The Dark Knight TDK Casting Sides

I am also going to share my over-analytical thoughts on this matter.

The Tumbler is cool. It was a great scene.

Bye now!
 
Inconsistent, maybe. Contradictory, hardly. Bruce Wayne has almost always been shown to either hate or fear guns. He has been shown several times to be wary of any alliance with a military company.

Wait, so in some comics, you say he hates military technology and is wary of any alliance with a military company. Yet in others, his own company produces military tech like armored suit components such as kevlar and nomex, night/thermal vision and advanced satellite communications, not to mention most of the tech and equipment for his transportation - Batman's boat, the jet and the car all come from his company and that he utilizes it for his own purpose. But hey, according to you, if they aren't for military use, they must be for domestic purposes, eh?

I don't know that his company produces military weaponry in the comics. I know he's produced vehicles and grapples and armor and so forth. I have yet to see Wayne Enterprises make guns, bombs, missles, etc.

I never said military weapons. I said military "technology". There's a difference. And that includes things other than guns, you know. And yes, his company does produce military technology. And regardless of what you say about his fear or loathing of guns, he has used them in Year Two and DKR. And has also utilized explosives a number of times before for different purposes.

Unfortunately, what you're speaking from is memory. And memories aren't that reliable.

They aren't reliable when speaking of a single particular instance. Unfortunately for you, our circular arguments have had more than quite a bit of repetition, so yes, memory is pretty reliable when it becomes a habit.

The way I conduct myself? Oh...you don't like that I question things rather than accept them blindly, and that I analyze things. But we already knew that.

The way you conduct yourself as in engaging in pointless criticism generally backed by nothing but oversensitive nonsense and insubstantial arguments.

Obviously it is my questioning you had a problem with, because that's all the "Wayne Enterprises military connection" was. A discussion point. I never passed judgement on the film itself back then. I passed judgement on the script draft, which was tangible, and right there to be critiqued. The quality of the writing and the adaption based on the script. Unless you can find anything that indicates otherwise, you can spout on and on all you want about me passing judgement on the film based on the first draft, but you can't prove a thing.

Like I said before, I am not here to prove it. I'm speaking not just from memory, but from experience. You have a hard time swallowing the truth, tough luck, kiddo.

I don't believe I ever, back then, said the script couldn't or wouldn't change, and I recall hoping and saying I wished it would in some areas. It did, in some areas, and I recall recognizing those things in my review of the film and discussion of it.

Actually, whenever someone pointed out that it was only the first draft and many things can change in the shooting script, you dismissed their argument by pointing to all the available footage from trailers and pics and saying that since pretty much everything revealed at the time was consistent with the first draft, there wasn't much hope for changes.

But hey, we both know you're going to play the 'I didn't say that' or 'prove it' card knowing well there is no way to dig up links or actual posts now, so I won't really bother either. Besides, I can't imagine how low a self-esteem and personal integrity it would take for a person to not stand by his own words. You want to engage in such cowardice? Fine by me.

Truth without proof, huh? Classic.

What part about the Hype deleting pretty much everything in the BB forum didn't you understand? Are you suffering from some kind of critical deficiency in reading comprehension. Just because proof is not available anymore doesn't mean it never existed to begin with.

There's a difference between hurting someone who was attacking you to escape a deadly situation...and risking injury or serious death to someone who hasn't even attacked you to prove a point. What happened in BATMAN BEGINS is the latter.

What, did you shut off your brain while watching Begins? So you're saying Batman hurting people who are attacking him to save his own life is allowed, but not when he's trying to save another life and said people are preventing him from doing so? Bloody hypocrite.

Yes, time was of the essence. And yet he had the luxury of slowing down a bit to climb/run over a police car, rather than just accelerating past it and saving time?

So that particular precinct won't join the pursuit and cause him more trouble later on. Really, it's such an

This is my point: He didn't NEED to shake them off his tail. They weren't even aware of his presence until he ran them over.

No, they noticed him before he ran them over. Look at that scene again. That's how the police initiate 'lockdowns' around an area. They close all possible exits from the place. That police car wasn't there just to get some donuts you know.

