TDK vs CA: TWS

[DarthSkywalker]

Anyone who's taken history classes in American universities (and payed attention) has heard of the term "winter soldier". I doubt no one from the production crew knew that going in.

Even if it wasn't intentional, that's what's great about all forms of art (film included). They gain a life of their own.

As someone who has done this, and aced the courses, I still didn't get the reference without looking it up.

 

[The Batman]

The only thing TWS has over TDK are the fight scenes.

 

[Marvin]

Yeah I hated it. Hated Bucky in flashback scenes as well in that series. The terminator approach to Winter Soldier is pretty much exactly what he was in Brubaker's first arc. His role is more a character arc for steve in this film. Bucky will get his contemporary arc in Cap 3. Hard to get your own character arc in a film your brainwashed the entire film and your only thoughts belong to the mission.

Characters with motivation are golden as far as I'm concerned and the simple fact that one is given half an arc without such a thing for the duration of a film, whatever the circumstance is a loss imo. Have him talk but don't do the jerk from EMH then.
It would be like someone suggesting the hulk works best and is more in line with cannon if he is a mindless plot device. I personally think there is an approach that gives the character more to work with yet pleases everyone, in the context of a single film.

I really liked the brief scene with Bucky speaking his 'mind' during his debrief scene. Till Cap 3 I guess, I personally won't be as satisfied as other apparently are with the character.

 

[flickchick85]

I'll guarantee you 99% or people would not get the second reference. I'm not even convinced it was intentional.

There's no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. The term isn't all that obscure, and the title was clearly meant to apply to Cap as much, if not more so, than Bucky's alias, imo.

 

[jmc]

There's no doubt in my mind that it was intentional. The term isn't all that obscure, and the title was clearly meant to apply to Cap as much, if not more so, than Bucky's alias, imo.

I thought someone said the origins of the Winter Soldier name came from a documentary? It's too obscure to be anything other than a happy accident unless the creator of the name states otherwise. And I challenge the notion the term isn't obscure, maybe it's an American thing but it's certainly not a term of any significance outside the US.

 

[flickchick85]

I thought someone said the origins of the Winter Soldier name came from a documentary? It's too obscure to be anything other than a happy accident unless the creator of the name states otherwise. And I challenge the notion the term isn't obscure, maybe it's an American thing but it's certainly not a term of any significance outside the US.

It's definitely an American thing, but any U.S. students who had classes discussing Vietnam/the '70's controversies almost surely heard it at some point. That's where I first heard it, but it was based on Thomas Paine's famous pamphlets from our Revolutionary War, where he discussed the idea of the "summer soldiers," the soldiers who are just bandwagon jumpers who would desert as soon as the tide turned or things just got too rough. The term "winter soldier" was coined as the opposite of that - the guys who would hold firm to their convictions even if the bandwagon was going the other way. Our current Secretary of State, John Kerry, helped make the term famous back in the '70's when he gave an historic testimony as a Vietnam vet, revealing war crimes committed by our own troops over there. The documentary you referred to was made shortly after that time about the investigations surrounding this ordeal, but that's not where the term originated from.

Given the definition of the term, the significance it holds in our country's history, and how perfectly it fits Caps main plight in this film (having to stand against our own government and expose its crimes), it would take a lot to convince me it's a mere coincidence, writer confirmation or not.

EDIT: Found an article in which Ed Brubaker confirms that the name is a reference to Thomas Paine and the Winter Soldier Investigations of Vietnam: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-bradley/winter-solider_b_5060177.html

 

[PacificBoy]

I'm pretty sure it's intentional on the CA2 writers' part as well. It's hardly arcane knowledge in this internet age of information especially for a writer doing a bit of digging.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's pretty neat.

Anyway, this thread is problematic because TWS isn't in the same ballpark as TDK. It would make for a more interesting comparison if we had a genuinely comparable film, like Iron Man, X-Men First Class, or The Dark Knight Rises.

 

[jmc]

It's definitely an American thing, but any U.S. students who had classes discussing Vietnam/the '70's controversies almost surely heard it at some point. That's where I first heard it, but it was based on Thomas Paine's famous pamphlets from our Revolutionary War, where he discussed the idea of the "summer soldiers," the soldiers who are just bandwagon jumpers who would desert as soon as the tide turned or things just got too rough. The term "winter soldier" was coined as the opposite of that - the guys who would hold firm to their convictions even if the bandwagon was going the other way. Our current Secretary of State, John Kerry, helped make the term famous back in the '70's when he gave an historic testimony as a Vietnam vet, revealing war crimes committed by our own troops over there. The documentary you referred to was made shortly after that time about the investigations surrounding this ordeal, but that's not where the term originated from.

