The Last Jedi TFA vs TLJ

TFA vs TLJ

  • TFA

  • TLJ


Results are only viewable after voting.
TFA new worlds featured
Jakku
Takodana
D'Qar
Starkiller Base
Ahch-To
(unnamed force vision planet with Luke)
(unnamed force vision planet with The Knights of Ren)

TLJ new worlds featured
Cantonica
Crait

Winner: The Force Awakens

I think Rogue One had more new ones featured, too.
 
TFA. It made me excited for Star Wars again. Sure it's not perfect, but TLJ has squashed that excitement and interest in the next film right now. The more I reflect on TLJ, the more I hate it.
 
For me, it's because the Space Chase plotline has the most inadequate writing of the film. It's not quite like there's one massive plot hole in the thing, but it is like there's a lot of medium sized issues that compile to make it the most juvenile plotting in the film, even more than the still sloppy and chopped down Finn plot. I'm not going to attack the physics of the chase, since Star Wars has never incorporated actual physics laws well enough to really get angry at laser's that fall off after a certain distance or perplexing speed and acceleration questions.

To start off, the Space Chase involves a few large issues that I subjectively disagree with and find to act against its dramatic purpose. First off, it's strictly a one dimensional, comparatively slow speed chase; there's no jukes, no turns, nothing to make it visually interesting. Second, the film wants this tense chase scene to both be tense and yet long enough to encompass the timeline of the film; an 18 hour straight line chase, one long enough for multiple parties to drop out and drop back in, lacks the intesity *you* found in it for myself and others. And since the bombardment of the Raddus is rendered ineffective by the distance between the ships, we don't have the feeling of them being worn down like they did in the Battlestar episode where they're constantly having to fight and repair their ship.

Those first two are largely subjective, but the third is where you enter possible plot hole territory: the lack of reasoning for why the chase even continues.

Why no TIEs?
The film tries to say that the Raddus and its fleet can escape capital ship bombardment and thus the TIE fighters must withdraw... But there were only three TIE Fighters deployed, including Kylo's, and the two SF TIEs were the ones that cracked open the bridge of the Raddus like a bad egg. And we know that regular Star Destroyers carry plenty fo thane SF TIES from TFA, so why aren't they being deployed en masse? And since we just exited a space battle that demonstrated how capital ship weaponry is not guaranteed at all to destroy multiple fighters, so even the perfunctory shot of Kylo's wingmen getting blown up feels negligible. So there's really no good reason why this film's First Order, depicted as far more Empire-like in its overwhelming resources than it was in TFA, doesn't just swarm the fleet with TIEs, especially since there's no fighter cover for the Resistance.

And all that's being generous and not finding it stupid that the FO doesn't have medium-sized support craft.

Head them off at the pass!
The film never provides an adequate explanation for why no Star Destroyers just hyperspace in front of the Raddus, either just immediately in a straight line, or after withdrawing to another system, then dropping right in front of them. We know you can get that specific, both in the trilogy from Han's landing on Starkiller Base and from this very movie; both Finn and Rey pilot their respective vehicles (the Libertine and the Millennium Falcon) through hyperspace and right to the Supremacy. Clearly, you can immediately catch up to the Raddus. There's nothing stopping you.

The only logical explanation I've heard for both of these issues is that Hux really is a dumb@$$, and not even a usual one like you'd see on Rebels; he's somehow even less logical than their comedic characters. And that significantly lowers any threat he or the First Order are supposed to have in this film, and glaringly contrasts with the Imperials in ESB and Hux himself in TFA.

How not to write Poe's plotline
Poe's plotline is already on shaky ground alongside Finn's; the idea of using two secondary plots to again hammer home the whole "failure is the best teacher" lesson is soaring towards redundancy, and towards face-playingly bad if you don't write them well. And they're not; the character at the center of the Raddus plot, Holdo, is written not as a character but as a trope device. When Johnson wants the audience in Poe's side and tricked into thinking that Finn will have something significant to do, he writes Holdo as your classic flawed Neidermeyer military officer; while an officer would have the right to refuse to give a recently demoted captain prove legend information, there's no damn good reason not to brief a stressed and worried crew about what the plan is, or at least to excuse why it's not shared. This is an officer who has a clear flaw in the land of fiction; that's why the audience turns on her at first. Then, suddenly, when Johnson wants to try springing his trap on you, he suddenly shifts gears and tries to write Holdo as the righteous authority figure; she spouts out some oxymoronic fortune cookie line about how Hope is best when it unknown, and suddenly is portrayed as in the right the whole time. We skip past the fact she clearly has actual flaws that even some real world military personnel would find serious; there is a moral and political element to command, and shushing people and sending them back to their stations before staring out a window is not going to meet that element.

