The 90's....worst decade for comics?

[Chris Wallace]

I never read Pitt; I think there was a crossover with him & the Hulk and I read that.

Just for the heck of it, I'm gonna talk about some things I enjoyed from the 90's. Sure there was a lot of nonsense but I can't condemn the entirety of the decade, as it was the period that I first began seriously collecting:
Marvels
Electric Superman (I know I'm in the minority here, but I found it an interesting change. I think the problem with Superman is he's been around so long, fans tend to develop a been there/done that attitude, but if you tamper with the formula they cry foul)
The return of the Green Goblin (the Clone Saga was a small price to pay, IMO)
The Spider-Man/Batman crossovers
Nightwing striking out on his own
Tim Drake-particularly when he got his own book
Jim Balent's Catwoman
Amazing Fantasy 16-18
Fatal Attractions (although the aftermath lasted WAY too long)
The Scarlet Spider (before they painted themselves into a corner and took it in an absurd direction)
Punisher/Batman (Bruce, NOT Jean Paul)
Azrael
Professor Hulk
Ghost Rider

 

[Heretic]

I gave up on Image before Pitt came out, so I never read it.

I'm grateful that I had one of the best comic shop owners in the country. My brother was buying comics (mostly DC's !mpact line) and I decided to get in on the action. The day I walked in the store happened to be the day Youngblood was released, so my entire collection ended up being Image books. Eventually I simply could not stand to buy anymore crap, so I told my shop owner that I was dropping all of my comics and wouldnt be back again. He asked me to give an indie title a shot...Madman. I bought the first two miniseries out of loyalty to the store. That changed my view on comics entirely, and I returned the next day looking for more indies. He sold me the entire (up to that point) of Bone, Tales Of The Beanworld and the Strangers In Paradise miniseries. After that I almost exclusively bought indie titles. I did get into a lot of the Vertigo books though.

 

[Haff]

I dont care what anyone says, i was enjoying the hell outta spawn when it first came out....then again i was like 8 years old at the time so....

Heck, I know how you feel, I thought the cookie monster was the **** when I was 4.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I like sensorship, so the Comics Code never really bothered me. It was outdated and a little too overbearing, but mostly I liked it.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, I don't think it's just the censorship issue, since it also seemed like the whole point of it was for a bunch of companies to ban together and take out a legit competitor who was outselling them at the time...

 

[TimBisley]

I haven't heard a lot of people be in favor of censorship. Having a rating system is fine, but actual censorship should never be an option.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, that sucks... but I'm wondering and am too lazy to do research on it... but wasn't the comics code deal a government thing due to the concern of the effects of comics on young people? I didn't think the comic companies had much to do with it.

 

[Tron Bonne]

To be honest, I really don't know for sure, but I was going by what Heretic was saying. Though, I do not it wasn't an official government thing, it was something within the industry, just spurring by that

 

[Drz]

Yeah the goverment started controlling the comics heavily thanks to people such as... Eh the writer who claimed Batman and Robin are gay and so forth. Hence Batman and others eventually STOPPED fighting HUMAN criminals because the mere thought of a human doing crime was wrong, thus Batman became a space cop.

Once the vietnam wars started and protests/hippies started to give the finger to the goverment. DC and Marvel decided also to just do more darker stories, and thus Bronze Age was born.

 

[Tron Bonne]

No, it wasn't the government, the Comics Code started within the industry. It was spurred by government cases, I believe, but it wasn't directly governed by the government. It was like the video game or movie industry rating systems now.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Good to know. But I'll admit, I miss the good ol' days of "Golly Gee Willikers" and when nowhere would you see the word Flick for fear the "l" and the "i" would look too much like a "u".

I just personally liked it when comics were all ages when I wouldn't have to consider what's in a comic before letting my daughters look at the pictures or try reading them. And really, who wants to get a person into comics with "Marvel Age"? But that's just me.

 

[Heretic]

As Tron stated, the Comics Code was not a government forced issue at all.

