Superman Returns Superman Returns review on Youtube

[Timstuff]

I found this on Youtube a few days ago. While I don't agree with the guy's assessment that Superman is an uninteresting character, I do agree with him that most of the films have done little to disprove that notion. He seems to know the mythos pretty well and gets what is so wrong with Superman Returns.

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[roach]

Sorry but I cant put much credit in a review if the first thing you say is "I never liked Superman." His view of the movie is going to be tainted by his view of the character.

 

[Timstuff]

He gives explanations for why, though, and he implies that it's not so much the character of Superman that he dislikes but rather the way he has often been depicted, and I think a lot of his reasons are sound.

 

[The ?ion]

Honestly, I agree and disagree with his opinion. The film had a very human approach to the character, which is very inviting on multiple levels. Conversely, the film spent too much time exploring that aspect of the character. I am all for the John Byrne lens of interpreting Superman (Clark as the actual persona). In that context, it makes sense to focus on Clark and Lois. Unfortunately, Superman Returns presents mixed interpretations. Superman is not assertive enough, but neither is Clark, even though we get the sense that the movie is about Superman, from a Clark perspective.

Between that and a lack of a compelling villain, the movie really has difficulty being as entertaining as it should be. For fans, it is a worth while watch, but for casual superhero movie watchers, there just isn't enough. Hopefully, the next screen writer and director won't be afraid to ditch Lex Luthor and go for somebody menacing e.g. Metallo, Parasite, Doomsday, Darkseid. Heck, I'd even love to see Imperiex.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I love his interpretation of Clark Kent

 

[mego joe]

He makes a lot of great points about SR AND how not to portray Superman in a story, or rather how one can go wrong with the character.

 

[Robert Scorpio]

He makes a lot of great points about SR AND how not to portray Superman in a story, or rather how one can go wrong with the character.

I really enjoyed the story. It was very touching. Sometimes you should appreciate different interpretations of the character.

 

[roach]

I agree. SR wasnt a typical superhero movie. It was a character study on superman...my only issues with the movie were the flying scenes...they looked GG...flying in a superman movie should be at the top level of technology

 

[Matt]

"Clark Kent, you are a tasteless, self satisfied, son of a dead alien *****."



Yeah, I disagree with the notion that Superman is boring. When written properly he's one of the most interesting comic characters around But aside from that, all his complaints are spot on.

 

[Matt]

I agree. SR wasnt a typical superhero movie. It was a character study on superman...my only issues with the movie were the flying scenes...they looked GG...flying in a superman movie should be at the top level of technology

Thing is though, it wasn't a character study on Superman. What Bryan Singer gave us wasn't Superman. It was a greedy bastard.

 

[roach]

In what way was he a greedy bastard???
It was a character study on Superman. The actions of Superman fit with what we saw in Superman 2. He can be with Lois because his father said so. He ran into the Kryptonian criminals and wonders if there are others out there...He comes back and feels lonely. He checks in on Lois because he loves her.

 

[roach]

greedy, self satisfying?????
like reversing time to save his girlfriend????
like giving up his powers and responsibilities to be with Lois????

 

[mego joe]

I really enjoyed the story. It was very touching. Sometimes you should appreciate different interpretations of the character.

If it had any merit I would, but SR was just wrong and boring. I thought the story was not only boring and horribly slow it painted Superman out to be the bad guy. What was touching about it? I had no sympathy for Superman. When the Richard comes off as a bigger hero than Superman then you know something is not right.
The characterization was completely incorrect in my opinion. As much as Singer tried to base his film on the Donner movies, he didn't get the characterization right. He didn't understand how the details of his story would be interpreted, or he doesn't understand the character enough to use details that are in character.
Singer had a great basic idea, but the execution and the story details he used destroyed any merit his basic concept had.

 

[mego joe]

Thing is though, it wasn't a character study on Superman. What Bryan Singer gave us wasn't Superman. It was a greedy bastard.

I don't know if it he was a greedy bastard, but I think you got the bastard part right.