But this is then exacerbated because the other twist Johnson tries to pull to reveal what plan Holdo and Leia have and what makes it the "smart play" falls flat on its face upon any inspection, because it's colossally stupid. They've been pursued in a straight line for literally almost a whole day, and we find out they've been aiming towards a planet here, out in the vast emptiness of space. Any idiot in the First Order is going to presume that means they're heading to that planet. And any moderately imaginative officer is going to recommend leaving significant forces at Crait on that possibility, and just pursue the Raddus with a still overwhelming fleet. So already, the plan is on shaky ground, since it depends on the FO ignoring the planet. Second, the film's depiction of cloaking is wholly sensor based; there's no attempt to establish a visual component. So the plan also depends on no one in the First Order looking out the window. Maybe you want to argue that it's too far away for the naked eye, but there's these great things called cameras and telescopes, like the one Snoke has and uses in the film for that purpose. Oh, and it turns out the FO can literally hit a few buttons and uncover any cloaking attempts... So why the hell don't they just constantly run that?!?

And all this so we can teach Poe a lesson and render all of Finn's story pointless because of DJ hearing something, and wrap it up with a visually spectacular but perplexing use of a hyperspace ramming tactic (they had four heroic characters in guard the Supremacy at that time, and they couldn't use even one of them to set up why the Raddus could do this but others ships couldn't earlier?!?). It's a badly plotted conflict with a badly plotted resolution, and you could in all honesty skip over all of it (or go to the bathroom them, like I did) and miss nothing with worthwhile craftsmanship out side of the acting.

Sadly, this is all absolutely right.
 
That "chase" sequence was ridiculous on all levels. Reminds me of this from Seinfeld only way more crappier

handicap.gif
 
After seeing TLJ a 2nd time, I did enjoy it more. However I still have huge problems with some plot points, and the choices made with Luke’s arc.

People call TFA nostalgia reliant, but while it is, it got me to love the new characters of Rey, Finn, Poe and Kylo. TLJ failed in some aspects of furthering their story’s. So TFA wins for me, as I also preferred how TFA handled Han compared to how TLJ handled Luke.
 
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I'm not crazy about either of them, but if they had taken the strengths from both films, they could have one solid SW film imo.

In principle, I like TLJ ideas of taking chances and attempting to do something different but in practice, I wasn't crazy about the creative choices .

I liked the new characters from TFA but they were in a story which was an homage to ANH as opposed to doing something truly fresh.

My hope is that Episode 9 will have the spirit and energy of TFA while having doing something different like TLJ.
 
The Last Jedi is much better. I liked the Han/Kylo/Rey storyline in TFA, but the rest of it is just so paint-by-numbers and a rehash of ANH. Honestly, I even prefer ROTS. TLJ borrows some similar situations as well, but whereas TFA plays them completely the same way they were used previously, TLJ twists them and does something different. Yeah, Finn's stopover at Star Vegas sucked, but the rest of the film was far more exciting and gripping than TFA ever was.

I also much prefer how there were real consequences to what was happening. If ships were attacked, people died. There were stakes. It wasn't the Millennium Falcon bouncing off of things with no damage like it was a cartoon as was the case in TFA.

So yeah, I don't think it is even close.
 
I feel fans are never happy. They complain when TFA is too much in nostalgia/ANH was the type of Star Wars films we know and love so then TLJ does something new and different and goes beyond expectations and assumptions and gives the universe a new spin on things and fans still complain. Its the prequels all over again. People wanted more movies after ROTJ but they wanted it their way and only their way. Nothing was ever going to live up to their insane expectations.
 
The Last Jedi is much better. I liked the Han/Kylo/Rey storyline in TFA, but the rest of it is just so paint-by-numbers and a rehash of ANH. Honestly, I even prefer ROTS. TLJ borrows some similar situations as well, but whereas TFA plays them completely the same way they were used previously, TLJ twists them and does something different. Yeah, Finn's stopover at Star Vegas sucked, but the rest of the film was far more exciting and gripping than TFA ever was.

I also much prefer how there were real consequences to what was happening. If ships were attacked, people died. There were stakes. It wasn't the Millennium Falcon bouncing off of things with no damage like it was a cartoon as was the case in TFA.

