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Superman & Lois Superman & Lois Original Discussion Thread

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Lois knows Clark Kent and knows she doesn't want to have sex with him. If Lois wanted to be having sex with Clark, she would be. But she's not.

So Clark watches her and hangs out with her all day pretending to be her friend, then creates an entirely different persona (one who also stalks and spies on her) and has sex with her without telling her he's Clark.

I can't believe someone is defending a Superman who tricks his friend into having sex with him, gets her pregnant, leaves the planet without telling her, then comes back and stalks and spies on her.

AND there you go again twisting the narrative when the conversation isn’t going your way. We were discussing if it was rape which it wasn’t. No matter how you spin it it’s not rape thats fact.

And to counter point everything you said above. In the Donnerverse Superman is the real person and Clark is the disguise. He didn’t truck her into having sex at all, she wanted to and consented to sex with Superman. I can’t really put it in plainer English than that.
 
AND there you go again twisting the narrative when the conversation isn’t going your way. We were discussing if it was rape which it wasn’t. No matter how you spin it it’s not rape thats fact.

And to counter point everything you said above. In the Donnerverse Superman is the real person and Clark is the disguise. He didn’t truck her into having sex at all, she wanted to and consented to sex with Superman. I can’t really put it in plainer English than that.
Tricking someone into having sex with someone she wouldn't otherwise have sex with is rape.
 
Tricking someone into having sex with someone she wouldn't otherwise have sex with is rape.

He doesn't trick her tough.

This really is pointless, you really are deluded that you don't take any counter arguments on board whatsoever. You keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring facts.
 
He doesn't trick her tough.

This really is pointless, you really are deluded that you don't take any counter arguments on board whatsoever. You keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring facts.
What fact?

The fact that a guy who pretends to be friends with his coworker uses an alternate persona to have sex with her without telling her who he is, knocks her up, ditches her, then comes back five years later and uses super powers to stalk and spy on her?
 
What fact?

The fact that a guy who pretends to be friends with his coworker uses an alternate persona to have sex with her without telling her who he is, knocks her up, ditches her, then comes back five years later and uses super powers to stalk and spy on her?

The fact that she F'n sleeps with exactly who she consents to sleeping with. Honestly do I have to keep spelling it out for you?

As I said before spying on her is creepy yes but it doesn't make him a F'n rapist.

Honestly you are the moist deluded person I've ever come across in a conversation like this. You ignore simple facts because you have these idiotic hatred towards things. I'm done with this conversation for good.
 
The fact that she F'n sleeps with exactly who she consents to sleeping with. Honestly do I have to keep spelling it out for you?

As I said before spying on her is creepy yes but it doesn't make him a F'n rapist.

Honestly you are the moist deluded person I've ever come across in a conversation like this. You ignore simple facts because you have these idiotic hatred towards things. I'm done with this conversation for good.
Petty insults and repeated nonsense won't get you anywhere. This isn't the first time you've been "done" or "ignoring me", either.

You're the one that seems to have a problem understanding consent.

Superman and Clark are the same person.

It's a huge issue that Lois knows Clark as a friend and coworker, and chooses not to engage in a romantic or sexual relationship with him. Clark choosing to maintain that facade while at the same time engaging in a sexual relationship with Lois while disguising himself and presenting himself as an entirely different person is utterly disgusting.
 
Consent must be informed.

Ask yourself:
-Would you be okay with a close friend and coworker that you see on a daily basis using a super powered alter ego to have sex with you in secret while manipulating you with a fake nice guy act?

I think we have to allow that Lois and Supes are in a highly unusual - and actually fantastical - relationship. So it might be tricky to apply conventional modes of ethics. Moreover, if you subscribe to the notion that “Superman” is the real persona, then Superman is being his real self when he’s with Lois.

In any case… In the classic mythos, Lois always suspects that Superman has a secret identity (usually Clark). So if Lois agreed to have sex with Supes, she must have done so knowing he couldn’t be fully honest with her. IOW, she was fully informed.
 
I think we have to allow that Lois and Supes are in a highly unusual - and actually fantastical - relationship. So it might be tricky to apply conventional modes of ethics. Moreover, if you subscribe to the notion that “Superman” is the real persona, then Superman is being his real self when he’s with Lois.

In any case… In the classic mythos, Lois always suspects that Superman has a secret identity (usually Clark). So if Lois agreed to have sex with Supes, she must have done so knowing he couldn’t be fully honest with her. IOW, she was fully informed.

