Terminator: Genisys - Part 8

[DA_Champion]

Da Champion he HAS to send Kyle back to exist and he can't tell Kyle he is going to die, he can't give away how important Kyle is in the scheme of things otherwise he could jeopardise his whole existence.

Then later on he is ok killing Kyle before he's mated with Sarah.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Then later on he is ok killing Kyle before he's mated with Sarah.

Well yeah that's because just after sending Kyle back he gets turned into an evil robot? This was all shown in the story. Once Skynet attacks John everything changes including the timeline, but Kyle had already been sent back at this point.

 

[DA_Champion]

The robotprobes change his morality ...as well as his logical reasoning? Yeah maybe.

As for being already sent back ... 2029 Kyle has already arrived forward.

There is not one consistent interpretation of time travel in this movie. The laws of time travel seem to continuously change throughout the film.

By far the worst was Arnold saying Reese got special memories due to magnetic quantum field propagation from significant events in the timeline ... or something like that.

 

[Jay Beezy]

Someone commented on this matter from another site.

It was better with T1 when the timeline, while paradoxical, was self-contained in its own causality loop.

If you require alternate universes to justify certain time travel events, you diminish the narrative stakes.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I

The robotprobes change his morality ...as well as his logical reasoning? Yeah maybe.

As for being already sent back ... 2029 Kyle has already arrived forward.

There is not one consistent interpretation of time travel in this movie. The laws of time travel seem to continuously change throughout the film.

By far the worst was Arnold saying Reese got special memories due to magnetic quantum field propagation from significant events in the timeline ... or something like that.

Well yeah, when he arrived in 2017 he was a Terminator, controlled by Skynet, Kyle and Sarah were trying to destroy Skynet, so he was trying to stop them. This was all explained in the movie, he wasn't John Connor anymore he was a Terminator when he arrived in 2017.

Kyle's memories were explained in the movie as well, once Skynet took over John it knew everything, judgement day was delayed to 2017 so Kyle was born before the war rather than after it, hence the new memories of a normal world.

 

[Jay Beezy]

I

Well yeah, when he arrived in 2017 he was a Terminator, controlled by Skynet, Kyle and Sarah were trying to destroy Skynet, so he was trying to stop them. This was all explained in the movie, he wasn't John Connor anymore he was a Terminator when he arrived in 2017.

Kyle's memories were explained in the movie as well, once Skynet took over John it knew everything, judgement day was delayed to 2017 so Kyle was born before the war rather than after it, hence the new memories of a normal world.

But John Connor still needs to exist in the first place to become the Connornator. If Kyle and Sarah travel to 2017 without having done the deed, Terminator Connor would not be there.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But John Connor still needs to exist in the first place to become the Connornator. If Kyle and Sarah travel to 2017 without having done the deed, Terminator Connor would not be there.

Not necessarily, who knows what would happen if he killed Reece? He may not disappear as John Connor died in the future in the time displacement room so has been dead for a long time. Time travel is not an exact science so we don't know what would happen.

 

[Jay Beezy]

Not necessarily, who knows what would happen if he killed Reece? He may not disappear as John Connor died in the future in the time displacement room so has been dead for a long time. Time travel is not an exact science so we don't know what would happen.

The T-3000 has John's memories. Those wouldn't exist without John himself.

On top of that, if Skynet is so desperate erase John from existence, why doesn't Alpha Terminator-Doctor Smith kill Kyle Reese before he gets sent through the time displacement machine? Why do they need John to be its T-3000?

Instead of shooting them in the head, they slowly lower them into a closed tank of mutated sea bass.

 

[Loki882]

Time travel in films, and this franchise is no exception, is always headache-inducing if you think about it to any real extent. This film just makes it all the more confusing with multiple/alternate timelines, jumping back and forth, etc. Sometimes less is more. Also:

Spoiler

since when can they travel FORWARD in time? That was never established in the previous films.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The T-3000 has John's memories. Those wouldn't exist without John himself.

On top of that, if Skynet is so desperate erase John from existence, why doesn't Alpha Terminator-Doctor Smith kill Kyle Reese before he gets sent through the time displacement machine? Why do they need John to be its T-3000?

Instead of shooting them in the head, they slowly lower them into a closed tank of mutated sea bass.

Again this was all in the movie, Skynet needed to take over John so they could find out the dates Kyle arrived and where Sarah was when she was young. To do all this they needed Kyle to go back so John could be created and Sarah could tell him all that happens to lead John to the time displacement unit so Skynet could spring it's trap while John was vulnerable. Every previous plan failed so they tried something new.