So yeah, I don't think it is even close.

I agree with all of this :up:

Except I prefer TFA to ROTS, LOL!!! ROTS has some good moments, and then others are "Anakin, you're breaking my heart" type shlock. When it goes there, it is unwatchable. That and the visual style in TFA is superior because they actually had real things on the set. ROTS looks like a bad video with real people inserted in, and it looks awful.
 
I agree with all of this :up:

Except I prefer TFA to ROTS, LOL!!! ROTS has some good moments, and then others are "Anakin, you're breaking my heart" type shlock. When it goes there, it is unwatchable. That and the visual style in TFA is superior because they actually had real things on the set. ROTS looks like a bad video with real people inserted in, and it looks awful.

Padme dying of a broken heart is the only time something in Star Wars made me want throw something at the screen. And I watched the Holiday Special the night it aired.
 
Padme dying of a broken heart is the only time something in Star Wars made me want throw something at the screen. And I watched the Holiday Special the night it aired.

The movie throws so much bad at you so quickly. Awful Padme/Anakin scene on Mustafar, awful Padme death, Vader shouting "Noooooooooooooo!!!!!" It's just all so cringe-worthy and terrible. The whole ending of the movie is rushed, poor written, and doesn't even look good visually. Particularly the Vader part looks like a video game cut scene.
 
To be fair, I think Mustafar itself actually looked more stunning than anything in TFA. Great combo of miniature sets, actual volcano footage and CG all composited together. It really comes together beautifully. There are other sections of the movie where the amount of CG just makes it feel like animated movie, but Mustafar was one of the actual great visual achievements of the PT.
 
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To be fair, I think Mustafar itself actually looked more stunning than anything in TFA. Great combo of miniature sets, actual volcano footage and CG all composited together. It really comes together beautifully. There are other sections of the movie where the amount of CG just makes it feel like animated movie, but Mustafar was one of the actual great visual achievements of the PT.

But not always. Like when they are floating on those mechanical platforms in the lava, it just looks cartoony and fake. Same when they're doing the tight rope walking and crawling up that falling column. Parts of good, I will agree. Looks better than most of the rest of ROTS.
 
I feel fans are never happy. They complain when TFA is too much in nostalgia/ANH was the type of Star Wars films we know and love so then TLJ does something new and different and goes beyond expectations and assumptions and gives the universe a new spin on things and fans still complain. Its the prequels all over again. People wanted more movies after ROTJ but they wanted it their way and only their way. Nothing was ever going to live up to their insane expectations.

That seems like a very weird analysis. Just because you don't like something that repeats what has already been done doesn't mean that you have to like anything that does new things. It's not that people don't like new things being done, it's that they didn't like how it was done.

On top of that TLJ does still repeat both plot beats and direct scenes from the OT so it's still being guilty of what people disliked about TFA, it's just to a lesser extent.
 
I agree with all of this :up:

Except I prefer TFA to ROTS, LOL!!! ROTS has some good moments, and then others are "Anakin, you're breaking my heart" type shlock. When it goes there, it is unwatchable. That and the visual style in TFA is superior because they actually had real things on the set. ROTS looks like a bad video with real people inserted in, and it looks awful.

I don't disagree. But I think at its best ROTS is better and that it has a more compelling story than TFA does. There are parts of ROTS that I really like. TFA might be more competent in terms of not having as many facepalming moments, but it is also duller.
 
ROTS has a few good moments. A few. TFA may be too safe, but Lucas' version of taking risks was having Anakin murder a roomful of kids. It's tone deaf, gratuitous, and it did actual damage to the story in the OT. I'll take TFA as a fun if lightweight "greatest hits" adventure over that crap any day.
 
TLJ easily for me, though I did enjoy TFA. I just prefer the fresher story, Johnson's imagination, and the things it has to say about religion and the SW universe in general.
 
Jedi

Jedi - 4.5/5
Awakens - 4/5

The last 45 minutes of TLJ are maybe the best (for me) in the saga. They certainly are the most emotional. That scene with Luke and Leia...

I tried to rewatch Awakens before Jedi, but I didn't get a chance to. I caught up with it a few weeks after Jedi. I'm kind of glad I did. Both films compliment one another extremely well. I'm also convinced that JJ's "mystery box" wasn't meant to be taken as such (for the first time in his career). Rey's parentage isn't that much of a question thanks to that scene between Maz and her. And Snoke, as much as it might infuriate some people, I don't think was ever meant to be substantial. I also didn't find it to be as much of rehashing of A New Hope this time around. The parallels are there, but it didn't bother me as much.