EC Comics were dominating the market with their horror titles...superheroes were DEAD.

Fredric Wertham wrote Seduction Of the Innocent, which was a ridiculous diatribe against all comics, crime, superhero...you name it. He asserted that the comic stories made kids want to kill people, or fly out of their window like Superman or other stupid things.

The comic books companies saw this as a great opportunity to win back their market share. They could not compete with EC on a level playing field, so the Comic Code was born, and the guidelines basically were banning whatever EC happened to be doing. They specifically banned words like Crime, Horror and Terror...and those happened to be in the titles of EC's most popular books. Oddly enough, Marvel published Terror Inc without any problem from the Comics Code. The government had nothing to o with these decisions, and it is a permanent stain on the industry.

As far as comics being for all-ages. NO medium is for all ages, so why should comics? You have tv shows for children, and late night soft core porn for adults. You have G-Rated movies...and R-rated films. Comic books should not be seen as something that should universally appeal to children any more than any other medium. There are plenty of child friendly comic books, and other comics that you really shouldnt be showing to people under 18. Unlike people like Frank Miller, I am not completely opposed to a ratings system for comics. Clearly a young child shouldnt be buying Omaha The Cat Dancer and Cherry Poptart for instance...and at the moment I would have little issue with an industry standard of not selling those books to children (not enforced by law).

 

[kguillou]

I may be opening a can of worms here but i really wish people would stop undermining the intelligence of kids and feel the need to censor everything for them. We have this diluted idea in our heads that if kids are exposed to mature material then its going to corrupt them forever, which is completely false. When i was 6 years old my favorite movie was Terminator 2. That movie was as violent and mature as they get at the time and i loved it, and so did many other kids apparently. You couldnt go into a Toys R US back then and not see Terminator 2 toys and action figures. Kids ate it up. Batman TAS is another example. Even though it was a batman cartoon, it was very dark and mature for its time, heck even by today's standards there were some very disturbing elements in that show. But, again kids ate it up and it became extremely popular.

My point is, comics are no different. There's no reason why kids cant read the same stuff we read. If its good and enjoyable to us, then i think kids will appreciate it too. Granted, i dont think a 5 year old would get much out of say, Watchmen, or Y the Last man, but i wouldnt be opposed to letting them try it.

 

[random_havoc]

I agree, especially because I was a HUGE fan of PITT.

Dale Keown (well known Hulk artist) would come out with one issue every 6 months, sometimes I'd literally wait years and then look for them and realize I only had to look forward to 3 whole issues.

Yeah, Pitt was awesome. I still go back and re-read that. If Image had been able to keep a decent shipping schedule and didn't feel the need to make sweeping changes to every series' status quo every 10 issues I think there'd be a big 3 right now instead of big 2.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I may be opening a can of worms here but i really wish people would stop undermining the intelligence of kids and feel the need to censor everything for them. We have this diluted idea in our heads that if kids are exposed to mature material then its going to corrupt them forever, which is completely false. When i was 6 years old my favorite movie was Terminator 2. That movie was as violent and mature as they get at the time and i loved it, and so did many other kids apparently. You couldnt go into a Toys R US back then and not see Terminator 2 toys and action figures. Kids ate it up. Batman TAS is another example. Even though it was a batman cartoon, it was very dark and mature for its time, heck even by today's standards there were some very disturbing elements in that show. But, again kids ate it up and it became extremely popular.

My point is, comics are no different. There's no reason why kids cant read the same stuff we read. If its good and enjoyable to us, then i think kids will appreciate it too. Granted, i dont think a 5 year old would get much out of say, Watchmen, or Y the Last man, but i wouldnt be opposed to letting them try it.

I'm not as worried about the violence, provided it isn't too gorey, as much as nudity and language. Nudity because it should be the parents job to explain that stuff, not comics, and language because kids pick up what they see and read... and if they read comics with bad language regularly then chances are they're going to take that to school and get themselves in trouble with it. Kids aren't dumb, but they aren't smart either... let's be honest here. There's a reason they aren't self suficient at the age of 7.

