the subjective top lists around the web, we'd have a definitive list of which films are the best because they have the highest measurements. That's the obvious state if the quality of films are objectively measured. It would work just like any scientific field.

Your spoiler text says nothing that objectively determines the quality of the film, or even objectively establishes the "well made" thing you've derailed the discussion with. You seem to have trouble differing established facts from what conclusions you can draw from them.
 
Official trailer, out of nowhere. Nice.


Really nice trailer and it's wonderful that they keep building up excitement mainly based on what has been and still isn't showing us anything relevant of Endgame itself. It's going to be such a great experience going into a film like this and actually don't know anything what's going to happen.
 
About the poster. I know the whole orange and purple /blue is the hot thing right now but this one works really well. Love CM on there. Only issue is that Thor seems to be like "okay all of you look that way, I am going to look the other way"
 
I’m surprised to Okoye on there. Wonder if that’s indicative of her role in the film. I haven’t been keeping up with the production, so I don’t know if she’s been rumored to play any significant part.
 
Damn. That was one cool trailer. Really can’t wait to see how this pans out.

@Mjolnir Reborn if you’re going to insist that anything I said was subjective in the spoiler tag than we simply are not going to agree on this subject and thus there is no reason to continue clog up this forum.
 
Loved that they still aren't showing anything past the first part of the movie except maybe them with the new suits.
 
@Mjolnir Reborn if you’re going to insist that anything I said was subjective in the spoiler tag than we simply are not going to agree on this subject and thus there is no reason to continue clog up this forum.

I said that while you can describe what happened in the script factually it doesn't mean that you can draw any sort of conclusion from it and it will be objective. Again, the discussion is about whether you can determine a film's quality objectively. A big problem with misinformation in general is people treating facts in an improper way.

But you just show that you can't since you continue to refuse to even acknowledge your own statement about objectively measure films, let alone show any example of it. What you put in the spoiler isn't a measurement in any way whatsoever, as explained when I described to what a measurement is.

We don't even have a universal rule for what the purpose of a film is.
 
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Read it again. I said that while you can describe what happened in the script factually it doesn't mean that you can draw any sort of conclusion from it and it will be objective. Again, the discussion is about whether you can determine a film's quality objectively.
If a script factually has errors in it, then it is factually of lesser quality. How is that not objective? My personal feelings are not present in the discussion and my statements can be proven through references, as I provided.

You continually say I don't have an example of an objective measurement. You haven't proven why my example isn't objective, only simply saying it isn't. Osmium isn't the densest material on Earth because of what was used to measured its density, it's the densest material because it abides by dense's definition. If I look at a script and find a plot hole, using the definition of a plot hole, I would find an error in the script. If I find multiple of these errors, the quality of the script lowers. This is objective and you can conclude that the script is poorly written.
 
If a script factually has errors in it, then it is factually of lesser quality. How is that not objective? My personal feelings are not present in the discussion and my statements can be proven through references, as I provided.

You continually say I don't have an example of an objective measurement. You haven't proven why my example isn't objective, only simply saying it isn't. Osmium isn't the densest material on Earth because of what was used to measured its density, it's the densest material because it abides by dense's definition. If I look at a script and find a plot hole, using the definition of a plot hole, I would find an error in the script. If I find multiple of these errors, the quality of the script lowers. This is objective and you can conclude that the script is poorly written.

First of all you're targeting in on one specific detail, instead of what the discussion is about (a film's quality overall). If it's a proper objective measurement, exactly how does a plot hole affect the film's quality? If you can objectively measure it you can describe it numerically, so please do so for once and stop ignoring what I say.

Even within just writing it's not even remotely close enough to say that there's a plot hole, so therefor the script's quality is lowered. If the quality of a script is objective you must be able to say exactly what the level of quality of the script is and how much that was lost due to the plot hole. Everyone must also agree with you if you've calculated it properly since objectivity leaves no room for opinion.

Your argument is basically the same as that I say that Captain America's suit is mostly blue, which is a fact and therefor I can objectively measure how good Infinity War is. Taking one thing that's a fact and then treating it improperly.

Edit: As a side note, it actually does depend on the method used on whether Osmium or Iridium is the densest material (which is why I elaborated on which observation method I used). That's why we establish universal rules for what is the basic units, basic conditions for observation, etc, in science. Everyone knows about and adheres to those rules, which is how objective facts are treated.
 
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My main issue with CM was how homogenised, unoriginal and rote it all was. Nothing was surprising. Nothing was gripping. Nothing was new. It was an expertly crafted piece of superhero cinema that was an enjoyable way to waste a couple of hours, but I’m forgetting what happened already. I know the MCU is one glorious whole, but there should still be room for some experimentation and new thinking. This had none of that.

I more or less agree, and think it was the result of their primary mistake: making it a "mystery". Nothing much could be surprising, because being a prequel almost all the mysteries were transparent. . . and nothing much could be gripping, because the requirement to be a mystery forced the obfuscation of character. The one thing every movie *must* do is make you connect with the characters, on an empathic level. Almost any structural flaw can be counteracted by sufficient connection and feeling for the characters. . . but in this case, the structural flaws actively hindered just that connection.

you think they'll change directors for the captain marvel sequel?

I really hope so. I'd say at least 75% of the flaws with the movie were the result of inadequate directorial skill. Even a lot of the script-level problems could have been fixed with defter directing.
 
Wait, what? Not even the scoopers were prepared for this.

Interesting coincidence that they also happen to be their only female-led movies. :ninja:

Honestly, I don't understand the Ant-Man and the Wasp hate. In that, both the plot and acting worked fine, with clearly dramatized characters, stakes, clever complications that arose from the themes of the movie, and all that. I think some people just don't like movies having personal stakes, rather than "fate of the world" stakes.
 
Honestly, I don't understand the Ant-Man and the Wasp hate. In that, both the plot and acting worked fine, with clearly dramatized characters, stakes, clever complications that arose from the themes of the movie, and all that. I think some people just don't like movies having personal stakes, rather than "fate of the world" stakes.

Seriously. AMATW was one of the most fun movies Marvel has put out. I love that they are willing to do a superhero film that's more of a comedy than anything else. Yet it still has great action, special effects, and a lot of heart to it. I found the first Ant-Man kinda weak but I loved the sequel. Lilly was badass, Rudd was hilarious and I loved the new additions like Michelle Pfeiffer and Randall Park. Can't wait for the next installment in the series.
 
Seriously. AMATW was one of the most fun movies Marvel has put out. I love that they are willing to do a superhero film that's more of a comedy than anything else. Yet it still has great action, special effects, and a lot of heart to it. I found the first Ant-Man kinda weak but I loved the sequel. Lilly was badass, Rudd was hilarious and I loved the new additions like Michelle Pfeiffer and Randall Park. Can't wait for the next installment in the series.

For me, my favorite thing was that the antagonists of the movie were *not* evil villains, but flawed people with goals and motives almost as sympathetic as the heroes. It contributed a lot to the drama, because you didn't want Scott and company to lose, but you also kind of didn't want Ghost and company to lose, either.
 
For me, my favorite thing was that the antagonists of the movie were *not* evil villains, but flawed people with goals and motives almost as sympathetic as the heroes. It contributed a lot to the drama, because you didn't want Scott and company to lose, but you also kind of didn't want Ghost and company to lose, either.

Yeah, I liked that a lot too. I'm looking forward to seeing more of Ghost and Foster; they were really good characters. Hannah John-Kamen in particular did a great job of portraying someone who is (literally) being torn apart.
 
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