TDK vs CA: TWS

[redfirebird2008]

Without Heath Ledger, TDK would be no better than The Dark Knight Rises.

It's Ledger's performance that elevates the film to iconic greatness.

The ending is pretty damn incredible and Ledger isn't even in that part of the film. One of the best endings ever.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

You can remove Black Widow from Captain America.

I disagree with that completely. You can remove Agent 13 though.

 

[Space Ghost]

...What? Surely you understand how absurd that statement is, regardless of what movie is the subject of it.

How can a movie fail when it achieves its main goals? I think a movie fails when it either doesn´t make money or receives bad reviews overall. How can a movie be critically and financially successful and still fail?

"Hey, you know what? Our movie broke records, made over 1 billion dollars and most people loved it. But you know what? We failed. Our movie sucks, despite the great critics "

Yeah, pal, you make a lot of sense.

 

[Flint Marko]

How can a movie fail when it achieves its main goals? I think a movie fails when it either doesn´t make money or receives bad reviews overall. How can a movie be critically and financially successful and still fail?

"Hey, you know what? Our movie broke records, made over 1 billion dollars and most people loved it. But you know what? We failed. Our movie sucks, despite the great critics "

Yeah, pal, you make a lot of sense.

This from the guy that hails MoS as heads and shoulders above most Marvel films.

 

[Son of Coul]

How can a movie fail when it achieves its main goals? I think a movie fails when it either doesn´t make money or receives bad reviews overall. How can a movie be critically and financially successful and still fail?

"Hey, you know what? Our movie broke records, made over 1 billion dollars and most people loved it. But you know what? We failed. Our movie sucks, despite the great critics "

Yeah, pal, you make a lot of sense.

Because it's an opinion whether the movie does what it sets out to on a person-by-person basis. Just because it sets out to entertain people and accomplishes it with a solid portion of its audience doesn't mean it can't fail to entertain another.

Would you say that the Transformers movies succeed what they set out to do because they make bank and sell toys? While that's their primary goal, the point of those on a movie level is to create a big, visceral, funny action movie to get its audience psyched up for a shut-your-brain-off afternoon. I do not have fun watching those movies at all, as the gags and action both flatline for me - so in my opinion they fail what they set out to do. Since they succeed in entertaining others and make money, does that mean there's therefore something wrong with me instead? I hope not.

 

[Hammer!]

I could talk endless hours how much I hate that film and how I found it to be the worst film a director as talented as Nolan could ever make, but I'm sorry I even elaborated on it. I don't want the next five pages to be dedicated to how I'm 'wrong'.

 

[Hammer!]

The ending is pretty damn incredible and Ledger isn't even in that part of the film. One of the best endings ever.

Totally agree. Batman running away from the law. That's how TDK movies end for me. Much better end point for the Bruce Wayne character.

For the record, I LOVED BB and TDK and Batman was my absolute favorite comicbook hero before the release of TDKR.

 

[Space Ghost]

Because it's an opinion whether the movie does what it sets out to on a person-by-person basis. Just because it sets out to entertain people and accomplishes it with a solid portion of its audience doesn't mean it can't fail to entertain another.

By your logic all movies in the history have failed, right? No movie entertains 100% of its audience. I don´t care what you say, that simply doesn´t happen.

You can say a movie failed to entertain YOU! But are we talking about your personal situation or about the movie´s overall success?

Would you say that the Transformers movies succeed what they set out to do because they make bank and sell toys?

Are those movies critically acclaimed? No! They actually have a very weak reputation. So, i´d say they were successful from a financial stand point, but not from an artistic stand point.

The three Batman movies were successful on all levels. This is not an opinion. This is a fact. And i know it is a fact that bothers some people, but they´re gonna have to deal with it.


I love how MOS haters bring up its bad rating on RT. They feel that backs them up: "See, see? It´s not just my opinion, it´s most critics opinion. The movie really failed, and here is the proof".

Lol. I´m pretty sure they would love to be able to do the same with TDK trilogy, but they can´t, so they simply ignore the facts.

 

[redfirebird2008]

For the record, I LOVED BB and TDK and Batman was my absolute favorite comicbook hero before the release of TDKR.

So a movie ruined your perception of a comic book character? This does not make sense. I mean it is still a comic book character first and foremost. t:

 

[Flint Marko]

I love how MOS haters bring up its bad rating on RT. They feel that backs them up: "See, see? It´s not just my opinion, it´s most critics opinion. The movie really failed, and here is the proof".

Lol. I´m pretty sure they would love to be able to do the same with TDK trilogy, but they can´t, so they simply ignore the facts.

Now you're lumping in people who hated MoS with people who didn't like TDKT?
I thought MoS was awful and easily rate TDK as the best comic book movie of all time. Overall I really like the Nolan movies, save for a few problems with the last one.
I don't dislike WB/DC movies as a rule (anyone who dislikes all movies from a studio is close minded and ignorant), I just dislike movies when they're bad. People point to MoS bad reception from critics to show that it was, in fact, a failure even by your own standards. I love how you continually choose to ignore that.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The ending is pretty damn incredible and Ledger isn't even in that part of the film. One of the best endings ever.

I'd say movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Matrix had great endings.