Lois knew he had to have SOME identity when she agreed to have sex with him, sure.

But not that he was actually someone she considers a platonic friend and coworker. Someone she has a certain level of trust in.

And as for "fantastical ethics"... isn't one of the main thrusts of most good Superman stories precisely that Superman CANNOT reserve for himself some special set of morals and ethics, and that he must be held to the same standard as everyone else?

Clark in his role as a friend is abusing Lois's trust by presenting himself as a different person and having sex with her.
 
So Clark watches her and hangs out with her all day pretending to be her friend, then creates an entirely different persona (one who also stalks and spies on her) and has sex with her without telling her he's Clark.

I can't believe someone is defending a Superman who tricks his friend into having sex with him, gets her pregnant, leaves the planet without telling her, then comes back and stalks and spies on her.

WTF? What kind of cut of Superman The Movie / Superman II / Superman Returns did you watch?

In STM, "Superman" was never created so he could have sex with Lois. He was created with the help of his Kal-El's father so he could help humanity. Kal-El became Superman. Then Kal-El created the Clark Kent persona to sort of blend in with humans. Then he met Lois and they had sex in SII with him sharing all his secrets with her. If you wanna criticize the mind wipe at the end, have at it. That is an extremely problematic concept which they justified with "they can't be together / Superman knows better". However this notion that Kal-El or Clark Kent created Superman to have sex with Lois is just wrong.

The Superman-Lois-Clark Kent dynamic has always been a little weird and you can argue that keeping the CK facade with Lois is wrong, but in the Donner films, Superman is the real person. If she was having sex with mild mannered Clark, then that would be super weird. But she falls in love with the real guy and that's who she has sex with.

And yes the stalking is creepy.

Technically, Supes only became a stalker well after he had relations with Lois. :word:

Oh dear :o
 
WTF? What kind of cut of Superman The Movie / Superman II / Superman Returns did you watch?

In STM, "Superman" was never created so he could have sex with Lois. He was created with the help of his Kal-El's father so he could help humanity. Kal-El became Superman. Then Kal-El created the Clark Kent persona to sort of blend in with humans. Then he met Lois and they had sex in SII with him sharing all his secrets with her. If you wanna criticize the mind wipe at the end, have at it. That is an extremely problematic concept which they justified with "they can't be together / Superman knows better". However this notion that Kal-El or Clark Kent created Superman to have sex with Lois is just wrong.

The Superman-Lois-Clark Kent dynamic has always been a little weird and you can argue that keeping the CK facade with Lois is wrong, but in the Donner films, Superman is the real person. If she was having sex with mild mannered Clark, then that would be super weird. But she falls in love with the real guy and that's who she has sex with.

And yes the stalking is creepy.

Spot on
 
So do you think they'll give Clark a new suit for the series? I mean how current suit isn't all that bad, but I think something new is due. Whatever they change they make, if any, just give me the yellow S.
 
So do you think they'll give Clark a new suit for the series? I mean how current suit isn't all that bad, but I think something new is due. Whatever they change they make, if any, just give me the yellow S.

If I think it's time, even if it retains the essence of its design, you should make some tweaks to improve it, such as the S of some brighter material like the S of kingdom come. And the yellow S in the layer I want it!
 
If I think it's time, even if it retains the essence of its design, you should make some tweaks to improve it, such as the S of some brighter material like the S of kingdom come. And the yellow S in the layer I want it!

Yeah I'd like some brighter colors too. No more of this subdued ****.
 
Yeah I'd like some brighter colors too. No more of this subdued ****.

I always felt his suit looked battle worn like he’d had it a long time. It would be nice to get a brighter looking update. I hope they keep the \S/ design.
 
Tyler's suit must be upgraded for the spinoff show.

I wonder if Tyler's Superman is going to reveal his identity to the world like they're currently doing in the comics.
 
What fact?

The fact that a guy who pretends to be friends with his coworker uses an alternate persona to have sex with her without telling her who he is, knocks her up, ditches her, then comes back five years later and uses super powers to stalk and spy on her?
Not necessarily appropriate, but he didn't pretend to be someone he's not. He's the Superman persona. She wanted to be with that persona. He didn't force her into it, he didn't pretend to be someone he wasn't as a whole. He didn't tell her he was also Clark. If you don't take SMII into account for it, but I do. I think this follows that continuity of him telling her. I look at it as her memories not being completely erased, but the parts about his identity.