Jedi gets knocked down a little for me because of Canto Bight. Not because it's bad, but because I find it to be only good in a film with so much great. The production design and JW's theme for Rose are great though.

I think some people who don't like Jedi will come around to it once they have the opportunity to watch them back-to-back.

These two don't quite live up to the OT, but I also never had that expectation. If JJ can stick the landing, I think Disney will have a very fine trilogy on their hands.
 
I would have been affected much more emotionally by Luke and Leia if Luke had actually gotten the spine and decency to talk to her in person, instead of just doing a Force video chat. That's a cheap move even for far lesser things than having given up on her son without trying to help him, ignored a new dark lord and his empire, and left them all to deal with it on their own. Breaking up over a text is classier.
 
TLJ easily for me, though I did enjoy TFA. I just prefer the fresher story, Johnson's imagination, and the things it has to say about religion and the SW universe in general.

I got to disagree with this descriptor; TLJ is not a fresh story. It's just as, if not more, derivative of its OT predecessor, with the original elements being the perspective and tone of certain elements, most of which are subversive and therefore intrinsically built on a core of previous films, but without supplying the dramatic fulfillment a good subversion needs.

I mean, when no one comes to the aid of the Resistance on Crait, leading to them being reduced to a new Rebellion instead of a Republic Alliance force, that's nothing new; that's shoving the OT's status quo into the ST without even bothering to tackle the ways the situation would naturally change after the fall of the Empire. It's a nonsensical storytelling choice whose purpose is to "hype" us up because its Rebels vs Empire again, though this time with the First Order flanderized into incompetents beyond that of the Rebels Imperials.

Rey's parentage being revealed as inconsequential is basically the pale and boring reversal of the Vader reveal; it doesn't really change the character or the situation she's in. She was the scavenger girl becoming a Jedi before, and she's still the scavenger girl becoming a Jedi afterwards. Her twist fails to really do anything new with her; the core reason the Vader reveal in ESB did was because it changed the way the protagonist viewed himself, the world, and the antagonist, but TLJ just has her repeat a scene from TFA for an entire film.

TLJ shows how *not* to ape the pursuit of the Falcon in ESB. ESB setup the conundrum from early on by focusing on Han's maintenance being repeatedly interrupted and worked to show the Empire pursuing with all the objective responses you would expect, and then highlighted Han's skills and desperation with frantic and chaotic maneuvers through asteroid fields. TLJ depends on an inconsistent application of its own rules and on making the villains colossal idiots, all to maintain an inherently uninteresting slow speed pursuit across a whopping two dimensions. And rather than base this story off organic character interaction aboard the ship, we depend on a badly written character in Holdo to setup a twist that, frankly, is pathetic and aggravates the film's other problems.

We also have a far easier to spot betrayal coming a mile away, because the film wastes the time and talents of three good actors setting up a convoluted scheme that will fail because the slimy guy recruited from prison sells out the dumb Resistance plan just like you'd expect him to.

And while the film tries to setup something with Rey and Ren, it again falls into failure by refusing to show how Rey would almost have to react to any outreach from Kylo, and for effectively spinning in circles while keeping both characters static.

TLJ is basically a pale, pale copy of ESB, but with a more pessimistic outlook that it refuses to properly think out and exploit.
 
I would have been affected much more emotionally by Luke and Leia if Luke had actually gotten the spine and decency to talk to her in person, instead of just doing a Force video chat. That's a cheap move even for far lesser things than having given up on her son without trying to help him, ignored a new dark lord and his empire, and left them all to deal with it on their own. Breaking up over a text is classier.

Hey, something I hadn't thought of before. He kisses her in that scene. Actually physically interacts with her (his hologram doesn't do anything like it does when Kylo "stabs" him). Is she doing it back to him?
 
I got to disagree with this descriptor; TLJ is not a fresh story. It's just as, if not more, derivative of its OT predecessor, with the original elements being the perspective and tone of certain elements, most of which are subversive and therefore intrinsically built on a core of previous films, but without supplying the dramatic fulfillment a good subversion needs.