He cut it close because that's how the story is written. For Rachel to conveniently faint at that precise moment when he's almost home. What's your point?

Please, that's such a lame copout. Clearly you were criticizing Batman's actions in the context of the story and when I pointed out they were clearly justified, you say 'because that's how the story is written'? Brilliant! Why don't we use that phrase for the events taking place in every single Batman film, comic and novel and be done with all the arguments, eh?

You: 'Batman doesn't (insert any "out of character" action) in the comics, but he does in the films'

Me: 'D'uh, because the story in the comics is written that way'.

Yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:

And he did engage in a bit of "further delay" when he essentially slowed down in the process of running over that police cruiser.

So that particular precinct won't join the pursuit and cause him more trouble. Cops tend to do that, you know.

Watching the film, I was kinda wondering why he didn't just run from the cops on the streets and keep running them over until he escaped. That would have been kooool.

Yet here you are crying about him running over just one car. You can't seem to make up your mind about things now, can you?

Hey, that's great. He's taking their car out of action. My point is...he didn't need to risk their lives to do so.

Like I said, it was a calculated risk. You get your hypersensitive tendencies in a bunch because Batman plays rough sometimes even in the comics, hey, stop liking the character and wasting our time with never-ending needless whining about how it's not consistent with your pacifist version of Batman.

They weren't even aware of his presence until he ran over their car. If he zooms past...with police cars coming behind him...they're going to have to either accelerate, and join the chase, or wait for their fellow officers to pass and join the chase.

And they did. Had he not taken out that first car beforehand, he would have had to do it later when next time they couldn't be caught by surprise like that and won't be so easy to dispose of.

I know police tactics well enough. I'm aware of chase procedures. However, the cops in question weren't giving chase. They were apparently just parked there waiting. They don't even seem to be aware of Batman's presence nearby. They're clearly just sitting there at the scene, as the film shows the two officers inside the car not even driving, just sort of looking up in surprise when they hear the Tumbler coming.

Those cops were guarding one of the exits from Arkham. Their job is to stop anyone from leaving the premises and chase them if they do. It's not like if Batman nudged by them, they would have simply forgot about it and said, 'hell with it, we were just waiting there and that's what we will continue to do'.

Yes, Batman SHOULD restrain himself, and generally does. Batman will do whatever it takes to minimalize contact, to avoid killing anyone. Especially, I would think, police officers who are ONLY DOING THEIR JOBS. You realize that you're comparing the possibility of broken ribs and internal bleeding to being absolutely crushed by a speeding tank? Either you can discuss the point on its own, or you can't. These aren't CRIMINALS we're discussing. These are POLICE OFFICERS.

Yes, the kind of POLICE OFFICERS he dropped an entire floor on in Year One. You don't approve? Go find another superhero, junior, because Batman's taken such calculated risks in the comics many times before.

Fire is not the issue. The force of the explosion is. Why don't YOU watch the scene very closely? There is the clear flash of an explosion there. And the cars being tossed into the air, rolling, etc, at high speeds...can't really be argued. That's an extremely dangerous situation to be in. You realize that elements of a car can explode just because of the IMPACT from a crash, right? How else do you think that parts of cars catch on fire when they crash?

Like I said before, it's pointless to argue "what could've happened" over what takes place in a fictional universe. I'll just say people aren't as fragile in a make-believe world as they are in the real one and that Batman took a calculated risk, something he's done many times before in the comics. Hence it not being 'out of character'.

It's not about whether people were killed or not, in the context of the film. It's about your absurd argument that what Batman did was appropriate.

How is it absurd? I've shown you how Batman has taken what your call 'reckless' action in Year One, so if BB does something similar to the very adaptation it is based on, how the **** is it 'out-of-character'? :confused:

Personally, I think it's you who are just looking for excuses to ***** about me...since you brought this up in the first place.

Please, I don't like you enough to waste my time on you anymore than I have to.

And newsflash, I don't think what he does there in YEAR ONE is the most appropriate thing to do, either.

And who gives a rat's ass about what you think, skippy? It proves my point about how it is not 'out-of-character'. You can take your pacifist version of Batman and shove it up your rear end for all I care.