Given the definition of the term, the significance it holds in our country's history, and how perfectly it fits Caps main plight in this film (having to stand against our own government and expose its crimes), it would take a lot to convince me it's a mere coincidence, writer confirmation or not.

EDIT: Found an article in which Ed Brubaker confirms that the name is a reference to Thomas Paine and the Winter Soldier Investigations of Vietnam: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/william-bradley/winter-solider_b_5060177.html

Fair enough, can't argue against that, straight from the horses mouth. It begs the question then, why wasn't that concept of what a winter soldier is explored a bit more? It's all well and good to have that concept there, but it seems wasted if know one knows about it.

 

[Ajendo]

The hell? The only way TDK outshines TWS is Ledger's performance as the villain. That's a good thing and a bad thing because batman can't seem to rise beyond playing second fiddle to his villains. Other than that, TWS is far superior to TDK but obviously, it's just my own opinion.

 

[Ajendo]

Cap 2 is a perfectly executed modern Captain America movie.

TDK was a pop culture phenomenon.

But without Ledger's legendary performance Cap 2 would win easily.

This!

 

[PacificBoy]

The hell? The only way TDK outshines TWS is Ledger's performance as the villain. That's a good thing and a bad thing because batman can't seem to rise beyond playing second fiddle to his villains. Other than that, TWS is far superior to TDK but obviously, it's just my own opinion.

I see where you're coming from but how does one extricate Ledger's performance from the movie? Ledger's performance made the movie as much as the movie made Ledger's performance.

 

[The Joker]

I'll never understand why some people keep saying that if you take Ledger out of the movie then it's not as good. Well of course it isn't. Is The Empire Strikes Back as good without Vader? Jaws as good without the shark? Inglorious Basterds as good without Hans Landa? The Silence of the Lambs as good without Lecter etc? Of course they're not.

No offense but it's the most stupid redundant thing when people say TDK is not as good without Ledger.

 

[redfirebird2008]

because batman can't seem to rise beyond playing second fiddle to his villains.

This is the biggest load of crap ever.

 

[DA_Champion]

I think that Ridley Scott's Alien would be very poor if you took out the xenomorph.

 

[Space Ghost]

The hell? The only way TDK outshines TWS is Ledger's performance as the villain. That's a good thing and a bad thing because batman can't seem to rise beyond playing second fiddle to his villains. Other than that, TWS is far superior to TDK but obviously, it's just my own opinion.

Loool. Far superior in what? TWS has such a basic and predictable story that i don´t even know how anyone can say it is a far superior film. Plus, we don´t even get a decent soundtrack or a decent villain. And even the fans know that. That´s why they try to take Ledger out of the equation, hoping that way the movies can finally become comparable, wich is stupid. The movie has Ledger in it. Deal with it. It´s part of the movie. We can´t discuss how good a movie would be without him because we didn´t saw that movie. It didn´t happen.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

 

[samsnee]

I'll never understand why some people keep saying that if you take Ledger out of the movie then it's not as good. Well of course it isn't. Is The Empire Strikes Back as good without Vader? Jaws as good without the shark? Inglorious Basterds as good without Hans Landa? The Silence of the Lambs as good without Lecter etc? Of course they're not.

No offense but it's the most stupid redundant thing when people say TDK is not as good without Ledger.

I interpret it to mean that Ledger's performance was far stronger than anyone else's, so it elevated the movie as a whole. All the other actors were fine, but they weren't as memorable.

Whereas with TWS, while no one performance was close to Ledger's, as a whole, they were more cohesive, and let the story be the star instead of just one actor. The casting was spot on for pretty much all the roles. Even Frank Grillo, whom I never seen before this, was great. He wasn't just a straight out villain, but the transition from believing he was working with Cap to being against him at the end was believable.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I interpret it to mean that Ledger's performance was far stronger than anyone else's, so it elevated the movie as a whole. All the other actors were fine, but they weren't as memorable.

