TDK vs CA: TWS

[georgec]

TWS is possibly the best thing Marvel has done (that or Iron Man), but TDK is still a notch above those.

 

[Hammer!]

It will probably be better than Avengers 1 and better than Cap 2.

That's a hell of a tall order, but that's the double edged angle to making great movies.

 

[DA_Champion]

That's a hell of a tall order, but that's the double edged angle to making great movies.

It's not that tall an order in my opinion.

1) The Avengers was a very safe, vanilla script by Joss Whedon standards. I expect him to loosen up a little in the sequel. We might get some meat this time;
2) They've also changed the cinematographer which should help with one of the failings of the first movie;
3) Whedon has an extended track record of succeeding the second time around. Each of Buffy, Angel, and Dollhouse had better season 2's than season 1's;

Out of the CBMs currently in production, I'd rank Avengers 2 as the most likely to be "awesome".

 

[Bim]

TWS gets my vote. The movie had me hooked from start to finish. I didnt find a dull moment. With TDK i get disconnected at certain parts of the movie, so as a whole it falls apart a little bit for me.

 

[Tony Stark]

1) If Hydra is so quintessential they should build it up properly, rather than just present it in a manner that doesn't make sense and expect everybody to care. The Joker for example was not "shoehorned" into TDK, though you're right that LoS/Talia were shoehorned into TDKR. That's part of why the latter is a lesser movie, closer to Cap 2 than to TDK.
2) ~99% of Cap 2 viewers don't read Cap comics. They're irrelevant to the discussion, because we're discussing these movies as movies, not whether or not they're faithful to the comics.
3) This article from the Washington Post elaborates on my principle critique of CA:TWS, that the shoehorning of Hydra onto the plot has the effect of totally undermining the political message of the film, and replacing it with American patriotic jingoism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...n-america-the-winter-soldier-gets-very-wrong/

At some point you have to expect that the viewers have watched the previous film when doing a sequel. Even TDK suffers from this as they don't give much of an explanation for where Wayne manor is or who Rachel Dawes is.

 

[kguillou]

It's not that tall an order in my opinion.

1) The Avengers was a very safe, vanilla script by Joss Whedon standards. I expect him to loosen up a little in the sequel. We might get some meat this time;
2) They've also changed the cinematographer which should help with one of the failings of the first movie;
3) Whedon has an extended track record of succeeding the second time around. Each of Buffy, Angel, and Dollhouse had better season 2's than season 1's;

Out of the CBMs currently in production, I'd rank Avengers 2 as the most likely to be "awesome".

You know its funny, for the longest time, there was something about the visual look of the movie that bothered me but I couldn't put my finger on it. Much later I realized that its because the movie essentially looks like a bigger budget television show. Now, I'm not trying to knock the movie but for a film like that I think it would have looked alot better with a more traditional movie visual filter (like Thor 1's or Ironman 1's for example).

 

[Space Ghost]

I wonder how long we will have to wait for a movie that can actually compete with TDK.

 

[Hammer!]

I think Thor 1 had the most unique, and inventive cinematography from any MCU film to date. Dutch angle shots on earth, correlation of pans between Asgard and Puente Antiguo, bird eye in Heimdall's observatory, the opening prologue's tilted reveal of Asgard, Loki's hologram against Thor when falling off the bridge ( 9/10 directors would have made a cut in the sequence somewhere between the deceptive reveal and Loki stabbing Thor).

Loved how unconventional that film was shot.

 

[Son of Coul]

Both are great, but TWS takes it for being much more engaging on a character/tone level for me. While Joker, Dent, and Gordon are great in TDK, in TWS I actually feel engaged in the protagonist and can relate to him; which I can't say the same for in the former. Both have really nice ensembles with great little "hell yeah" character beats for each though.

Also, the writing for TWS also feels like I'm constantly being propelled forward in the story at a steady pace, whether through plot or (more importantly) character arcs, whereas there are a few parts in TDK where it moves things forward but is unnecessarily convoluted, such as the Hong Kong scene, which could have easily been written out to trim the fat (though in IMAX it makes for a nice showstopper). And as a bonus, it's safe to say the action in TWS is loads more well-executed and intense. So yeah, that's where I'm at.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

TDK is on an entirely different level that it's not even funny. Does anyone honestly think TWS is worth an Oscar nomination or that it even has an Oscar worthy performance? TDK had that, TWS doesn't.

 

[Space Ghost]

TDK is on an entirely different level that it's not even funny. Does anyone honestly think TWS is worth an Oscar nomination or that it even has an Oscar worthy performance? TDK had that, TWS doesn't.

We even have people who think Spider-Man 3 is better than TDK. Gotta respect everyone´s opinions. It´s all very subjective. But i agree with you. TDK is a totally different animal.

 

[Hammer!]

TDK is on an entirely different level that it's not even funny. Does anyone honestly think TWS is worth an Oscar nomination or that it even has an Oscar worthy performance? TDK had that, TWS doesn't.

No other CBM has had that though... Are you saying that TDK is in a league of its own? I think TDK is the best CBM to date but I wouldn't say an oscar winning performance for best supporting actor is indicative that TDK is head and shoulders better than some of the genre's other greats.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I will never understand why new movies get directly compared with older movies. Wait a while before comparing. TDK has stood the test of nearly 6 years of scrutiny. Cap hasn't. Maybe a few years down the road we can do a better comparison.

 

[Space Ghost]

No other CBM has had that though... Are you saying that TDK is in a league of its own? I think TDK is the best CBM to date but I wouldn't say an oscar winning performance for best supporting actor is indicative that TDK is head and shoulders better than some of the genre's other greats.