Dropping the roof on the SWAT team, obviously. How is that relevant to our discussion?

Uh, because I am citing an event from the very comic BB is based on to prove how your criticism of Batman's actions in the film during the Arkham escape is load of horse manure? Seems pretty relevant to me.

Oh, he did something more reckless in some other comic, and so my argument that he's a bit reckless and apathetic in BEGINS is null and void? Sorry, doesn't work that way. I've seen Batman kill and torture people in the comics. That doesn't excuse what he does in BATMAN BEGINS any more.

Hate to bust your bubble, but it does work that way. Batman has taken such risks in the comics before. He did so in Year One. Another instance I remember is him getting Catwoman to drop Lois from a skyscraper in Hush. And it would've killed Lois had Superman not saved her because of Ivy's influence on him. Another instance I remember, in Detective Comics #790, him throwing a junkie dealer he was interrogating through the window of a building several stories tall to get information out of him. For information. And had Batgirl not saved him, he would've been dead. Like I said, calculated risks. He's done so many times in the comics and it's not out of character.

Here's scans as proof so you'd shut up about this already:

Picture.jpg

Picture001.jpg


I don't know. Do we? I notice you skimmed over the part where I pointed out that in YEAR ONE, he's being attacked, and in BATMAN BEGINS, he isn't. Again: There's a HUGE difference between being ATTACKED (In YEAR ONE, he'd already been in a bombing, been shot, and was being shot at by multiple persons) and doing what it takes to survive...and in not being attacked, and attacking others anyway (the cops were just doing their job, and he felt the need to risk their lives...fairly needlessly. He could have evaded them in the Tumbler anyway).

In BB he was running from the cops not just to escape, but also save Rachel. He was the only one who had the antidote, that is why he didn't let Gordon take her down to the medics. She would've been dead by the time the police figured it out. Whether or not he was attacked like in Year One is irrelevant. Batman did what he had to do to save a life that was bordering in its last moments.

You would excuse and justify someone who attacks and risks injury and death to those who have not attacked them at all? Tell me...is it ok for an ambulance to smash into a stationary car full of kids because someone needs help in the back of it?

Uh, no because that would kill or injure people in both vehicles and would hence, serve no purpose. Try thinking of something that makes more sense next time, junior.

Nope. I'm pretty keen on violence \as a method, but not needless violence, which is what I see utilized here. I'm not keen on a character who has always been about determining who to harm and not to harm (hint: bad guys VS innocents and lawmen) harming people when there are other options. And it's hilarious that you can't handle me having that opinion.

I've already given the Year One example (and two more in this post) where he took an even more drastic action than what you're whining about in BB. Which proves your 'out of character' claim couldn't be more worthless. And I find it hilarious you crying about something that's been an aspect of the character in many stories from the source material. Boo-freakin'-hoo.
 
You people are wearing out my mouse wheel.
 
Wait, so in some comics, you say he hates military technology and is wary of any alliance with a military company. Yet in others, his own company produces military tech like armored suit components such as kevlar and nomex, night/thermal vision and advanced satellite communications, not to mention most of the tech and equipment for his transportation - Batman's boat, the jet and the car all come from his company and that he utilizes it for his own purpose. But hey, according to you, if they aren't for military use, they must be for domestic purposes, eh?



I never said military weapons. I said military "technology". There's a difference. And that includes things other than guns, you know. And yes, his company does produce military technology. And regardless of what you say about his fear or loathing of guns, he has used them in Year Two and DKR. And has also utilized explosives a number of times before for different purposes.



They aren't reliable when speaking of a single particular instance. Unfortunately for you, our circular arguments have had more than quite a bit of repetition, so yes, memory is pretty reliable when it becomes a habit.



The way you conduct yourself as in engaging in pointless criticism generally backed by nothing but oversensitive nonsense and insubstantial arguments.



Like I said before, I am not here to prove it. I'm speaking not just from memory, but from experience. You have a hard time swallowing the truth, tough luck, kiddo.



Actually, whenever someone pointed out that it was only the first draft and many things can change in the shooting script, you dismissed their argument by pointing to all the available footage from trailers and pics and saying that since pretty much everything revealed at the time was consistent with the first draft, there wasn't much hope for changes.