As far as comics being for all-ages. NO medium is for all ages, so why should comics? You have tv shows for children, and late night soft core porn for adults. You have G-Rated movies...and R-rated films. Comic books should not be seen as something that should universally appeal to children any more than any other medium. There are plenty of child friendly comic books, and other comics that you really shouldnt be showing to people under 18. Unlike people like Frank Miller, I am not completely opposed to a ratings system for comics. Clearly a young child shouldnt be buying Omaha The Cat Dancer and Cherry Poptart for instance...and at the moment I would have little issue with an industry standard of not selling those books to children (not enforced by law).

While I'd personally prefer an all ages approach to all comics, just my own personal tastes, I do understand that not everyone is like me and that everyone should have the type of comics they prefer. So I do think that the rating system is a good compromise.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I may be opening a can of worms here but i really wish people would stop undermining the intelligence of kids and feel the need to censor everything for them. We have this diluted idea in our heads that if kids are exposed to mature material then its going to corrupt them forever, which is completely false. When i was 6 years old my favorite movie was Terminator 2. That movie was as violent and mature as they get at the time and i loved it, and so did many other kids apparently. You couldnt go into a Toys R US back then and not see Terminator 2 toys and action figures. Kids ate it up. Batman TAS is another example. Even though it was a batman cartoon, it was very dark and mature for its time, heck even by today's standards there were some very disturbing elements in that show. But, again kids ate it up and it became extremely popular.

My point is, comics are no different. There's no reason why kids cant read the same stuff we read. If its good and enjoyable to us, then i think kids will appreciate it too. Granted, i dont think a 5 year old would get much out of say, Watchmen, or Y the Last man, but i wouldnt be opposed to letting them try it.

I was kind of going with what you were saying until this. There's no way someone should really even entertain letting a five year old read something like Watchmen. Way too dark for them, and they probably wouldn't really understand it anyway, there has to be some cutoff point

 

[Mace Dolex]

The 90's ahh how I remember them, I had just come back to the U.S. after 4 years in Ecuador and came just in time for the whole Jim Lee/Todd McFarlane/Rob Liefeld explosion in comics, and Wizard magazine was the "in" thing when it came to reporting about comics.

I think about the good thing about comics in the 90's was that it opened up new ventures for more comic based animated shows and live action movies even if some sucked (Judge Dredd, Tank Girl, Spawn) and there was a comic book store in every corner.

Thankfully I never followed the whole IMAGE craze, I know naive greedy people were buying up multiple copies of which can be easily bought now in the dollar bins at conventions.

 

[terry78]

Hell, there are grown ass people that can't deal with Watchmen and the like.

 

[Anubis]

We call them idiots.

 

[Heretic]

I believe the examples of Watchmen and Y The Last Man arent appropriate for the discussion.

Instead, let's use my examples of Omaha The Cat Dancer and Cherry Poptart...books filled with sex...or something like Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers which is all about drug use.

If you don't believe in any form of limits to what kids can buy...then you must support the idea of 5 year old children reading something like that.

I have been speaking out against the Comics Code in this thread...and I stand by that. However, X Rated movies do not get wide distribution in theaters and Blockbuster stores like other movies...they dont show penetration or extreme violence on television. While I think that kids should have the ability to be exposed to mature, intelligent content...X-rated comic books simply should not get the same distribution and sales access as other comics.

The problem is that any self imposed ratings system WILL effect news stand distribution. If Archie and Scrooge McDuck gets a G, and X-Men gets an R...newstands will undoubtedly order the G (or PG) titles. Then again...if X-Men were an R (and let's face it...the X-Men comic is much more "adult" than the movies) then what would Preacher be? Then again...if you want hard R rated comics, maybe you should go to a comic shop instead of looking at the grocery store next to the candy bars...

The best thing to do is to have a community of comic shop owners that know their product and actually pay attention to what people are trying to buy....but that will never happen.