Either way, he's not lying about being Superman. He's Superman.
You really don't see it as creepy and wrong to be friends and coworkers with someone, watch and talk to them all day every day, and then also have a secret sexual relationship with her under the identity of someone she doesn't know is you?

It's pretty much exactly like the Revenge of the Nerds Halloween costume rape.

I can't recall any other continuity where Superman and Lois have a sexual relationship without Lois knowing Superman is Clark.
In ROTN he dresses up like her boyfriend and she thinks she sleeps with him. That's not what happens in this case. Superman's not pretending to be someone else.
 
wonder if Tyler's Superman is going to reveal his identity to the world like they're currently doing in the comics.
I don't believe it in Elseworlds, I tell Kara that there was nothing more important to protect her family and now that she has a child it would make even less sense, maybe later or if something happened to force her ...
 
You could make the argument that the secret identity itself is “creepy and wrong”, and that a number of Superman’s traditional actions and methods are immoral.

Yes, the Clark Kent/Superman/Lois Lane dynamic is messed up. That’s precisely why it has been a staple of their fictional relationship for so long. Because it is messed up, and it makes for good soap opera style drama and conflict as a result.

Like the writers of many comics, the writers of SUPERMAN RETURNS weren’t unaware of this, they were relying on it on putting their own twist on it. They wanted to show some of his “human” flaws in context…in this case, carrying a torch when he should have been moving on. Superman isn’t supposed to be presented as perfect in SUPERMAN RETURNS. Far from it.

That said…

Sexual consent is not consent because neither party has any secrets from each other and neither person has told each other any lies. Consent is consent because both parties consent to a specific act in question, and are reasonably capable of doing so. There is not really a "Oh, but if I only knew this about them, maybe I wouldn't have had sex with them" element to sexual consent.

I don’t know that “Informed consent” means what famicommander has implied it means. It doesn’t mean that you get to know everything about someone before you sleep with them, or that the other person has no secrets from you, or that they have never lied to you. It means that you understand what you’re doing in a very specific context (a sexual act), and are in control of your physical actions. Which Lois very much is and was, based on the information we have. There’s no element of “hidden personality traits not being revealed” that reverses consent, it is not reliant on someone using a certain name, or even that they use their real name. These are dishonesties to be sure, and potentially deceptions, but they are not related to consent itself when it comes to sex.

famicommander talks about the Revenge of the Nerds thing, but Superman wasn’t a completely different person posing as someone else. He was himself being himself. Given the portrayal, you can make the argument that he was more authentically himself as Superman than he was as Clark, though there's a gray area there.

You can argue about whether Clark hiding part of himself from Lois is morally right, but you could argue that about Clark’s relationship with EVERYONE, whether there was sex involved or not. Clark hiding things from Lois doesn't make a sexual act she chooses to engage in nonconsensual.

Trying to paint what happens as Clark Kent creepily stalking Lois and tricking her into sex is disengenous at best. Context matters. There’s a wealth of storytelling that makes it clear that getting women into bed is NOT the point of the Clark Kent identity. Nor is the point of the Clark Kent identity to “hang around and pretend to be Lois Lane’s friend”. There’s a far more important context to the “disguise”that that.

This isn't remotely a scenario where he is pretending to be friends with Lois to get into her pants, I.E the traditional "Nice Guy" trope. They are actually friends.

Exactly how would Superman have deceived Lois into sleeping with him in any real sense?

Deceived her about his life, or his secret identity, but what is the deception that causes her to sleep with him when she otherwise would not have?

I think if you think he deceived her, you are making some assumptions a bout why Lois slept with him in the first place, which we can't really do, can we? All we know is that she slept with him based on what she knew...isn't that what everyone does?

If she’s sleeping with him because he’s hot…that’s…real. If she’s making her decision based on a less shallow reason; actual character traits he exhibits like being brave, and caring about people and using his abilities for good, then that’s not a deception either, because he IS the things he stands for as Superman. That's his real self.

I've often described fans' moral outrage over various aspects of SUPERMAN RETURNS as simultaneously overthinking and underthinking things. Complaining about Clark leaving Earth from a moral standpoint implies that he knew all the of the elements involved, makes assumptions about how he left, what happened and his control over the event, makes assumptions about what he and Lois knew about their ability to conceive a child, etc, and makes assumptions about the relative importance of why he left in its own moral sense.

And yes, him spying on Lois is kind of creepy….but listening in on an entire world isn’t? I think we’re splitting hairs at that point. There are problematic aspects to many of his abilities.
 
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