But hey, we both know you're going to play the 'I didn't say that' or 'prove it' card knowing well there is no way to dig up links or actual posts now, so I won't really bother either. Besides, I can't imagine how low a self-esteem and personal integrity it would take for a person to not stand by his own words. You want to engage in such cowardice? Fine by me.



What part about the Hype deleting pretty much everything in the BB forum didn't you understand? Are you suffering from some kind of critical deficiency in reading comprehension. Just because proof is not available anymore doesn't mean it never existed to begin with.



What, did you shut off your brain while watching Begins? So you're saying Batman hurting people who are attacking him to save his own life is allowed, but not when he's trying to save another life and said people are preventing him from doing so? Bloody hypocrite.



So that particular precinct won't join the pursuit and cause him more trouble later on. Really, it's such an



No, they noticed him before he ran them over. Look at that scene again. That's how the police initiate 'lockdowns' around an area. They close all possible exits from the place. That police car wasn't there just to get some donuts you know.



Please, that's such a lame copout. Clearly you were criticizing Batman's actions in the context of the story and when I pointed out they were clearly justified, you say 'because that's how the story is written'? Brilliant! Why don't we use that phrase for the events taking place in every single Batman film, comic and novel and be done with all the arguments, eh?

You: 'Batman doesn't (insert any "out of character" action) in the comics, but he does in the films'

Me: 'D'uh, because the story in the comics is written that way'.

Yeah, that makes sense. :rolleyes:



So that particular precinct won't join the pursuit and cause him more trouble. Cops tend to do that, you know.



Yet here you are crying about him running over just one car. You can't seem to make up your mind about things now, can you?



Like I said, it was a calculated risk. You get your hypersensitive tendencies in a bunch because Batman plays rough sometimes even in the comics, hey, stop liking the character and wasting our time with never-ending needless whining about how it's not consistent with your pacifist version of Batman.



And they did. Had he not taken out that first car beforehand, he would have had to do it later when next time they couldn't be caught by surprise like that and won't be so easy to dispose of.



Those cops were guarding one of the exits from Arkham. Their job is to stop anyone from leaving the premises and chase them if they do. It's not like if Batman nudged by them, they would have simply forgot about it and said, 'hell with it, we were just waiting there and that's what we will continue to do'.



Yes, the kind of POLICE OFFICERS he dropped an entire floor on in Year One. You don't approve? Go find another superhero, junior, because Batman's taken such calculated risks in the comics many times before.



Like I said before, it's pointless to argue "what could've happened" over what takes place in a fictional universe. I'll just say people aren't as fragile in a make-believe world as they are in the real one and that Batman took a calculated risk, something he's done many times before in the comics. Hence it not being 'out of character'.



How is it absurd? I've shown you how Batman has taken what your call 'reckless' action in Year One, so if BB does something similar to the very adaptation it is based on, how the **** is it 'out-of-character'? :confused:



Please, I don't like you enough to waste my time on you anymore than I have to.



And who gives a rat's ass about what you think, skippy? It proves my point about how it is not 'out-of-character'. You can take your pacifist version of Batman and shove it up your rear end for all I care.



Uh, because I am citing an event from the very comic BB is based on to prove how your criticism of Batman's actions in the film during the Arkham escape is load of horse manure? Seems pretty relevant to me.



Hate to bust your bubble, but it does work that way. Batman has taken such risks in the comics before. He did so in Year One. Another instance I remember is him getting Catwoman to drop Lois from a skyscraper in Hush. And it would've killed Lois had Superman not saved her because of Ivy's influence on him. Another instance I remember, in Detective Comics #790, him throwing a junkie dealer he was interrogating through the window of a building several stories tall to get information out of him. For information. And had Batgirl not saved him, he would've been dead. Like I said, calculated risks. He's done so many times in the comics and it's not out of character.

Here's scans as proof so you'd shut up about this already:

Picture.jpg

Picture001.jpg




In BB he was running from the cops not just to escape, but also save Rachel. He was the only one who had the antidote, that is why he didn't let Gordon take her down to the medics. She would've been dead by the time the police figured it out. Whether or not he was attacked like in Year One is irrelevant. Batman did what he had to do to save a life that was bordering in its last moments.