I mean, when no one comes to the aid of the Resistance on Crait, leading to them being reduced to a new Rebellion instead of a Republic Alliance force, that's nothing new; that's shoving the OT's status quo into the ST without even bothering to tackle the ways the situation would naturally change after the fall of the Empire. It's a nonsensical storytelling choice whose purpose is to "hype" us up because its Rebels vs Empire again, though this time with the First Order flanderized into incompetents beyond that of the Rebels Imperials.

Rey's parentage being revealed as inconsequential is basically the pale and boring reversal of the Vader reveal; it doesn't really change the character or the situation she's in. She was the scavenger girl becoming a Jedi before, and she's still the scavenger girl becoming a Jedi afterwards. Her twist fails to really do anything new with her; the core reason the Vader reveal in ESB did was because it changed the way the protagonist viewed himself, the world, and the antagonist, but TLJ just has her repeat a scene from TFA for an entire film.

TLJ shows how *not* to ape the pursuit of the Falcon in ESB. ESB setup the conundrum from early on by focusing on Han's maintenance being repeatedly interrupted and worked to show the Empire pursuing with all the objective responses you would expect, and then highlighted Han's skills and desperation with frantic and chaotic maneuvers through asteroid fields. TLJ depends on an inconsistent application of its own rules and on making the villains colossal idiots, all to maintain an inherently uninteresting slow speed pursuit across a whopping two dimensions. And rather than base this story off organic character interaction aboard the ship, we depend on a badly written character in Holdo to setup a twist that, frankly, is pathetic and aggravates the film's other problems.

We also have a far easier to spot betrayal coming a mile away, because the film wastes the time and talents of three good actors setting up a convoluted scheme that will fail because the slimy guy recruited from prison sells out the dumb Resistance plan just like you'd expect him to.

And while the film tries to setup something with Rey and Ren, it again falls into failure by refusing to show how Rey would almost have to react to any outreach from Kylo, and for effectively spinning in circles while keeping both characters static.

TLJ is basically a pale, pale copy of ESB, but with a more pessimistic outlook that it refuses to properly think out and exploit.

Good post, I agree with your points. It's certainly derivative of the OT (some RotJ in there as well) but with a lot of "gotcha" moments. "oh you thought this was important or was going to lead somewhere new? Gotcha!".

Breaking tropes or expectations at some points are good, that keeps people guessing. Doing all the time though, while not really advancing anything in any real sense, becomes terribly anti-climactic.

As you say, Rey just repeats the conundrum before her in TFA and it doesn't lead anywhere that changes the character, she remains bland with the crutch of being instantly good at everything (which is not really a character trait). They do hint at something with Kylo, but they end up with the exact same situation between each other as in TFA. Kylo, who actually was built up to be interesting in TFA, doesn't go anywhere with his character. We learn almost nothing new that explains the core of the character, we just delve into one moment which just touches on things superficially. Not even him killing Snoke changed him in any relevant way. Especially not since Snoke wasn't very hands on in TFA so we're still stuck with Kylo and Hux running things (just without the mandatory reporting scenes), none of them which seem wiser or more powerful than before.

Another thing I've been thinking about, which is not meant as a specific criticism against TLJ or new SW but more of a general thought about Hollywood, is that despite that we have a new insurgence of big blockbuster roles for women, have we really seen big female characters that actually distinctly play on them being female as characters? When I think about it we have a lot of women roles that could very easily be gender-swapped without changing hardly anything, or that even have their main traits be traditionally male in nature. Of course it's good that more gender-neutral roles go to women as well, but it would feel even more empowering if women really played up feminine traits.

I'm not sure how you write that myself though. What are the distinctly feminine traits? Perhaps that's something that people don't agree on? I do think that someone like Beatrix Kiddo was written to have some more distinctly feminine aspects but still being highly badass, but surely there are other roads to that goal as well.
 
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Hey, something I hadn't thought of before. He kisses her in that scene. Actually physically interacts with her (his hologram doesn't do anything like it does when Kylo "stabs" him). Is she doing it back to him?

In the episode of the Star Wars Show that discusses the Easter eggs in the film, they mention that when Luke puts the dice in Leia’s hand, that’s when she realizes that he’s not actually there. You can see her look up at him when it happens like she’s realized something was off.
 
I would have been affected much more emotionally by Luke and Leia if Luke had actually gotten the spine and decency to talk to her in person, instead of just doing a Force video chat. That's a cheap move even for far lesser things than having given up on her son without trying to help him, ignored a new dark lord and his empire, and left them all to deal with it on their own. Breaking up over a text is classier.

I know...a Jedi Master using the Force? What’s up with that?? :dry:
 
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