It´s in a league of its one. Not only in quality but in nature too. It feels very different from everything else.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

We even have people who think Spider-Man 3 is better than TDK. Gotta respect everyone´s opinions. It´s all very subjective. But i agree with you. TDK is a totally different animal.

I have movies that I love, but I don't even think they are Oscar worthy. If people think TWS is Oscar worthy, then they really need to rethink things. Same with those who thought TDKR was Oscar worthy.

No other CBM has had that though... Are you saying that TDK is in a league of its own? I think TDK is the best CBM to date but I wouldn't say an oscar winning performance for best supporting actor is indicative that TDK is head and shoulders better than some of the genre's other greats.

The fact that critics and basically everyone compares a new CBM to TDK, yes, TDK is in a league of it's own. Do you think TWS will be the new comparison film? It's my favorite CBM, second and third tied with The Avengers and Watchmen. TDK did things that will be hard to compare. I wonder if another CBM can get a high grade Oscar nomination.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

No other CBM has had that though... Are you saying that TDK is in a league of its own? I think TDK is the best CBM to date but I wouldn't say an oscar winning performance for best supporting actor is indicative that TDK is head and shoulders better than some of the genre's other greats.

Without Heath Ledger, TDK would be no better than The Dark Knight Rises.

It's Ledger's performance that elevates the film to iconic greatness.

 

[Space Ghost]

Without Heath Ledger, TDK would be no better than The Dark Knight Rises.

It's Ledger's performance that elevates the film to iconic greatness.

Yeah, without Ledger TDK would be a different film. A film we didn´t watch, and because of that we can´t judge.

 

[Hammer!]

Without Heath Ledger, TDK would be no better than The Dark Knight Rises.

It's Ledger's performance that elevates the film to iconic greatness.

Without Ledger TDK would still be a far superior film than Rises. Take out Ledger, ruin the characterization of Bruce Wayne, remove the passion Nolan had for making the film, include numerous logical fallacies, and have a finale that unnerves the film's primary antagonist...than maybe we're getting into TDKR territory.

 

[Space Ghost]

Without Ledger TDK would still be a far superior film than Rises. Take out Ledger, ruin the characterization of Bruce Wayne, remove the passion Nolan had for making the film, include numerous logical fallacies, and have a finale that unnerves the film's primary antagonist...than maybe we're getting into TDKR territory.

TDKR was still a more thrilling experience for me than Captain America.

 

[Hammer!]

I have movies that I love, but I don't even think they are Oscar worthy. If people think TWS is Oscar worthy, then they really need to rethink things. Same with those who thought TDKR was Oscar worthy.



The fact that critics and basically everyone compares a new CBM to TDK, yes, TDK is in a league of it's own. Do you think TWS will be the new comparison film? It's my favorite CBM, second and third tied with The Avengers and Watchmen. TDK did things that will be hard to compare. I wonder if another CBM can get a high grade Oscar nomination.

I think it's lazy to compare every CBM to TDK considering the influx of these films we've seen since then, but it is indeed a testament to how great a film it is. Can we every see a movie of this kind win one of the crown jewel oscars? I think it's definitely a possibility, but only when the members of the Academy die out and give rise to younger generations who grew up on these films. Even then they almost would certainly be anomalies. I'm optimistic!

 

[Raiden]

TDKR was still a more thrilling experience for me than Captain America.

TDKR is probably one of the most disappointing movies I've ever seen, because of the high expectation I had after TDK, and I think Nolan tried but failed on the story aspect of the movie.

 

[Space Ghost]

TDKR is probably one of the most disappointing movies I've ever seen, because of the high expectation I had after TDK, and I think Nolan tried but failed on the story aspect of the movie.

It would be a fallacy to say Nolan failed with any of his Batman movies, regardless of you liking them or not.

TDKR had some flaws. But i prefer a movie with some flaws to a movie that has nothing special going on for it besides the choreography.

TDKR has a more interesting story overall. It´s way easier to be invested in Bruce´s journey than Steve´s, given the context of the movie and what came before.

TDKR is less predictable. Halfway through Captain America i already knew how the movie was going to end. No thrill in it at all.

TDKR has better cinematic moments.

TDKR had a much better villion

TDKR had a MUCH better score

TDKR had stronger characters overall.

Honestly, even if you consider TDKR the worst of the trilogy, i can still come up with over a dozen reasons for it to be a more interesting film.

Captain America is pretty generic and straight forward. It lacks real memorable moments. And it´s easier less emotional.

TWS is less controversial and benefits from it. But that´s mainly because it doesn´t try to be anything other than a typical Marvel movie. It uses a pretty safe formula and makes sure nobody leaves pissed off. It´s way lighter, wich to some people equals to being a better movie.

TWS has less things to criticize, but also less things to remember.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

TDKR has stupid things in it that the previous films didn't have, it feels kinda odd. For example, every character in TDK pretty much has a central purpose, whereas there are like 3 characters in TDKR that have no real development and they can be removed from the film without changing too much.

 

[Son of Coul]

It would be a fallacy to say Nolan failed with any of his Batman movies, regardless of you liking them or not.

...What? Surely you understand how absurd that statement is, regardless of what movie is the subject of it.

 

[Space Ghost]

TDKR has stupid things in it that the previous films didn't have, it feels kinda odd. For example, every character in TDK pretty much has a central purpose, whereas there are like 3 characters in TDKR that have no real development and they can be removed from the film without changing too much.

You can remove Black Widow from Captain America.