Once John became a machine he had the memories but he wasn't John anymore he was a pawn for Skynet, hence him trying to launch Judgement Day and kill half of humanity.

 

[Jay Beezy]

Again this was all in the movie, Skynet needed to take over John so they could find out the dates Kyle arrived and where Sarah was when she was young. To do all this they needed Kyle to go back so John could be created and Sarah could tell him all that happens to lead John to the time displacement unit so Skynet could spring it's trap while John was vulnerable. Every previous plan failed so they tried something new.

Once John became a machine he had the memories but he wasn't John anymore he was a pawn for Skynet, hence him trying to launch Judgement Day and kill half of humanity.

And yet they never consider they had the perfect opportunity to erase John's existence: when the Alpha Terminator-Doctor Smith is in the time displacement room with Kyle. Alpha Terminator kills Kyle before he's sent back in time to impregnate Sarah, John's existence is erased, and they ultimately don't need to find out when Kyle is sent back to.

Like I said, instead of shooting them in the head, they slowly lower them into a closed tank of mutated sea bass.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

And yet they never consider they had the perfect opportunity to erase John's existence: when the Alpha Terminator-Doctor Smith is in the time displacement room with Kyle. Alpha Terminator kills Kyle before he's sent back in time to impregnate Sarah, John's existence is erased, and they ultimately don't need to find out when Kyle is sent back to.

Like I said, instead of shooting them in the head, they slowly lower them into a closed tank of mutated sea bass.

The humans had already won at that point though, this was stated in T1 by Kyle, the humans getting to the time displacement unit is when they win,, it's stated in TG by John Connor as well. Kyle even says in the first movie "Taking out Connor then would have made no difference." So Skynet came up with a new plan, take over JC so then they find out everything which had been giving the humans an advantage so far.

 

[Jay Beezy]

The humans had already won at that point though, this was stated in T1 by Kyle, the humans getting to the time displacement unit is when they win,, it's stated in TG by John Connor as well. Kyle even says in the first movie "Taking out Connor then would have made no difference." So Skynet came up with a new plan, take over JC so then they find out everything which had been giving the humans an advantage so far.

I feel like I need to talk like a 7-year-old.

Kill Kyle before he goes back in time. You have the Alpha Terminator right there to do it. That would erase Connor's entire existence and the formation of the Resistance.

What do you think I've been saying this whole time?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

You

I feel like I need to talk like a 7-year-old.

Kill Kyle before he goes back in time. You have the Alpha Terminator right there to do it. That would erase Connor's entire existence and the formation of the Resistance.

What do you think I've been saying this whole time?

Great way to have a discussion by insulting people, I know exactly what you are saying.

What guarantee is there that killing Kyle will erase John at that point though? Essentially Kyle has already gone back and created John because he is there at that point and the humans have still won. You are speaking in absolutes when there is no such thing where time travel is concerned because its not a real thing.

Skynet thinks that by taking over John they can entirely prevent all of this happening because they can send a Terminator back to kill Sarah and use John to ensure Judgement Day happens which is a new strategy from Skynet and one they think cant be stopped. BUT, someone sent Pops back, thats the only hole really, who sent him back to stop Sarah being killing and give the humans a chance still? Its being deliberately saved for a sequel though.

 

[doobie]

I really liked Clarke as pre-evil Connor and thought that he was the best adult John in the series. Stahl seemed like a friendly junkie, and I'm a huge Bale fan but I think he phoned in his John. I was really wishing that they would find a way to cure him or wipe his transformation from history.

Although I think a lot of objections people are complaining are unfair, I did think it was dumb that they didn't really explain why a child would want genysis for a present - a line that it had good exclusive video games on it or something would have explained...

 

[Jay Beezy]

Great way to have a discussion by insulting people, I know exactly what you are saying.

What guarantee is there that killing Kyle will erase John at that point though? Essentially Kyle has already gone back and created John because he is there at that point and the humans have still won. You are speaking in absolutes when there is no such thing where time travel is concerned because its not a real thing.

Skynet thinks that by taking over John they can entirely prevent all of this happening because they can send a Terminator back to kill Sarah and use John to ensure Judgement Day happens which is a new strategy from Skynet and one they think cant be stopped. BUT, someone sent Pops back, thats the only hole really, who sent him back to stop Sarah being killing and give the humans a chance still? Its being deliberately saved for a sequel though.

So instead of assuming that killing Kyle before he's sent back will erase John from existence, they're just gonna assume that, as you stated a few posts ago, Kyle being sent back in time will create John, despite the altered timeline, and John will be available to be turned into a T-3000. Explain how that's more logical.