Uh, no because that would kill or injure people in both vehicles and would hence, serve no purpose. Try thinking of something that makes more sense next time, junior.



I've already given the Year One example (and two more in this post) where he took an even more drastic action than what you're whining about in BB. Which proves your 'out of character' claim couldn't be more worthless. And I find it hilarious you crying about something that's been an aspect of the character in many stories from the source material. Boo-freakin'-hoo.

Phaser just pwned the guard.
 
I see someone isn't famliar with sarcasm (my comment about driving over all the cops as a method of escape), context and opinions (I don't feel Batman should drive over innocent people, regardless of his reasoning)...or logic (one example from YEAR ONE and two from other stories where writers played with Batman doing things that were out-of-character to begin with making a "character action" faithful? Why do n't I show you some scans from any comic where Batman kills and spout on about how it's ok for him to do so in BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS?) and basic morality (let's drive over some cops! It's ok, because we have to save Rachel!). You act like a child sometimes. And I'm not interested in arguing at length with someone who can't do so respectfully. Especially when I've already made my points. Many times.

By the way, the threads from BATMAN BEGINS still exist, as far back as 2003. I was just there.
 
Don't know if it's a April Fool joke or not, but I found it on showfax.com if you want it.
 
I see someone isn't famliar with sarcasm (my comment about driving over all the cops as a method of escape)...

Forgot to add a smiley there. Happens when you're composing posts of a couple thousand words.

...context and opinions (I don't feel Batman should drive over innocent people, regardless of his reasoning)...

And who cares about your opinion anyway? It's only when you make absurd claims about Batman never even calculatedly endangering anyone for whatever purpose is when we have a point for argument.

...or logic (one example from YEAR ONE and two from other stories where writers played with Batman doing things that were out-of-character to begin with making a "character action" faithful?

For BB, it is faithful if his actions are consistent with those in Year One. And my example proves it is. Apparently you are the one who is unfamiliar with logic here.

Why do n't I show you some scans from any comic where Batman kills and spout on about how it's ok for him to do so in BATMAN and BATMAN RETURNS?)...

Didn't you do so countless number of times before already against posters who were 'hating' on the Burton films before BB was released? Besides, I don't have a problem with it. I'm not some radical elitist fanboy who whines about over every little thing over infidelity to the source material. I even welcome certain changes Burton made in Batman Returns, even those that aren't consistent with the comics in any way, shape or form.

and basic morality (let's drive over some cops! It's ok, because we have to save Rachel!).

How many times do I have to repeat this? 'Calculated risk'. If he really want to 'drive over' the cops, he would have done so head on instead of doing it at an angle. He wanted to disable the vehicle, yes, but also approach it in a way that gave the officers inside a chance to avoid serious harm or injury. And you can clearly see they got an obvious warning when they saw the headlights and the thundering boom of the engine.

You act like a child sometimes.

And just in the following sentence you talk about arguing 'respectfully'. :whatever:

And I'm not interested in arguing at length with someone who can't do so respectfully.

I'll just say it outright, Guard - your method of argument really aggravates and annoys me which is apparent in my posts, and I only indulge in it because of my meticulous nature and the necessity to make my point clear. Otherwise, I'd rather be writing college papers for extra credit or any other productive activity than engage in such overdrawn arguments.

Especially when I've already made my points. Many times.

Points that have been refuted. Many times.

By the way, the threads from BATMAN BEGINS still exist, as far back as 2003. I was just there.

That doesn't matter now. My core arguments were the issues about Wayne Enterprises and military technology (which you failed to address by the way) and that Batman's actions in BB during the Arkham escape scene were in line with the source material it is based on and hence, does not make it 'out of character' as you so absurdly claim.
 
I am also going to share my over-analytical thoughts on this matter.

The Tumbler is cool. It was a great scene.

Bye now!

I like you, you're one of my favorite posters - so I say this fondly:

Respect The Guard, dude.

You don't have to *agree* with him (where's the fun in that?) but you should totally respect him.