To me the biggest differences in the characterization between SR and the Donner films lie in his attitude towards Lois. Reeve's Superman would do anything for Lois. He put her first, as anyone would who loves someone. Routh's Superman put himself first instead of putting Lois first. Not only is this diametrically opposed to Reeve's Superman, it is diametrically opposed to every version of Superman that's ever existed. It's basic to the character. You can't get this wrong and expect to make a good Superman movie.

As far as the filmmaking goes, the story was boring and horribly slow and there just wasn't enough backstory to make sense of what had actually transpired between Lois and Superman before he left.

 

[mego joe]

greedy, self satisfying?????
like reversing time to save his girlfriend????
like giving up his powers and responsibilities to be with Lois????

Last time I checked those were examples of Superman putting Lois ahead of himself and his father's wishes. This makes sense.

In SR he puts himself ahead of Lois. This does not make sense.

Greedy and self-satisfying may not be exactly right, I prefer selfish and cowardly. These characterizations don't fit Superman either.

 

[roach]

How did he put himself ahead of Lois in SR???

 

[mego joe]

How did he put himself ahead of Lois in SR???

Instead of saying goodbye before leaving, he took it easy on himself by not saying goodbye. He put his needs above Lois's. He admitted it was 'too hard,'- a lame excuse if I ever heard one and certainly something Superman would never say.

Instead of letting her have her privacy he went and spied on her using his super-stalking powers. He put his insecurity above the Lois, Richard Jason family's right to privacy. He comes back after 5 years and is so wrapped up in his feelings he can't belive that things have changed with Lois.

Instead of leaving well enough alone and accepting that she's moved on he tries to rekindle the romance and even tries to compare himself favorably to Richard despite the fact that Superman believes her to be in love with Richard and with whom she has a child. His selfishness comes before Lois's life with Richard and Jason.

To me these character elements are not Superman. You could do a story like this about a new character, but it just doesn't work as Superman. It's just not Superman. Despite all of Singer's efforts to channel Reeve and the tone of the Donner films it just isn't believable as Superman.

 

[El Payaso]

Point of roach is that it's as un-Superman to quit as Suiperman because you want to bed a girl. Or (ab)use your super-powers to have a personal vendetta against a trucker, or erase your girl's memories without asking for her permission. And I'm not too sure what happened with Zod, Ursa and Non.

 

[Robert Scorpio]

Instead of saying goodbye before leaving, he took it easy on himself by not saying goodbye. He put his needs above Lois's. He admitted it was 'too hard,'- a lame excuse if I ever heard one and certainly something Superman would never say.

Instead of letting her have her privacy he went and spied on her using his super-stalking powers. He put his insecurity above the Lois, Richard Jason family's right to privacy. He comes back after 5 years and is so wrapped up in his feelings he can't belive that things have changed with Lois.

Instead of leaving well enough alone and accepting that she's moved on he tries to rekindle the romance and even tries to compare himself favorably to Richard despite the fact that Superman believes her to be in love with Richard and with whom she has a child. His selfishness comes before Lois's life with Richard and Jason.

To me these character elements are not Superman. You could do a story like this about a new character, but it just doesn't work as Superman. It's just not Superman. Despite all of Singer's efforts to channel Reeve and the tone of the Donner films it just isn't believable as Superman.

He made bad choices in the Donner films as well and yet you praise them as if they are masterpieces. He realized the nature and consquences of his actions in Returns. He realizes he made a mistake leaving and not saying goodbye. This god like figure showed he had a human side having lived among them all his life. There was a price he paid having to watch the woman he loved and the discovery of a child he concieved move on not being apart of their lives. It seems the only challenge you want for Superman is that of a superpowered villain to threaten the city and innocent people. A story we all have seen done to death. Bless Singer for giving us something different.

 

[mego joe]

He made bad choices in the Donner films as well and yet you praise them as if they are masterpieces.

I don't think I actually praised them, I just showed how he put Lois first in the Donner films, but I never actually said they were masterpieces, nor have I ever.

He realized the nature and consquences of his actions in Returns.

As he did in the Donner films, except that I don't find the mistakes he made in SR to be congruent with the character in the Donner films nor the comics.

The details of the mistakes are what give us insight into Superman's character in the films. The mistakes in SR are out of character, where as the mistakes in the Donner films I found to be believable.