And why do they still send the bad T-800 back in time if they now need John?

This movie clearly sunk under the weight of time travel science it doesn't understand.

And saving answers to big questions for a sequel is a lazy creative decision.

 

[Mysteryman]

John was willing to kill his parents because he thought that it would merely lead to a branching timeline instead of erasing his existence .
The same thing probably would have happened if The Alpha terminator had killed Kyle.

 

[Loki882]

That's a pretty big assumption/leap to make. Risking it if you're not 100% sure is kind of stupid (but then again Skynet has been kind of stupid with their plans in the last TWO movies now).

 

[DA_Champion]

Someone commented on this matter from another site.

It was better with T1 when the timeline, while paradoxical, was self-contained in its own causality loop.

If you require alternate universes to justify certain time travel events, you diminish the narrative stakes.

Causality loops are not paradoxical.

 

[DA_Champion]

I think Genysis has the highest concentration of nonsense in any blockbuster I have seen in a very long time.

 

[phillyboy]

Fact of the matter- if Kyle & Sarah don't mate, John won't be born. This is fact. Cavemen discovered this. You don't need to be a scientist. If you want to rely on the alternate timelines/ realities answer, then fine- but that is nothing more than pure laziness on the writers behalf.

They didn't mate. Even if they did, John still wouldn't have been born. Sarah knew too much. For John to be born, they would've had to have done the deed in 1984 at the exact same moment as in the original timeline- right down to the millisecond, so that the same individual sperm could reach Sarah's egg.

This movie was just lazy. The first 2 movies created a simple time paradox with just the right amount of 'wtf' & 'in theory, that could happen'. The rules / concept of time travel has been flushed down the toilet now. Nothing to stop from sending a robot dinosaur terminator from Mars back in time, why? Oh yeah, alternate realities.

 

[Mr.T]

Skynet can't kill John. If John isn't created, then the terminator never gets sent back in time, destroyed by Sarah & Reese in the factory, and then have its parts used for research that creates Skynet. If we're talking a single timeline, John is the reason Skynet exists. TG talked about the timeline splitting at an important event. It must have split multiple times for so many different T-Xxx's to be sent back in time to kill one of the Connors. Yet John always creates the resistance and Skynet is always defeated. Doesn't that still point to a single timeline?

 

[doobie]

What if the T1 terminator's plan was originally to kill Sarah and then deliver himself to the Dyson family for research. So that skynet gets built even faster. With inbuilt information that in this new timeline with no John, skynet still has to send terminators back to the 80s with information for Dyson, so there is no timeline where skynet is not invented.

When you think, though, it's the whole sending of the terminator back that made John the warrior he was. If they never sent a terminator back, John would have grown up without knowledge of terminators, and not become the prophet. Even without Kyle. Which I know is obvious.

Someone I knew had a funny theory that..in the original timeline, Sarah never met Kyle and fathered John with a regular husband or whatever, but sending Kyle back actually created a new crappy John Connor, who wasn't the original saviour. It's a funny theory, but it doesn't hold because, original Kyle already had a picture of tough Sarah in mexico, so the T1 timeline had already happened.

 

[doobie]

They didn't mate. Even if they did, John still wouldn't have been born. Sarah knew too much. For John to be born, they would've had to have done the deed in 1984 at the exact same moment as in the original timeline- right down to the millisecond, so that the same individual sperm could reach Sarah's egg.

Back to the Future has the same problem though. George Mcfly grows older as a new assertive person, yet he buys the same house, has the exact same looking kids at the same time. Wasn't there some dialogue in Genysis that certain events are destined? I was thinking it over while watching the move. Maybe we have to accept that the particular ejaculation Reese has inside him at the time is always destined to create a male prophet, whatever the exact time of love. But who is to say that this new couple - without the same danger and loneliness - will have sex at the same time, before he has a wet dream etc?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Skynet can't kill John. If John isn't created, then the terminator never gets sent back in time, destroyed by Sarah & Reese in the factory, and then have its parts used for research that creates Skynet. If we're talking a single timeline, John is the reason Skynet exists. TG talked about the timeline splitting at an important event. It must have split multiple times for so many different T-Xxx's to be sent back in time to kill one of the Connors. Yet John always creates the resistance and Skynet is always defeated. Doesn't that still point to a single timeline?

Jay Beezy the above explains my point more.

Exactamundo, that's why Skynet waited for the T-800 and Kyle to be sent back to spring its trap and take over John, it needs John to grow up with the memories he has and it needs the T-800's chip in 1984 so it can be created. This is all in the movie as well as the previous ones.