Intelligent debate is always welcome here. If it wasn't, I would never have joined. :up:
 
I like you, you're one of my favorite posters - so I say this fondly:

Respect The Guard, dude.

You don't have to *agree* with him (where's the fun in that?) but you should totally respect him.

Intelligent debate is always welcome here. If it wasn't, I would never have joined. :up:

Thanks for the heads-up, Keyser. But I do feel they were getting over-analytical, and it was definitely steering away from intelligent debate (which I celebrate and embrace with open arms like a naked Rachel Weisz) towards schoolyard taunts and name-calling. It was a (possibly) lame attempt at light relief.
And thank you for the opening line of your reply. Right back at ya, buddy.
*wipes away solitary tear running down cheek*
 
Yes, it's potentially cheesy...


BUT it fits a lot of the info we DO know about TDK, AND fits in with both the Joker's characterisation and Nolan's own personal traits.


From the other sides and interviews, TDK will focus on Batman, Gordon and Dent's pursuit of the Joker. There's a plot regarding mobsters in Gotham and the somoene's influence. There's references to hostage situations created by SOMEONE (not mentioned who?), there's a reference to other vigilantes inspired by Batman (and the capture of one by someone with 'a quiet voice and strange smile').

Then you have the plot of the National Guard being brought into Gotham, and the Batman being targeted (in a side with Gordon and his son).


Suppose the person doing these things is the Joker (duh)? BUT suppose they are done with all being directed at Batman (by dressing like him)? That would make him the suspect in all these situations, a bigger menace than he ever was in BB. It would also fit in with the title, The Dark Knight, and would be a story of how things have to get worse before they get better.

And it's still a very, very stupid idea...sorry mad-sci, but if that happens, consider me one very unhappy camper.
 
And it's still a very, very stupid idea...sorry mad-sci, but if that happens, consider me one very unhappy camper.

Aye, it doesn't appeal to me at all. Too cheesy, too over the top. And the whole 'Earnest Butler' Thins? Puh-leaze.
 
Aye, it doesn't appeal to me at all. Too cheesy, too over the top. And the whole 'Earnest Butler' Thins? Puh-leaze.

*nods* There's just no way that could work well on-screen.

Also, why would the pants need to be 'let out' - the Joker is a skinny guy, wouldn't he have the *opposite* problem?
 
*nods* There's just no way that could work well on-screen.

Also, why would the pants need to be 'let out' - the Joker is a skinny guy, wouldn't he have the *opposite* problem?

They might be VERY skinny pants, as worn by this muppet. Who is also a Joker. In the loosest possible meaning of the word.
downloads%5CRussell_Brand_10.JPG
 
I definitely agree that the idea of the Joker coming to the Batcave and dressing up in a batsuit IS over the top, cheesy and far too ridiculous.




The thing is though, Nolan's film credits show that he would thrive on the scenario created by this. Think about it - a genuine madman, dressed up as a vigilante, terrorising a city. Look at the Prestige, Insomnia, Memento or even Batman Begins, where the theme of duality is played up so well (and executed beautifully).

The film's called The Dark Knight, suggesting Batman is the primary focus. By having 2 main characters dressed up in the 'same' outfit, one a madman and the other 'not', Nolan could ask the question 'Is the man behind the mask crazy, and does it matter in the end?'





BUT, I'll admit the execution WOULD be VERY cringe-worthy (if done as written in the side...)
 
They might be VERY skinny pants, as worn by this muppet. Who is also a Joker. In the loosest possible meaning of the word.
downloads%5CRussell_Brand_10.JPG

*stabbity stab*

I hate Russell Brand more than anyone and I hate a lot of people.

BUT, I'll admit the execution WOULD be VERY cringe-worthy (if done as written in the side...)

Exactly and it just seems silly all-round. I know the Nolans are capable of making seemingly daft plot-points work but this just isn't one of them, IMO.
 
You hate a lot of people? Sounds like you need a hug....

*goes to hug Miranda, hesitates...*

You're not gonna stab me, are you?
 
Alright so.
*hugs Miranda*
Now, doesn't that feel better than wasting time on hate? I'm such a tree-hugger.
 

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