 

[Mace Dolex]

When it came to the X-Men comics even after Byrne had left early in 1991 IMO the stories by Steve Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza were really good, the whole Age Of Apocalyse, X-Cutioner Song were some of the best from the 90's.

If anything I think the success of the first X-Men ruined the entire decade of the 2000's for the X-Men where even if I pick up any X-book today I don't recognize anybody, who is in what team now.

 

[Dread]

As some have mentioned, trying to determine a "worst decade" for comics isn't easy. While the Golden Age is looked at fondly for all the characters created, the high sales and so on, a lot of the stories themselves were drivel. The 1950's saw superhero comics in general take a dirt nap for many years. The Silver Age is considered a turning point for comics, but they still had a great way to go.

The 90's, like any decade, had it's strengths and demerits. There were good runs of many comics during that period, both within and without the "big two". You had far more competition from companies that weren't Marvel or DC than you have now. The brick road to recognition for 21st century films began in the 90's - would Fox's "X-MEN" in 2000 done as well as it did if kids didn't grow up with the cartoon every Saturday morning on Fox Kids for five years (plus two of syndication)? The Batman animated series inspired better in the Batman films from Chris Nolan.

If the 90's had anything, it had tacky commercialism. Comics seen as stock investments, endless overprint runs, hologram, foil, and variant covers. The DEATH OF SUPERMAN was the sort of "event" success that DC and Marvel would always try to imitate. Prices rose, Marvel went bankrupt, and the entire market crashed in '94, helped in no way by the spazzing over DEATH OF SUPERMAN. I would say the worst legacy of the 90's is that it has possessed and entranced the big two that it's excesses can and should be repeated, regardless of the time or the price, when instead those things should be learned from and avoided, not repeated.

There were a lot of terrible stories, but every decade has a slew of them. Even 2000-2009 has an endless stream of horrible stuff, and unlike the 90's extremes, bad stories in the 21st century tend to take themselves of the utmost seriousness. I got into comics more in the 90's (I mean in 1990, I would have been eight), and while there was a lot of bad stuff, there were still things I liked. I left comics by the end of the 90's, though, during high school (from 1996-2000).

If the 90's are the worst decade for comics, I wouldn't say it was for all the bad stories or x-treme art or even for Image. I would say it is because to this day the people who run Marvel & DC are convinced that bubble can be inflated that big again and repeat many of the errors. I will also say that there seem to be fewer new character franchises created and maintained since the 90's. The only one I can think of off hand are the Runaways.

 

[kguillou]

Yet its sad to think that today comics sell a fraction of what they did in the 90's. Kids just aren't interested into comic books anymore. Its all about video games nowadays. I see kids with Nintendo Ds' in their hands all the time and yet i cannot remember the last time i saw a kid reading a comic book. When i was a kid in the 90's, thats all me and my friends did at lunchtime was read comics and exchange them with each other. Again, say what you will about that decade but kids were heavily into the medium then.

Heck, when i was collecting comics as a kid, i didnt even go to the comic book store for my monthly fix, my local Pharmacy had a whole shelf of the newest comics and thats where i'd go every month to buy em. Comic Book distribution was at an all time high back then and then suddenly, all the stores disappeared. I guess thats a casualty of the market crash, but i really do miss those days when it was so easy to get into comics.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That's the thing. Back then comics were targeted for kids and sold at prices that kids could pay or get parents to pay, and available in places where kids and parents can pick them up.

Nowadays they're written for older audiences, are $3-$5 per issue, and are hard to find if you don't intend to walk into a comicbook shop. People get older and lose interest or die, but where's the new readers coming from? They have to actually go out of their way to become comicbook fans, and really, to me that's poor marketing. I don't know much about that aspect of the industry but it just seems to me like there's a better way to go about it.

 

[terry78]

The only time I see little kids reading the books nowadays is in Borders or something where they get them off the rack and flip through while their parent is reading something else. And it's always the ones that are like parental advisory.