He realizes he made a mistake leaving and not saying goodbye. This god like figure showed he had a human side having lived among them all his life. There was a price he paid having to watch the woman he loved and the discovery of a child he concieved move on not being apart of their lives. It seems the only challenge you want for Superman is that of a superpowered villain to threaten the city and innocent people. A story we all have seen done to death.

Actually, that's not true I never once mentioned needing more action or hitting. I just find a 'baby daddy' or 'hit-and-run boyfriend' story to be out of character for Superman and pretty darn boring. Additionally, it wasn't executed well enough to be interesting- almost zero real conflict between Superman and Lois, and there was not enough backstory to explain the circumstances of Superman and Lois's previous relationship.

Bless Singer for giving us something different.

Well, maybe bless Singer for doing such a bad job that Nolan's getting a shot.

 

[VenomsMom]

Well Mego Joe......that makes sense to me. Thank god we wont get the sequel to my two dads or mama drama or ahh screw it you get the point.

 

[mego joe]

He made bad choices in the Donner films as well and yet you praise them as if they are masterpieces. He realized the nature and consquences of his actions in Returns. He realizes he made a mistake leaving and not saying goodbye. This god like figure showed he had a human side having lived among them all his life. There was a price he paid having to watch the woman he loved and the discovery of a child he concieved move on not being apart of their lives. It seems the only challenge you want for Superman is that of a superpowered villain to threaten the city and innocent people. A story we all have seen done to death. Bless Singer for giving us something different.

Three more quick comments....

1. The Action- it wasn't that there wasn't enough it just felt meaningless.

2. It would have been a much better film if he HAD said goodbye and came back to a Lois that had still moved on and if Jason was biologically Richard's son and developed a more compelling and interesting backstory to the Superman/ Lois relationship and his motivation for leaving Earth. There's a bigger lesson to be learned there than having learned it was wrong to not say goodbye- because...

3. It is absurd to think that Superman didn't know he should have said goodbye- as a matter of fact he did know otherwise it wouldn't have been 'too difficult' for him to do it (his own explanation!). This demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of the character on Singer's part. Superman is not emotionally crippled when it comes to doing the right thing by Lois.

 

[Robert Scorpio]

Three more quick comments....

1. The Action- it wasn't that there wasn't enough it just felt meaningless.

2. It would have been a much better film if he HAD said goodbye and came back to a Lois that had still moved on and if Jason was biologically Richard's son and developed a more compelling and interesting backstory to the Superman/ Lois relationship and his motivation for leaving Earth. There's a bigger lesson to be learned there than having learned it was wrong to not say goodbye- because...

3. It is absurd to think that Superman didn't know he should have said goodbye- as a matter of fact he did know otherwise it wouldn't have been 'too difficult' for him to do it (his own explanation!). This demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of the character on Singer's part. Superman is not emotionally crippled when it comes to doing the right thing by Lois.

1. I beg to differ. The action very much compliments the story. It is because of the choice he makes to leave is what led to the events of the blackouts caused by Luther. The airplane sequence, the runaway car, and of course the series of destruction at the end. It is his technology stolen from the fortress that is to blame. And is a result of his negligent actions to leave the planet.

2. I can accept him not being able to say goodbye to Lois. Should he have told her, of course he should have. That was the biggest mistake on his part and he knows that now. The news of survivors overwhelmed him and he felt a responsibilty to seek them. Leaving his adoptive world was hard enough but having to face the woman he loved and tell her he was leaving and may never come back was extremely difficuly as he explained. He understood the consequences and decided to allow her to move on with her life as if he no longer existed. At that point he just felt Lois would come to grips with it just move on with her life as she did. I think it showed that this superpowered godlike being was perone to making a bad decision just like many human beings.

3. Regardless of whether he said goodbye and she moved with Richard and her child she still would have been bitter because she never would have wanted him to go. She would have tried to talk him out of it and he knows that. She would not have been understanding of his needs despite of everything he has ever done for her. The man returns out of no where and save her from a fiery death and she still is hell bent on giving him the third degree.

 

[Robert Scorpio]

I don't think I actually praised them, I just showed how he put Lois first in the Donner films, but I never actually said they were masterpieces, nor have I ever.