What was so great about Batman killing Two Face then running from the police?

 

[redfirebird2008]

MOS is about as average as it gets.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I'd say movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Matrix had great endings.

What was so great about Batman killing Two Face then running from the police?

I dunno, maybe it was the conversation between Two-Face, Gordon, and Batman that built up to it. Maybe it was Gordon's speech as Batman rode off. Millions of other people agree with me that it was a hell of an ending.

 

[Space Ghost]

Now you're lumping in people who hated MoS with people who didn't like TDKT?
I thought MoS was awful and easily rate TDK as the best comic book movie of all time. Overall I really like the Nolan movies, save for a few problems with the last one.
I don't dislike WB/DC movies as a rule (anyone who dislikes all movies from a studio is close minded and ignorant), I just dislike movies when they're bad. People point to MoS bad reception from critics to show that it was, in fact, a failure even by your own standards. I love how you continually choose to ignore that.

I know for a fact that some people who disliked MOS also disliked TDKR, and some of those people like to bring up RT´s ratings when it fits them, hence my comment. I bet they would love to be able to do the same with the Batman movies they don´t like.

We´re not even discussing personal opinions. We´re discussing the success of a movie.

 

[Space Ghost]

I'd say movies like Empire Strikes Back, Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Matrix had great endings.

What was so great about Batman killing Two Face then running from the police?

It´s everything. The message, Batman´s speech, Gordon´s speech, Alfred burning the letter, the score, everything. It´s a different kind of ending and a very powerful one.

Because he is the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now!

So we´ll hunt him!

TUM TUM TUM

BECAUSE HE CAN TAKE IT

BECAUSE HE IS NOT OUR HERO. HE IS A SILENT GUARDIAN, A WATCHFUL PROTECTOR, A DARK KNIGHT.

And then the music: TUM TUM TUM

And then Batman running

And then goosebumps

And then haters

And then me not caring about them

TUM TUM TUM!

Then i come to this forum and say TDK is the greatest CBM ever, and Marvel fans don´t agree with me, and i laugh.

It´s all good.

 

[Hammer!]

Yup that's the great conclusion to Nolan's Bat films. Perfect ending for the character.

 

[Hammer!]

Things TWS has or does better than TDK:

Fight choreography
Evans over Bale
Supporting Cast (non villains)
Humor
African American and Female characters
Special Effects
Faithfulness to the source material

I missing any?

 

[Space Ghost]

- Why are they voting against the TDK, dad?

- Because that´s what needs to happen. Because sometimes truth isn´t good enough. So they´ll hate it. Because they can´t take it.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Special Effects

No way on that one. Obvious CGI in CA2. Not so much in TDK, which is a credit to the VFX department and Nolan's restraint for not relying on CGI too much.

 

[Space Ghost]

Things TWS has or does better than TDK:

Fight choreography
Evans over Bale
Supporting Cast (non villains)
Humor
African American and Female characters
Special Effects
Faithfulness to the source material

I missing any?

Evans is better than Bale in the Bizarro World.

 

[Son of Coul]

By your logic all movies in the history have failed, right? No movie entertains 100% of its audience. I don´t care what you say, that simply doesn´t happen.

You can say a movie failed to entertain YOU! But are we talking about your personal situation or about the movie´s overall success?

Isn't the whole point that someone said the movie failed on a story level? That's down to one's personal opinion - so yeah... it becomes inherently one's personal situation. If this began with someone saying it failed universally on a critical and financial level, then I'll withdraw I guess. But that's definitely not how I interpreted this:

TDKR is probably one of the most disappointing movies I've ever seen, because of the high expectation I had after TDK, and I think Nolan tried but failed on the story aspect of the movie.

No amount of BO numbers changes the fact that it didn't work for him.

 

[Tony Stark]

Things TWS has or does better than TDK:

Fight choreography
Evans over Bale
Supporting Cast (non villains)
Humor
African American and Female characters
Special Effects
Faithfulness to the source material

I missing any?

The fact that TWS was about Captain America, and TDK, Batman was a secondary character.

 

[Space Ghost]

Isn't the whole point that someone said the movie failed on a story level? That's down to one's personal opinion - so yeah... it becomes inherently one's personal situation. If this began with someone saying it failed universally on a critical and financial level, then I'll withdraw I guess. But that's definitely not how I interpreted this:

A lot of people act like it simply failed, period.

I don´t understand. A movie with almost 3 hours fails in terms of story and yet people are hooked to it and give it a very high rating? So what were they watching that was so amazing? Bale´s hair? Catwoman´s ass? How can you sit through an almost 3 hour long film with a story that fails and still love it?

You´re still not making sense.

 

[Space Ghost]

The fact that TWS was about Captain America, and TDK, Batman was a secondary character.

With a character as dull as Captain America played by an average actor i wish the movie had been about someone else. Lol.

 

[redfirebird2008]

The fact that TWS was about Captain America, and TDK, Batman was a secondary character.

I dunno about that comparison. I can think of a lot better examples of protagonist focused superhero movies than CA2. HYDRA and SHIELD hijack quite a bit of the runtime. Hell, I'd say CA1 was a lot more focused on Cap just like BB was a lot more focused on Bats. But I guess origin stories tend to be that way.