Whereas with TWS, while no one performance was close to Ledger's, as a whole, they were more cohesive, and let the story be the star instead of just one actor. The casting was spot on for pretty much all the roles. Even Frank Grillo, whom I never seen before this, was great. He wasn't just a straight out villain, but the transition from believing he was working with Cap to being against him at the end was believable.

Oldman and Eckhart were also far better than any of the acting in CA2.

 

[samsnee]

Eh, I think they were on par. No better, no worse. I think Oldman was born to play Gordon, so that's not to say he did a bad job.

 

[Space Ghost]

I interpret it to mean that Ledger's performance was far stronger than anyone else's, so it elevated the movie as a whole. All the other actors were fine, but they weren't as memorable.

Whereas with TWS, while no one performance was close to Ledger's, as a whole, they were more cohesive, and let the story be the star instead of just one actor. The casting was spot on for pretty much all the roles. Even Frank Grillo, whom I never seen before this, was great. He wasn't just a straight out villain, but the transition from believing he was working with Cap to being against him at the end was believable.

It´s not Ledger, it´s The Joker. It´s a character that almost always steals the show. And i don´t see how that can be seen as a bad thing.

The story was as much the star as Heath Ledger. Without a good story there would be nothing interesting and engaging for the character to do. Hell, the ending was one of the best parts of the movie and there was no Joker in it. But we had Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman, both with great perfomances. Even if you took Ledger out of the equation TDK would still have better performances overall than TWS and way more memorable characters.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Eh, I think they were on par. No better, no worse. I think Oldman was born to play Gordon, so that's not to say he did a bad job.

He was always a bad guy before they cast him in the role. It was very "against type." Not exactly obvious casting.

 

[Marvin]

I interpret it to mean that Ledger's performance was far stronger than anyone else's, so it elevated the movie as a whole. All the other actors were fine, but they weren't as memorable.

Whereas with TWS, while no one performance was close to Ledger's, as a whole, they were more cohesive, and let the story be the star instead of just one actor. The casting was spot on for pretty much all the roles. Even Frank Grillo, whom I never seen before this, was great. He wasn't just a straight out villain, but the transition from believing he was working with Cap to being against him at the end was believable.

I think they could have really played up the 'who u gonna trust..hail hydra whispers' alot more. Watching TDK there was a huge element of 'can't trust' any of these cops, these people, no safety, joker's got his hands in everyone.

Cap had the opportunity for this premise but sadly I think they simply side stepped it. Especially in the Black Widow front. The elevator scene had it been played differently....

I do think the shield show is no doubt taking advantage of this angle though.

 

[Space Ghost]

Scarlett Johansson sounds the same in most of her movies. Why does in TWS she talks like if she was a worker of a sex line? Is that how Black Widow is supposed to be? A little ****ish without much life in her?

 

[samsnee]

It´s not Ledger, it´s The Joker. It´s a character that almost always steals the show. And i don´t see how that can be seen as a bad thing.

The story was as much the star as Heath Ledger. Without a good story there would be nothing interesting and engaging for the character to do. Hell, the ending was one of the best parts of the movie and there was no Joker in it. But we had Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman, both with great perfomances. Even if you took Ledger out of the equation TDK would still have better performances overall than TWS and way more memorable characters.

I get what the ending was going for, and I do like the idea of Batman accepting to be the villain in order for Harvey to remain the hero. But I thought the execution could have been better. You could hardly understand Bale, it didn't make sense why Dent would flip a coin to shoot himself first before Gordon, (what if he lost that flip?), and the ending speech was just too cheesy for my tastes.

He was always a bad guy before they cast him in the role. It was very "against type." Not exactly obvious casting.

I didn't mean he was born to play it based on his past roles. Just that he played it so well, I can't imagine anyone else coming close.

I think they could have really played up the 'who u gonna trust..hail hydra whispers' alot more. Watching TDK there was a huge element of 'can't trust' any of these cops, these people, no safety, joker's got his hands in everyone.

Cap had the opportunity for this premise but sadly I think they simply side stepped it. Especially in the Black Widow front. The elevator scene had it been played differently....

I do think the shield show is no doubt taking advantage of this angle though.

I agree. When I first read some spoilers about the Hail Hydra scene, I was expecting more of a montage of previous characters saying it that we didn't realize were HYDRA, not just the Senator.