Actually, that's not true I never once mentioned needing more action or hitting. I just find a 'baby daddy' or 'hit-and-run boyfriend' story to be out of character for Superman and pretty darn boring. Additionally, it wasn't executed well enough to be interesting- almost zero real conflict between Superman and Lois, and there was not enough backstory to explain the circumstances of Superman and Lois's previous relationship.



Well, maybe bless Singer for doing such a bad job that Nolan's getting a shot.

I apologize. Your right you never said they were master pieces. I take that back. I was under that impression.

I like personal conflict in the hero. They should not be flawless and sometimes show an uncharacteristic side that allows them to grow. We all learn certain values at an early age and yet sometimes our own needs and wants hurt those we truly love. He gave in to what he wanted. And was willing to sacrifice it all for what he percieved as his own happiness. The4 bottom line is that when he found nothing out there he realized the consequence of his decisions and had to deal with it. In the end he accepted it.

Bless Singer for doing something different and an outstanding job at it despite it not getting a sequel. To bad the masses don't accept a tragic story filled with depth. Sad really. Dollar signs these days are the driving force for these films. Hopefully Nolan can deliver the same rich depth and character development and be successful. But Singer, you will be missed.

 

[mego joe]

I apologize. Your right you never said they were master pieces. I take that back. I was under that impression.

No worries. I know a lot of people 'worship' the Donner stuff. I think Superman: The Movies is the best of the Reeve films, but it's far from perfect. It's great up until Lex steals the missiles, but then it loses a lot.
Overall, I give it an 8.5. By comparison I give Superman II an 7.75 and Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut an 8.0. Superman Returns gets a 3.5 and is only better than Frank Miller's abomination "The Spirit" in terms of comic book films. (Keep in mind there are some stinkers I haven't seen ie. Catwoman, Steel, etc....)

I like personal conflict in the hero. They should not be flawless and sometimes show an uncharacteristic side that allows them to grow. We all learn certain values at an early age and yet sometimes our own needs and wants hurt those we truly love. He gave in to what he wanted. And was willing to sacrifice it all for what he percieved as his own happiness. The4 bottom line is that when he found nothing out there he realized the consequence of his decisions and had to deal with it. In the end he accepted it.

ANd those things are great in a character, I just didn't find the Superman in SR to accurate to any incarnation of the character in those personal conflicts and mistakes. I just don't see him not saying goodbye to Lois, I don't think he would ever be so wrapped up in himself not think that Lois couldn't go on if he were gone for 5 years.

The way to do this story is along the lines of the Elseworld's Graphic Novel "Superman and Son." It has a lot of similarities with SR but keeps Lois and Superman true to their characters.

Bless Singer for doing something different and an outstanding job at it despite it not getting a sequel. To bad the masses don't accept a tragic story filled with depth. Sad really. Dollar signs these days are the driving force for these films. Hopefully Nolan can deliver the same rich depth and character development and be successful. But Singer, you will be missed.

I just can't say SInger did anything better than a mediocre job with SR. It's very uneven and way too underacted. The things that should have jumped out at us in this story like the conflict between Superman and Lois Lane is barely there. Singer spent so much time on nostalgia that he forgot that his story needed some attention.

And I don't think there was any rich deep character development in SR. SUperman was particularly wooden in my opinion and the movie as a whole is very uninteresting as a Superman film- the overall feel is that Superman really shouldn't be in this situation to begin with so it doesn't really work as a Superman story. It's better as a film than a Superman film. You come into this film knowing who the character is supposed to be, so you have to stick to that. It would have worked much better as a new character rather than as Superman who would not act this way.

I know I won't change your opinion, but this is the way I feel about the film and Singer's job on the film.

I don't think it's about $ either. Batman Begins didn't make much different domestically but the two films were received completely differently. BB was loved by nearly all critics and fans, SR split the fan base and the general audience walked away with eh, it was OK. THat's the problem not $. The potential for a great sequel to SR is handcuffed by the 'baby daddy' status quo and the fact that no one really cares what comes next. In many ways it feels like the end instead of the beginning of a franchise. It would even have been better if he'd died at the end.